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The Trinity

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
There are 0 original manuscripts in existence.
Then why did Abraham, Job, Moses, David, Elijah, Daniel Isaiah, Etc all serve a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah)-- every Israelite that served the true God served a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah)
As do we. God is one in Being, one in Essence, one and undivided. No Christian denies that, nor have we ever denied that.

The fact that we don't have the first copies of the NT is no problem--at least, I hope it isn't a problem for someone who claims that the Bible is God's exact and complete message to mankind. The survival of the first-ever copies of the NT books is less of a problem for me than it is for you.

This is the God served by Paul, Peter, Matthew, Mark, etc,etc even Jesus--Jesus was taught a single being God named YHWH(Jehovah) in the synagogues his first 30 years. The one Jesus calls God--John 20:17, rev 3:12

The facts of history and Jesus' own words contradict a trinity god.
It seems the Apostles got a different impression of their own experiences and their Master's words than you did.
 
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icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Paul makes an interesting statement at Romans 1:19,20
"because that which is known about God is evident among them; for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made…."
If what Paul writes here is true this creates a problem for those who believe in the trinity..
How come there is no mention of the trinity in any writings until the 5th century if God’s nature was known since the creation of the world?


BigRed

The thing is that God says
"He created alone, by himself"
Only God is our Rock
Only God is Savior
I will not share my Glory with Another
No one is even close to being like God
Only God can forgive sins
Only God is Immanuel
Only God is worthy
Only God is First and Last
Only God is the Mighty One
Only God is Beginning and End
Only God is Alpha And Omega
Only God is the Root of David
Only God is Light
The list goes on and on....

Yet Jesus is all of these. So we can either be like the Jews and deny Jesus as claiming equality with God, we can believe he is God, or we can make excuses for all of these passages...

If God’s nature was known since the creation of the world, how come God’s chosen people, the Jews didn’t seem to know anything about a trinity?

Well according to the father, the jews didnt know the difference. The Father tells us that is was Jesus as their Rock. Herbrews 1:10-12 with PS102:25-27 and that we are not to be ignorant anymore 1 Cor 10:1-4 in whom they worshiped as God day and Night was also Jesus.

How come none of the prophets in the Hebrew scriptures ever warns Israel about the trinity in any of the prophetic writings?

When we look back into the OT texts, we see how the Trinity exist. Let Us Create in Our Image... Isa 44:6-8 we see both Jehovah and his redeemer "jehovah our righteousness" (Jer 23:5,6) Speaking as one God and saying only God(They) are First and Last... I dont have time and you probably dont care, but its all through out the bible

The prophets seem to cover every other topic but they never say …. Stop believing in just ONE GOD and believe in the trinity.

You define God without even knowing... We do believe in One God, but we define that One God as revealed through out scriptures as we see it. That This One God expressed himself through the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

His ways and thoughts are far above our ways and thoughts....
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Michael came to earth and was called Jesus as a mortal

Thats your personal Interpretation. please provide some passages so we can look at them. It is the Christian belief that God didnt say to any of the angels that you are my son (Heb 1:5) and The Father did not subject the world to any angel (Heb 2:5)

God would never come into the middle of wickedness, he is holy,holy,holy.
Thats your personal belief. The bible says Jehovah will send Jehovah to save us (Hosea 1:7)
We read that John the baptist prepared the way for Jehovah (Mat 3:3 with IS 40:3)
Jer 23:5,6 calls Jesus "Jehovah our Righteousness"
The Father tells us at Hebrews 1:10-12 that Jesus is Jehovah
1 Cor 10:1-4 says not to be ignorant of who Jesus is to the Jews that knew this to be Jehovah.
Closing that Rev 22:12-16 we see Jesus saying He is both the Root and Offspring of David, the Alpha and Omega.

To say you know what God wouldnt do is very dangerous because you are not God... All things are possible. God created all of this and he knows how to fix it.

In Love
 
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icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
If Jesus truly possesses all the qualities and attributes of God (which must, by the way, include the fact that God is Uncreated, eternal and without beginning, and possessing the indivisible divine nature and divine essence)

Very good point. Does their image of God fall short of God?
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
As you said it above, 'Jesus is the Mirror of God', who 'is the image of God'.

In another words, The image of God is Manifested in a Mirror. This Mirror AND the Image inside of it together is Jesus. Is this fair?

Dont forget that the Eternal Word (Jesus) had to empty himself to become this mirror on earth for us. (However you see this mirror) But before, was God and with God. Jehovah our Righteousness.

