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The Trinity

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I am not a trinitarian.
Trinitarians says Jesus is God, but they also say Jesus is not the Father.
They make three different gods.


Jesus isn't the Father--- there would have been 0 justice( deut 32:4) involved if --God came to earth. Gods word teaches--Jesus was made--lower than the angels( as a mortal)
Satan wouldnt have bothered trying to get Jesus to do an act of worship( sin) to him at his weakest mortal point( 40 days fasting) in the wilderness if he was God--but justice had to be involved as well---- a sinless--mortal existence--This is how a mortal does it all-Acts 2:22---just like it worked with Moses.
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
Jesus isn't the Father--- there would have been 0 justice( deut 32:4) involved if --God came to earth. Gods word teaches--Jesus was made--lower than the angels( as a mortal)
Satan wouldnt have bothered trying to get Jesus to do an act of worship( sin) to him at his weakest mortal point( 40 days fasting) in the wilderness if he was God--but justice had to be involved as well---- a sinless--mortal existence--This is how a mortal does it all-Acts 2:22---just like it worked with Moses.

All humans have sinned.

Jesus was no mere human, for he was without sin.

Jesus experienced temptation for us so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
Jesus isn't the Father--- .
Jesus is the Father.

God says that people will call Jesus God, Father, and the Holy Spirit, and that is what I call him.

Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Why do you have a problem with my calling Jesus the names that God gave him?
In the Old Testament, God calls HIMSELF THE FIRST AND THE LAST. That is exactly what Jesus calls himself in Revelation.

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

JESUS calls HIMSELF the FIRST and the LAST in Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Read Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Jesus calls himself the SAME EXACT name that God calls Himself. So then, why do you have a problem with my calling Jesus God?
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Ask your teachers--how come my post was 100% facts of history--in catholicisms own encyclopedia it states--- The formulation--one god in three persons-- was not solidly established , not fully assimilated into the Christian life, prior to the end of the 4th century--new catholic encyclopedia( 1967)volume XIV-- page-299

oh after the councils headed by a pagan false god worshipping king. That explains the trinity. Fact--not a single servant served a trinity in the ot and through Jesus first 30 years-- where he kept attending a religion teaching a false god--- I seriously doubt it. --LOOK
You are speaking of the traditional doctrine of the trinity, that it was not solidly established or fully assimilated until prior to the end of the 4th century.

I don't believe anyone would argue that fact.

However, belief in the concept of the trinity was around from the beginning. This can be seen in many quotes written by the early church fathers long before the Roman catholic church came into existence or the Council of Nicea took place in 325 A.D.


Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
Jesus is the Father.

God says that people will call Jesus God, Father, and the Holy Spirit, and that is what I call him.

Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Why do you have a problem with my calling Jesus the names that God gave him?
In the Old Testament, God calls HIMSELF THE FIRST AND THE LAST. That is exactly what Jesus calls himself in Revelation.

Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 48:12 "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.

JESUS calls HIMSELF the FIRST and the LAST in Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.

Read Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Jesus calls himself the SAME EXACT name that God calls Himself. So then, why do you have a problem with my calling Jesus God?


[Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.]

This verse does not say that Jesus IS God or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Power of God. God's wisdom and power. Remember when Jesus got baptized and the Holy Spirit descended upon him? Are you saying that some person fell on Jesus out of the sky? Wouldnt the Holy Spirit be Jesus's father too? hmmmm.

Isaiah 9 tells us what he WILL be called in the kingdom age. Mighty God (El in Hebrew) God's Mighty power. He will be the power of God. You have to remember that God gave him all power of heaven and earth. Jesus bare's the Father's name. He is not God. He is not the Father. The bible dose not say that. You do.....

God is greater than Jesus. Jesus NEVER says that he is God or the father. He also gave God glory in everything!!!
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
While the motivation for this trinity concept is the glorifacation of man at Yahweh's expense, the wrestling of scripture references to seemingly support this concept is entirely based on a misunderstanding of this principle of God manifestation. Yahweh reveals (manifests) Himself through others..... throught angels, through Christ and through the faithful. Yahweh is a separate, distinct, elevated, supreme being. He chooses to reveal Himself through others, indirectly. He does not reveal Himself openly. He veils Himself. He veils Himself as an act of love and a reflection of divine princples. When we read of God directly interacting with man it is always throught his servants, such as angels... without exception.

