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The Trinity
- Thread starter Atruthseeker
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(Revelation 22:12-13 [NIV])
Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
and
(Revelation 22:20 [NIV])
He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
(Matthew 16:27 [NIV])
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
If Lord Jesus is coming soon, then He is the the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End and He is God.
(John 8:58 [TR])
ειπεν αυτοις ο ιησους αμην αμην λεγω υμιν πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι
You can see the difference, can't you?
γενέσθαι: Aorist middle infinitive
εἰμί: Present Active Indicative
Neither is it the same word, nor the same tense
(John 8:58 [KJV]) Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Actually it DOES work in Greek this way, I could get some references if anyone wants.
We can see that [πριν (before) + Infinitive ] can refer to past or present.
Greek Concordance: ???? (prin) -- 13 Occurrences
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icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Some here will say the Worship of Jesus is missunderstood or missused, And I am in agreement with them. However, i believe God has things in his bible to help us understand things and avoid traps of the Devil. That his Bible is truely alive and speaks to us. Let me explain to you how Gods word spoke to me and see if you can understand what has happend and how the word "Worship" has been used in error.
Why do people even care about the Worship of Jesus vs the Obesience of Jesus or the kissing of Jesus's hand, as one would pay to a human ruler or even his wife. The real reason is that we are to Worship Only God, so if we worship Jesus then we calling Jesus our God by the worship we render to him. What about the Bible, the same goes with the Bible. If the Bible states that Jesus is to be worshipped, then those that believe Jesus is God get the upper hand. but if we can proove Jesus isnt worshipped and a lesser correct way of honor is given, Then those that Belive Jesus is Created gain the upper hand.
So here we go... John who wrote the book of John, 1 john, & Revelation knew Jesus created all the angels and was better than any of the angels, correct. The Answer is without a doubt Yes. i am going to post a passage here to shed a bunch of light on the subject of Worship vs Obesience (lower than worship) The Question is this, did John Worship Jesus or Did John pay obesence (Less than worship) to Jesus?
Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 But he said to me, "Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."
Reader Pay attention! Ask yourself a question: Did John pay obesience (less worship) to Jesus who John knew created the angels and was better than any angel, and then try to Worship one of Jesus's creations in Rev 22:8,9? Dont forget this is Gods living word filled with cookies if you pay attention. There is No way John would have tried to Worship one of Jesus's Angels if he only rendered Obesience (Less Worship) to Jesus. Gods word is showing us that John did more that pay obeseince (Less Worship) to Jesus. In Fact, dont let the Devils plan to under value Jesus creep any futher into your mind.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four [and] twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Here we see The one on the Thrown and the Lamb both recieving Worship. What kind of worship? Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power. TRUE WORSHIP.
Jhn 5:23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Ask yourself: Do you honor Jesus with the same worship as you do the Father? The word honor is "To fix a value to". What would you do if in front of the Father and the Son? Would you worship the Father, turning your back on Jesus or would you do like the elders and just fall to your knees and honor them both with all your worship?
in Love,
tom
ps - What do you think the devil wants you to do? Worship Jesus or not?
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icebuddy
Does the devil lift Jesus up?
Outhouse,
i have read some of your posts and will pray for you. one thing you do not know is my relationship with Jesus and I will tell you that he is real and loves you very much. I am sorry that you have come the the conclussions that you have.
However, what do you believe, if anything?
Tom
outhouse
Atheistically
thats not what this debate thread is about.
this is about the trinity and the real history behind it, you may choose to ignore.
outhouse
Atheistically
I know that early hebrews that created your gods, became monotheistc roughly around 606BC during the period of second isaiah. The priestly redactor merged elohim and yawey together and monotheism was born. When yeshua died [and he is dead] the story of a teacher of judaism's theology grew by oral stories after his death, his popularity only grew after death as the theology grew around his story. No one agreed on how divine yeshua was because no one knew him or heard a word he had ever said. Only from the oral traditions do we get a peak at what his teachings may have been. 325 AD A roman emporer stopped the fighting between bishops and yeshuas divinity was now set in stone, this caused problems for the monotheistic traditions of ONE god. The concept of the trinity was born. Around 400AD the trinity dogma took hold and is still in place many christians today.
When as a child, I asked about the divinity of god and jesus and they explained it to me I lost all faith in religion at that very second because I knew only humans could screw up a deitys definition this bad. If you confuse a child with this who only asks "isnt he gods son" and then listen to the answers afterwards, all you can do is shake your head.
For the first part: you don't really have a proof and can't give one. But never mind.
For the second part: I already explained to you the meaning of "Son of God" here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2591693-post303.html
But you're obviously not willing to try to understand.
What do you think is the difference between these:
(John 5:17-18 [NIV]) Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
(John 19:6-7 [NIV]) As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!" But Pilate answered, "You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him."The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."
and this
(Isaiah 64:8 [NIV]) Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.
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outhouse
Atheistically
ancient men, whio never knew or met yeshua trying to deifne his divinity.
and equal is not part of. that little phrase they way it was worded can be taken many ways.
yes the son of god has nothing to do with the trinity and everything to do with polytheism
those are a allot of details for someone to write who wasnt there and never met or knew the yeshua charactor.
No kidding [insert facepalm here]
ancient man looked at their deity as a man
What I understood from your previous post is that you wanted an answer from the Bible, which I gave you.
It's sad that you formed a judgment as a child from something that you heard, and don't bother to question it.
outhouse
Atheistically
your taking the thread far and away from teh trinity with this.
It has nothing to do at all with the trinity.
You may want to do a bit of study on historical jesus, they use ALL avalible material to determine yeshuas historicity.
not just scripture.
in all the NT not a sinlge word was written by anyone witness to yeshau or his words or his actions. we have a trickle down effect to try and pick out REAL details but this can only be done after careful study.
the difference between the two of us is I question its origins and you take everything as truth including dogma added at a later date. I have a keen interest in scholarship and you a keen interest in the meaning of the words and proper translation.
I was replying to your question about "Son of God".
I will only remind you of "the Burden of Proof".
outhouse
Atheistically
burden of proof is on the one claiming a trinity.
they failed then and now. A roman emporer had to influence the fighting and bickering to get to definition of divinity that was forced at mans hands.
NO.
Who said this in a previous post:
" in all the NT not a sinlge word was written by anyone witness to yeshau or his words or his actions. we have a trickle down effect to try and pick out REAL details but this can only be done after careful study."
Who should give a proof?
You should.
But I already know your proof. -> "scholars say"
outhouse
Atheistically
Im sorry you do not follow mainstream middle of the road scholarships that are not biased.
So you say 'scholarship' again without giving proof.
outhouse
Atheistically
do your own work.
you keep bringing toothpics to a gunfight, trying to needle details that do not apply.
scripture does not teach the trinity because they [the unknown authors] had no concept of it at all. scripture is my evidence and proof.
reading into scripture and digging out your own personal interpretation is not valid history.
by the way, you already provided a link for me that states mark never knew or met jesus if he was the author [which he was never]. mark is the oldest of gospel and we know the mat and luke copied from mark and only had a small amount of original material.
stiop discounting modern scholarships