1Co 13:12
Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

I guess we will all find out...
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
I've never understood it either. Jesus is God, but at the same time he is a separate person from God the Father, but wait, if Jesus is not God the Father, then that means he is a separate God, but wait, there is only one God in Christianity. The Holy Spirit is also God somehow, but it still isn't God or Jesus either, so it must be a 3rd God, but wait, there is still only one God in Christianity. It is all really confusing, and makes absolutely no sense.

It's how you define God in the 1st place. Most people have an image of God in their head and from that they dont understand. Is God one unit or is God unmeasurable? We believe God Expressed Himself as Father, as Jesus, and as the Holy Spirit. As I have used Gods creation, the Universe, to show that there is One Universe, yet consists of Time, Matter, and Space. Can we say that Space is not what makes the universe or Time or Matter? All 3 Harmonize together to complete what we know as the universe.

1 Cor 12:12-26 says our bodies are made up of many parts but still remain 1 body. Can the eye say to the brain, i dont need you? Can the Father say to the Son or the Holy Spirit, I dont need you to be God? Can God be God without The Ertenal Word of Life(Jesus) or the Holy Spirit or the Father? Think about it... Can God be God without The Father or The Son or The Holy Spirit?

In Love
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
But for some reason mainstream Christians have believed God is 'illogical', to justify Trinity doctrine.
But the fact is, there is no such a thing found in Bible that teaches God is illogical. On the contrary, according to Bible God is the Truth. How could the Truth be illogical?

1Co 13:12 Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.fn All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
The verses that shows Christ was a Mirror of God. In another words Christ was an exact representation of God, but not God Himself who has preexistence.

What Religion are you or who do you fellowship with?

What do you do with passages in the NT that quote Jesus as being God of the OT. For example: Hebrews 1:10-12 the Father quotes a passage of God in the OT and applies it directly to Jesus saying he was the one spoken about as well...

I do not see how one can believe Jesus Christ has no preexistence...

in Love
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
What Religion are you or who do you fellowship with?

What do you do with passages in the NT that quote Jesus as being God of the OT. For example: Hebrews 1:10-12 the Father quotes a passage of God in the OT and applies it directly to Jesus saying he was the one spoken about as well...

I do not see how one can believe Jesus Christ has no preexistence...

in Love

I quote from Baha'i Scriptures for you:

"Know thou of a certainty that the Unseen can in no wise incarnate His Essence and reveal it unto men. He is, and hath ever been, immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived. From His retreat of glory His voice is ever proclaiming: “Verily, I am God; there is none other God besides Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. I have manifested Myself unto men, and have sent down Him Who is the Day Spring of the signs of My Revelation. Through Him I have caused all creation to testify that there is none other God except Him, the Incomparable, the All-Informed, the All-Wise.” He Who is everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men can never be known except through His Manifestation, and His Manifestation can adduce no greater proof of the truth of His Mission than the proof of His own Person."


"The door of the knowledge of the Ancient Being hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, closed in the face of men. No man’s understanding shall ever gain access unto His holy court. As a token of His mercy, however, and as a proof of His loving-kindness, He hath manifested unto men the Day Stars of His divine guidance, the Symbols of His divine unity, and hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of His own Self. Whoso recognizeth them hath recognized God. Whoso hearkeneth to their call, hath hearkened to the Voice of God, and whoso testifieth to the truth of their Revelation, hath testified to the truth of God Himself. Whoso turneth away from them, hath turned away from God, and whoso disbelieveth in them, hath disbelieved in God. Every one of them is the Way of God that connecteth this world with the realms above, and the Standard of His Truth unto every one in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. They are the Manifestations of God amidst men, the evidences of His Truth, and the signs of His glory."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 46-49
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Thats your personal Interpretation. please provide some passages so we can look at them. It is the Christian belief that God didnt say to any of the angels that you are my son (Heb 1:5) and The Father did not subject the world to any angel (Heb 2:5)

Thats your personal belief. The bible says Jehovah will send Jehovah to save us (Hosea 1:7)
We read that John the baptist prepared the way for Jehovah (Mat 3:3 with IS 40:3)
Jer 23:5,6 calls Jesus "Jehovah our Righteousness"
The Father tells us at Hebrews 1:10-12 that Jesus is Jehovah
1 Cor 10:1-4 says not to be ignorant of who Jesus is to the Jews that knew this to be Jehovah.
Closing that Rev 22:12-16 we see Jesus saying He is both the Root and Offspring of David, the Alpha and Omega.

To say you know what God wouldnt do is very dangerous because you are not God... All things are possible. God created all of this and he knows how to fix it.