We are told Yahweh appears to Abraham, but it is made clear that these are angels who were sent by Yahweh. Also in Exodus, in the burning bush, an angel calls himself the LORD God (YAHWEH Elohim) . Another time in the tent of meeting with Moses, an angel was there who bore God's name and God gave him the power to forgive sins. That is God manifestion. God manifesting Himself into individuals.

Same with Jesus. Does scripture tell us that God was working through Jesus??? Yes, it does.....
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born for us, a son will be given to us, and the government will be on His shoulders. He will be named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.]

This verse does not say that Jesus IS God or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Power of God. God's wisdom and power. Remember when Jesus got baptized and the Holy Spirit descended upon him? Are you saying that some person fell on Jesus out of the sky? Wouldnt the Holy Spirit be Jesus's father too? hmmmm.
Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God that can be given without limit
Isaiah 9 tells us what he WILL be called in the kingdom age. Mighty God (El in Hebrew) God's Mighty power. He will be the power of God. You have to remember that God gave him all power of heaven and earth. Jesus bare's the Father's name. He is not God. He is not the Father. The bible dose not say that. You do.....
You never answered my question.
Tell me, since God calls Jesus Father, God, and the Holy Spirit…why do you go against me when I call Jesus these things?
God is greater than Jesus. Jesus NEVER says that he is God or the father. He also gave God glory in everything!!!
Do you believe you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you?
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
While the motivation for this trinity concept is the glorifacation of man at Yahweh's expense, the wrestling of scripture references to seemingly support this concept is entirely based on a misunderstanding of this principle of God manifestation. Yahweh reveals (manifests) Himself through others..... throught angels, through Christ and through the faithful. Yahweh is a separate, distinct, elevated, supreme being. He chooses to reveal Himself through others, indirectly. He does not reveal Himself openly. He veils Himself. He veils Himself as an act of love and a reflection of divine princples. When we read of God directly interacting with man it is always throught his servants, such as angels... without exception.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter. God wants us to search for Him.

You are resisting the truth about Jesus.

We are told Yahweh appears to Abraham, but it is made clear that these are angels who were sent by Yahweh. Also in Exodus, in the burning bush, an angel calls himself the LORD God (YAHWEH Elohim) . Another time in the tent of meeting with Moses, an angel was there who bore God's name and God gave him the power to forgive sins. That is God manifestion. God manifesting Himself into individuals.

Same with Jesus. Does scripture tell us that God was working through Jesus??? Yes, it does.....

Jesus came from heaven. God made everything through Jesus. Jesus became as a Man. Who do you think this was before coming to earth, an angel?

Again, since God says Jesus will be called God, Father, and the Holy Spirit...why do you have a problem with me calling him that?

Please do not forget the other question I asked you, and that is, do you have the Holy Spirit living inside you?
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
Sure I would be happy to answer your questions.

[Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God that can be given without limit]
No, Jesus is the Son of God. The Holy Spirit (or spirit) is from God. It is God's power and wisdom. It is like the sun's rays.

[Tell me, since God calls Jesus Father, God, and the Holy Spirit…why do you go against me when I call Jesus these things?]
Because you take things out of context. God does not call Jesus father or the Holy spirit. That just doesnt make sense. But it make sense to you because you bring trinity beliefs into scripture. The thing is, is that you dont believe in God manifestation. God working with (manifesting) people. We know that Jesus bares the name of God. Same with angels too. And us.

[Do you believe you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you?]
I believe that God's Spirit is in me, yes. And that just goes to show you that it is not a person. Your making it into a person.

[Jesus came from heaven. God made everything through Jesus. Jesus became as a Man. Who do you think this was before coming to earth, an angel?]
Jesus did come from heaven. I agree with you. Not phyiscally, but in God's plan. Jesus did not pre-exist. He wasnt in heaven, then came down. He was born and then he was sent out into the world. Jesus didnt exist before his birth. Look at John, he came from God. Did he come down from heaven? No. Look at the manor in the wilderness, it came down from heaven from God. Was it actually in heaven? No, it just appeared on the ground, But it did come from God.

[Again, since God says Jesus will be called God, Father, and the Holy Spirit...why do you have a problem with me calling him that?]
Because your missing the point and the meaning. We do not elevate Jesus to God. Scripture never does that. The apostles never did that too. Read that beginnings of Paul's leters. He always separates them both.

God manifestation. God working through someone.

Let us make man in our image and likeness. That was God and the angels. Not Jesus. Jesus did not exist yet. God manifesting Himself in a multitude. Elohim. In Hebrew it says, and the Elohim said.......
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
]
Sure I would be happy to answer your questions.

No, Jesus is the Son of God. The Holy Spirit (or spirit) is from God. It is God's power and wisdom. It is like the sun's rays.

Because you take things out of context. God does not call Jesus father or the Holy spirit. That just doesnt make sense.
You are not telling the truth. The scripture SAYS that he will be called God, Father, and Holy Spirit.
I believe that God's Spirit is in me, yes.
You just said that you have the Spirit of God in you. Now, this is important: do you have the Spirit of Jesus in you?
Jesus did come from heaven. I agree with you. Not phyiscally, but in God's plan. Jesus did not pre-exist. He wasnt in heaven, then came down. He was born and then he was sent out into the world. Jesus didnt exist before his birth. Look at John, he came from God. Did he come down from heaven? No. Look at the manor in the wilderness, it came down from heaven from God. Was it actually in heaven? No, it just appeared on the ground, But it did come from God.
You are going against the scriptures. The scriptures say JESUS came from heaven.
If Jesus were a man who became God, then how is it that Jesus CAME FROM HEAVEN?
No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven--the Son of Man. See John 3:13.
God sent his Son into the world. John 3:17.
Jesus came from the Father. See John 1:14.
Jesus came down from heaven. See John 6:38. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
John 6:62
Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.
Because your missing the point and the meaning. We do not elevate Jesus to God. Scripture never does that. The apostles never did that too. Read that beginnings of Paul's leters. He always separates them both.

God manifestation. God working through someone.
God elevated Jesus.
Let us make man in our image and likeness. That was God and the angels. Not Jesus. Jesus did not exist yet. God manifesting Himself in a multitude. Elohim. In Hebrew it says, and the Elohim said.......
Jesus is the Word of God; that was the Word speaking. That was Jesus speaking.
 
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Sonofason

Well-Known Member
]

You are not telling the truth. The scripture SAYS that he will be called God, Father, and Holy Spirit.

You just said that you have the Spirit of God in you. Now, this is important: do you have the Spirit of Jesus in you?

You are going against the scriptures. The scriptures say JESUS came from heaven.
If Jesus were a man who became God, then how is it that Jesus CAME FROM HEAVEN?
No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven--the Son of Man. See John 3:13.
God sent his Son into the world. John 3:17.
Jesus came from the Father. See John 1:14.
Jesus came down from heaven. See John 6:38. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
John 6:62
Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
John 17:24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

God elevated Jesus.

Jesus is the Word of God; that was the Word speaking. That was Jesus speaking.
I have to admit, I see things a little differently, however insignificant that difference might be.
I do not see Jesus as the Father. I see Jesus as the physical manifestation of the Father, indeed, the Word of God.

A man's word is not the man. However the word of a man exemplifies, and manifests the will and spirit and sometimes even the power behind the man.

If I were talking on the phone to someone and if you were standing nearby, you might hear the voice, the spoken word of the person I'm speaking to. You might ask, "is that John". I might say "yes, it is John." I'd ask, "how did you know?" And you might respond, "well, I heard his voice.

Indeed, the word of a man is not the man, but in the same sense, the word of a man, if he is an honest man, is indeed a perfect reflection of the Man Himself.