In Love



you just twist what is being said-- Is Jehovah God? Hebrews doesn't say that Jesus is Jehovah--verse 9 teaches Jesus has a God. Jehovah doesn't have a God--Jesus does= reality.
I know God well.
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
I feel that being that Jesus is the image of God and the Son of God, and represents God, that he can be referred to by all the things that God is except Almighty God the Father. Jesus is the Son. He is the Christ, who God sent to redeem man from his sins.

When you say, "Almighty God the Father" notice that this wont be found in the New Testament. Im not even sure its in the OT either... What Im trying to say is this is defined inside your head. What the Jews saw as "Almighty God" or "YHWH" of the OT we Christians see as "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" in the New Testament. For example, if a Jew read Psalms 102:25-27 they would without any question say this is Almighty God (YHWH). So why does the Father say that this is also of Jesus at Hebrews 1:10-12? Why even bring it up if Jesus isnt some how more than what you think? Why even quote passage of God Almighty (YHWH) of the OT and apply any passage directly to Jesus? Why.... If Jesus is not God then this would not be needed.

Why even write 1 Cor 10:1-4 and say that the One every Jew knew as God Almighty(YHWH) in the OT was also Jesus? Why....

I do not think that being the image of another makes him the other, but a representation of the other. Jesus' message was from God the Father, and therefore originally the Fathers message, being brought to us by God's Son Jesus. Bringing this message does not make him God.
Dont forget that Jesus had to empty "Himself" before he could be humbled as you see above. That the Father and writers of the NT wanted us to see that this one, Jesus, who we see as humbled and a Servant is also YHWH of the Old Testament. That our God truely Saved us in the person Jesus Christ.

I understand why you believe as a trinitarian, and I understand it as much as anyone can understand something that seems a "mystery" according to most trinitarians.
1Cor 13:12 says we cannot fully know everything...
1Co 2:7 says the Mystery of God was Hidden until Jesus

What I need is for you to see how and why there are some like myself that do not believe the trinity and why. It doesn't mean that you must accept my belief if you do understand it, anymore than I have to accept yours, and it does feel that you are moving heaven and earth to get those that believe differently to accept your belief. This may not be your intention but it is how it seems to be.
i understand your belief and hope and pray that we will see each other in the New Heavens and Earth. (as with Slo and many others) I believe those that worship Satan and say there is no God are in big Trouble and need saved more than anything... However, think and pray about it. If Jesus did Return and we both where in front of Jesus, What would you be doing? I would be exactly like Thomas, on my knees saying "MY Lord and My God"...

If thats what you mean by trying to get others to believe, well, we are on a page called "Trinity" dont forget. Many come here and bash what I hold as truth... (fine Lines we all have) I have never said you are anything but a good person that Loves Jesus. Im just trying to show you (on a Trinity Page) why i see what I see and with great passion...

I can not and do not have time to reply to every point that you have made
i Understand. This isnt a battle of who wins or looses. Its a place to express our beliefs and why we believe them. I hope you have seen growth in my postings and more love... I feel as if God puts me in front of alot of JW and similar. Just yesterday I had a 2 hour talk with a LDS at work. They are lovely people, but we disagree on allot too. Many JW and LDS think the same thing, The Trinity is from the Devil...? Now I find that hard to believe. That the Devil would want people Worshiping and looking to the Image of God as God...

Anyway, you believe that God is of three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and I believe that God is the Father, God of Jesus and us, that Jesus is his Son, and the Christ, not a trinity, and that isn't going to change, That is just how it is.
There use to be a time that we didnt believe anything... But to express the Trinity in a more acceptable way, I would say I believe in a God who is My Father, My Savior, and fellowships with me by the Holy Spirit.

Gods peace be with you too
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Dont forget that the Eternal Word (Jesus) had to empty himself to become this mirror on earth for us. (However you see this mirror) But before, was God and with God. Jehovah our Righteousness.
Jesus had empty Himself of what?

1Co 13:12
Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

I guess we will all find out...
I have already explained my point of view in my previous posts for Shiranui117. Please refer to it.

But I also quote from Baha'i Scriptures for you:

"Whatever proceeded from the tongue of the Son was revealed in parables, whilst He Who proclaimeth the Truth in this Day speaketh without them. " ~ Baha'u'llah

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, Pages 54-67
 

icebuddy

Does the devil lift Jesus up?
:facepalm:

I think I meant Rev 4:11 CJB

11 “You are worthy, Adonai Eloheinu,
to have glory, honor and power,
because you created all things —
yes, because of your will they were created
and came into being!”

Who is Lord and Who is God? Dot forget that you and many with the same belief keep posting 1 Cor 8:6 that there is only One Lord... (It says One God the Father and One Lord Jesus)
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
1Co 13:12 Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.fn All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

Jesus was the Manifestation of Jehovah, but not the incarnation of Jehovah. Please note the difference!
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Jesus was the Manifestation of Jehovah, but not the incarnation of Jehovah. Please note the difference!
Manifestation and incarnation are in this case synonymous; Jesus is the manifestation BECAUSE He is the Incarnation.

Do I have to bring up John 1 again? And does icebuddy need to bring up Hebrews 1:10-12 again?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Manifestation and incarnation are in this case synonymous; Jesus is the manifestation BECAUSE He is the Incarnation.

Do I have to bring up John 1 again? And does icebuddy need to bring up Hebrews 1:10-12 again?

Jesus is called 'image of God' according to Scriptures. But the Scriptures never call the Father, the 'image of God'. The Father is always called God and Lord. Please Note! Also Note that God is invisible, but Jesus is Not, and God said 'I do not change'. Therefore it was not God who 'changed' himself and made himself visible as 'incarnation'. No. He created a Mirror (Jesus), and 'Manifested' His Word and Attributes in this Mirror, hence it is written 'the Word became flesh'.
Also please note that if You say Jesus was fully God incarnation, then you end up having Two Gods. One is the Father in Heaven and another on earth Jesus. And if you add Holy Spirit you get Three Gods, and this is contrary to the Scriptures which says 'our Lord, God is One'.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Jesus is called 'image of God' according to Scriptures. But the Scriptures never call the Father, the 'image of God'. The Father is always called God and Lord. Please Note! Also Note that God is invisible, but Jesus is Not, and God said 'I do not change'. Therefore it was not God who 'changed' himself and made himself visible as 'incarnation'. No. He created a Mirror (Jesus), and 'Manifested' His Word and Attributes in this Mirror, hence it is written 'the Word became flesh'.
Yet the Word is God--John 1:1. And God's attributes, such as infinity, omniscience, omnipotence, omnibenevolence, eternality, infinite perfection, freedom from sin, etc. are all things that can only properly belong to God. So if you say that Jesus is the Word and Attributes of God, then He is God.

Plus, there is nowhere in the Scriptures that states that Jesus is a created being. He is begotten, but not created. Jesus is also called God and Lord in the Scriptures.

Also please note that if You say Jesus was fully God incarnation, then you end up having Two Gods. One is the Father in Heaven and another on earth Jesus. And if you add Holy Spirit you get Three Gods, and this is contrary to the Scriptures which says 'our Lord, God is One'.
No, there is one God. The Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, and the Holy Spirit is fully God. All three Persons of the Trinity also are the one God. The Divine Essence is neither duplicated nor divided between the Three.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
.... So if you say that Jesus is the Word and Attributes of God, then He is God.
Yes, when you see the image of the Sun in the Mirror, you can say 'it is the Sun'. Because the Sun becomes manifested in the Mirror, likewise Jesus was like a Mirror, who image of the Sun of Truth became manifested in Him.

Plus, there is nowhere in the Scriptures that states that Jesus is a created being. He is begotten, but not created. Jesus is also called God and Lord in the Scriptures.
Yes, this is also true about many other Prophets in Bible. It is not like for every single Prophet mentioned in Bible, it says, God created Moses, God created Abraham,...God created Jesus.


No, there is one God. The Father is fully God, the Son is fully God, and the Holy Spirit is fully God. All three Persons of the Trinity also are the one God. The Divine Essence is neither duplicated nor divided between the Three.
We speak of One God and His image. We do not speak of two Gods or Three Gods. There is One God whose image was manifested in Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
 

Shiranui117

Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
Premium Member
Yes, when you see the image of the Sun in the Mirror, you can say 'it is the Sun'. Because the Sun becomes manifested in the Mirror, likewise Jesus was like a Mirror, who image of the Sun of Truth became manifested in Him.
Except, Jesus Himself is the Sun of Righteousness (Malachi 4:2). Plus, no creature could possibly perfectly reflect God's attributes, because God is so far above every creature, and His perfection is limitless. If Jesus COULD perfectly reflect all of God's attributes, then this must logically mean that He is above creation.

Yes, this is also true about many other Prophets in Bible. It is not like for every single Prophet mentioned in Bible, it says, God created Moses, God created Abraham,...God created Jesus.
You're assuming that because the prophets were mere mortals, that Jesus is too. But the Bible says otherwise; it says that Jesus is uncreated.