Before God spoke, His Word, His Son resided with Him, and in Him. Once God spoke creation manifested. Nothing that exists exists without God's Son, because everything that exists was spoken into existence by God, and He did it through His Son.
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
I have to admit, I see things a little differently, however insignificant that difference might be.
I do not see Jesus as the Father. I see Jesus as the physical manifestation of the Father, indeed, the Word of God.
I do not see the difference in what I have been saying.

Jesus is the Father.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus is the Rock, and the Rock Fathered us. See Deuteronomy 32:18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Jesus says those who overcome will be his CHILDREN. See Revelation 21:7. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

Jesus says when you SEE him, you have SEEN the Father.

See John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


A man's word is not the man. However the word of a man exemplifies, and manifests the will and spirit and sometimes even the power behind the man.
It almost sounds as if you contradicting yourself here.

Jesus says what comes out of our mouth is the overflow of our hearts.


If I were talking on the phone to someone and if you were standing nearby, you might hear the voice, the spoken word of the person I'm speaking to. You might ask, "is that John". I might say "yes, it is John." I'd ask, "how did you know?" And you might respond, "well, I heard his voice.

Indeed, the word of a man is not the man, but in the same sense, the word of a man, if he is an honest man, is indeed a perfect reflection of the Man Himself.

Before God spoke, His Word, His Son resided with Him, and in Him. Once God spoke creation manifested. Nothing that exists exists without God's Son, because everything that exists was spoken into existence by God, and He did it through His Son.
That is what God did after God created Himself the glorified (Spiritual BODY) of the Man Jesus. Jesus is the First and the Last. The body Jesus had First, is the resurrected body we all will receive last.

Jesus is God with a body. Jesus is called a Son because he comes forth from God.

Just as our children come forth from us.

However, Jesus is not a mere man that came forth from a mere man. Jesus is God made visible.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
You are speaking of the traditional doctrine of the trinity, that it was not solidly established or fully assimilated until prior to the end of the 4th century.

I don't believe anyone would argue that fact.

However, belief in the concept of the trinity was around from the beginning. This can be seen in many quotes written by the early church fathers long before the Roman catholic church came into existence or the Council of Nicea took place in 325 A.D.


Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).



Here is a guaranteed miscalculation to be very misleading done by the trinity scholars and theologians

Moses--wrote Genesis
Moses-- wrote the word Elohim
Elohim has more than the single meaning --gods in Hebrew--it as well could mean majesty( but pluralish in comparison to a mortal king) because God was king.

Moses--everyday of his existence while serving the true almighty God--served-YHWH(Jehovah) a single being mono God-- thus Moses would not contradict his lifelong belief by using--gods when he knew fully well--YHWH(Jehovah) was s single being mono God. He used it in the other use--majestic.
By teaching Moses used--gods in that spot are babblings of darkness.
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
I do not see the difference in what I have been saying.

Jesus is the Father.

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.

Jesus is the Rock, and the Rock Fathered us. See Deuteronomy 32:18. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

1 Corinthians 10:4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Jesus says those who overcome will be his CHILDREN. See Revelation 21:7. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

Jesus says when you SEE him, you have SEEN the Father.

See John 14:7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

John 14:9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?



It almost sounds as if you contradicting yourself here.

Jesus says what comes out of our mouth is the overflow of our hearts.



That is what God did after God created Himself the glorified (Spiritual BODY) of the Man Jesus. Jesus is the First and the Last. The body Jesus had First, is the resurrected body we all will receive last.

Jesus is God with a body. Jesus is called a Son because he comes forth from God.

Just as our children come forth from us.

However, Jesus is not a mere man that came forth from a mere man. Jesus is God made visible.
Yes, that is why I'm suggesting only the slightest nuance of difference in what we're saying. While the word of a man is not exactly the man from which the word came from, it exemplifies and is indeed a physical manifestation of the one it came from. It is what helps me understand the Trinity concept. We do not have different people or gods in the Trinity. We have three personifications of the same God. It explains how Jesus, the man, is capable of praying to and worshiping the Father, while being one in the same Entity.
 
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Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
Yes, that is why I'm suggesting only the slightest nuance of difference in what we're saying. While the word of a man is not exactly the man from which the word came from, it exemplifies and is indeed a physical manifestation of the one it came from. It is what helps me understand the Trinity concept. We do not have different people or gods in the Trinity. We have three personifications of the same God. It explains how Jesus, the man, is capable of praying to and worshiping the Father, while being one in the same Entity.
I believe that even Jesus' flesh was holy.
That is probably where our differences are?
 

katiemygirl

CHRISTIAN
Here is a guaranteed miscalculation to be very misleading done by the trinity scholars and theologians

Moses--wrote Genesis
Moses-- wrote the word Elohim
Elohim has more than the single meaning --gods in Hebrew--it as well could mean majesty( but pluralish in comparison to a mortal king) because God was king.

Moses--everyday of his existence while serving the true almighty God--served-YHWH(Jehovah) a single being mono God-- thus Moses would not contradict his lifelong belief by using--gods when he knew fully well--YHWH(Jehovah) was s single being mono God. He used it in the other use--majestic.
By teaching Moses used--gods in that spot are babblings of darkness.
Once again, you ignore my post. You do not address a single point.
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
No, I'm afraid we don't even differ there. I believe that everything about Jesus was and is holy.
Do you believe that we have a spirit, and are not just flesh? Do you believe that Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God?
 

Sonofason

Well-Known Member
Do you believe that we have a spirit, and are not just flesh? Do you believe that Jesus' Spirit is the Spirit of God?
I believe that we have a spirit, and that we are not just flesh. I also believe that Jesus Spirit is the Spirit of God, but that is because I believe that the Spirit of Christ was in perfect unity with the spirit of God. I also believe that the Spirit of God can reside in us. And I believe that if we would be perfectly Christlike, that the Spirit of Christ, that Spirit of God, and our spirits would be relatively indistinguishable from each other.

Perhaps you can explain these verses to me from your perspective.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(John 14:15-17)

Who is this "another Comforter" that Jesus is referring to. He says it like it is not exactly Himself, but someone else, "another Comforter" Who is this Comforter, this Spirit of Truth that Jesus is referring to? Why does He not say I will send you "My" spirit to comfort you?
 

Yes

Oh how I love the Word of God!
I believe that we have a spirit, and that we are not just flesh. I also believe that Jesus Spirit is the Spirit of God, but that is because I believe that the Spirit of Christ was in perfect unity with the spirit of God.
So then, is what you are saying is that Jesus has the spirit of a man, and that he merely became like God?
I also believe that the Spirit of God can reside in us.
Yes, the Spirit of God can reside in us. The Spirit of God does reside in those He saves..
And I believe that if we would be perfectly Christlike, that the Spirit of Christ, that Spirit of God, and our spirits would be relatively indistinguishable from each other.
Yes, we become like God. We become like CHRIST.
Notice that you said the Spirit of Christ, and the Spirit of God. Thus, you are calling the Spirit of Jesus the Spirit of Christ who is the Spirit of God. Is that not what you have just said?
Jesus’ Spirit is the Spirit of Christ who is the Spirit of God. There is only One Spirit.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;
Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
Perhaps you can explain these verses to me from your perspective.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
(John 14:15-17)

Who is this "another Comforter" that Jesus is referring to. He says it like it is not exactly Himself, but someone else, "another Comforter" Who is this Comforter, this Spirit of Truth that Jesus is referring to? Why does He not say I will send you "My" spirit to comfort you?
Jesus says “another” so that no one thinks that Jesus is speaking of himself in the flesh.
Jesus says that if we obey, then the Father and Jesus will live with us. How do you think that the Father and Jesus will live inside us? They are One and the same that is how.
Jesus says that he himself will live in us.
Since there is only One Spirit, that One Spirit is also the Spirit of Jesus Christ.
The Spirit of God, the Spirit of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three, and the three are One and the same
 
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