We speak of One God and His image. We do not speak of two Gods or Three Gods. There is One God whose image was manifested in Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
We Christians also speak of one God, not two gods or three gods. We speak of one God Who is three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
In my previous posts I did establish some points from Bible itself. Please refer to them. But briefly I showed:

1. Jesus Himself said He was speaking Figuratively.
2. Bible and early Christians prior to Trinity describes Jesus as Mirror of God, not incarnation of God.
Figurative in all things? Apparently even the resurrection. Here's a partial quote from the Baha'i book Some Answered Questions
[FONT="]Question.—What is the meaning of Christ’s resurrection after three days? [/FONT]

[FONT="](W)e say that the meaning of Christ’s resurrection is as follows: the disciples were troubled and agitated after the martyrdom of Christ. The Reality of Christ, which signifies His teachings, His bounties, His perfections and His spiritual power, was hidden and concealed for two or three days after His martyrdom, and was not resplendent and manifest. No, rather it was lost, for the believers were few in number and were troubled and agitated. The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it. [/FONT]
[FONT="]…Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ [/FONT]
But I don't think that is what most Christians believe
·
The Resurrection of Jesus is central to Christianity.

  1. 1 Corinthians 15:12-19: “Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.”
    1. So this does not show why as Christians why we believe the physical resurrection of Jesus, but it shows why we believe that the resurrection of Jesus is essential to Christianity.
I don't think it's fair to argue against the Trinity when Baha'i don't even believe in the Christian definition of the resurrection. Of course you don't believe he's God. You don't even believe he rose from the dead.

And as far as early Church fathers and the Trinity, here is a few of the quotes I found at this one site.
·[FONT="]150 AD Justin Martyr "The Father of the universe has a Son, who also being the first begotten Word of God, is even God." (Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch 63) [/FONT]
[FONT="]170 AD Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21).[/FONT]
·[FONT="]180 AD Irenaeus "But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues..." (Against Heresies, Book II, ch. 30, section 9) [/FONT]
·[FONT="]180 AD Irenaeus "Christ Jesus is our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King." (Against Heresies, Book I, ch. 10, section 1) [/FONT]
·[FONT="]190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father." (Stromata, Book V, ch. 14) [/FONT]
·[FONT="]190 AD Clement Of Alexandria "When [John] says: 'What was from the beginning [1 John 1:1],' he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-equal with the Father. 'Was,' therefore, is indicative of an eternity without a beginning, just as the Word Himself, that is the Son, being one with the Father in regard to equality of substance, is eternal and uncreated. That the word always existed is signified by the saying: 'In the beginning was the Word' [John 1:1]." (fragment in Eusebius History, Bk 6 Ch 14; Jurgens, p. 188) [/FONT]
·[FONT="]200 AD Tertullian "All the Scriptures give clear proof of the Trinity, and it is from these that our principle is deduced...the distinction of the Trinity is quite clearly displayed." (Against Praxeas, ch 11) [/FONT]
·[FONT="]225 AD Origen "[/FONT][FONT="]And that you may understand that the omnipotence of Father and Son is one and the same, as God and the Lord are one and the same with the Father, listen to the manner in which John speaks in the Apocalypse: "Thus saith the Lord God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."(3) For who else was "He which is to come" than Christ? And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Saviour is also God; so also, since the Father is called omnipotent, no one ought to be offended that the Son of God is also cared omnipotent." ([/FONT][FONT="]De Principis[/FONT][FONT="], On Christ, Book 1, Ch 2) [/FONT]
·[FONT="]225 AD Origen "Saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." (De Principis, Book I, ch. 3, section 2)
[/FONT]·[FONT="]225 AD Origen "The holy Apostles, in preaching the faith of Christ, treated with the utmost clarity of certain matters which they believed to be of absolute necessity to all believers...The specific points which are clearly handed down through the Apostolic preaching [are] these: First, that there is one God who created and arranged all things...Secondly, that Jesus Christ himself was born of the Father before all creatures...Although He was God, He took flesh, and having been made man, He remained what He was, God" (De Principis, Preface, sections 3 - 4) [/FONT]
[FONT="]325 AD Council of Nicaea I "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things, visible and invisible" ... "We believe . . . in our one Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God, the only-begotten born of the Father, that is, of the substance of the Father, God of God, light of light, true God of true God, born, not made. One in being with the Father. Through him all things were made . ." (The Creed of Nicaea).[/FONT]
 
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