The Trinity

[Shermana]

this is simular to arguing algebra with a kindergardener at this point


you wont accept common knowledge :slap:

Okay so that's a refusal to provide a source.

Thanks for playing.

 

[outhouse]

I really wish you even read what you posted, it says absolutely nothing about El and YHWH being different beings. It's as if you forgot what you're talking. I don't deny that the Israelites fell into idolatry worshiping Ashtarah, but as any reader can note, that has nothing to do with the subject you're discussing. You're trying to prove that YHWH and El are different beings.

El is a Mesopotamian deity before Cannan.

Yahweh originates in Edom and the Shasu tribe prior to Israeli's


this is common knowledge, wake up!

 

[outhouse]

heres more from your boy Dever

Did God Have a Wife? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The core of the book lies in chapters 5 (“Archaeological Evidence for Folk Religions in Ancient Israel&#8221, 6 (“The Goddess Asherah and Her Cult&#8221, and 7 (“Asherah, Women’s Cults, and ‘Official Yahwism’&#8221. These chapters describe polytheistic religion in ancient Israel,



Maybe I need to look up the word polytheism for you.


YOU CANT HIDE FROM THE POLYTHEISTIC PAST, of ancient hebrews

 

[Shermana]

heres more from your boy Dever

Did God Have a Wife? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The core of the book lies in chapters 5 (“Archaeological Evidence for Folk Religions in Ancient Israel&#8221, 6 (“The Goddess Asherah and Her Cult&#8221, and 7 (“Asherah, Women’s Cults, and ‘Official Yahwism’&#8221. These chapters describe polytheistic religion in ancient Israel,



Maybe I need to look up the word polytheism for you.


YOU CANT HIDE FROM THE POLYTHEISTIC PAST, of ancient hebrews

Are you even reading your own posts? That in NO way backs your case that "El" and YHWH to the Israelites were different beings.

I don't deny that there was Idolatry among the Israelites, neither do I deny that the Israelites were Henotheist. I am a Henotheist.

At this point you have clearly demonstrated that you don't even read what you're posting, or you forget so quickly what you're trying to disprove in the first place. Newsflash: Even the BIBLE says that the Israelites went into idolatry and worshiped other gods of their neighbors. Big shock!!

Now do you plan on actually quoting something from Dever that actually backs your specific case that YHWH and "El" are different gods in scriptural sense or do you want to keep embarassing yourself?

 

[outhouse]

Are you even reading your own posts? That in NO way backs your case that "El" and YHWH to the Israelites were different beings.

I don't deny that there was Idolatry among the Israelites, neither do I deny that the Israelites were Henotheist. I am a Henotheist.

At this point you have clearly demonstrated that you don't even read what you're posting, or you forget so quickly what you're trying to disprove in the first place. Newsflash: Even the BIBLE says that the Israelites went into idolatry and worshiped other gods of their neighbors. Big shock!!

Now do you plan on actually quoting something from Dever that actually backs your specific case that YHWH and "El" are different gods in scriptural sense or do you want to keep embarassing yourself?

Look up the word POLYTHEISTIC

and then realize the first Israelis were all imigrants from somewhere else, ALL bringing their own deities to the early civilization.

 

[Shermana]

Okay, so I take it you are admitting that what you posted doesn't in any way back up what you're saying about El and YHWH being different beings to the Israelites (especially in the context of Psalms), nor does what I'm saying in any way clash with what you posted. And you have outright refused to demonstrate a single link showing that "Elohim" being used for angels was a "Cover-up". If it's such "Common knowledge" then you should have no problem finding a link to show that the use of "Elohim" for "Angels" was a later addition used to cover up Israel's Polytheistic (as opposed to Henotheistic) past.

 

[outhouse]

Okay, so I take it you are admitting that what you posted doesn't in any way back up what you're saying about El and YHWH being different beings to the Israelites (especially in the context of Psalms), nor does what I'm saying in any way clash with what you posted. And you have outright refused to demonstrate a single link showing that "Elohim" being used for angels was a "Cover-up". Now that's a conspiracy theory I don't buy into.

dont start with conspiracy theories you will loose


Your someone who thinks tectonic plates is evil science trying ti lie to people :slap:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)


In the Canaanite religion, or Levantine religion as a whole, Ēl or Il was the supreme god, the father of humankind and all creatures and the husband of the goddess Asherah as recorded in the clay tablets of Ugarit (modern Rās Shamrā - Arabic: رأس شمرا‎, Syria).


Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As the origins of Yahweh seem to lie to the southeast of Israel, in Edom and Midian or even further south, an alternative explanation looks for its etymology in South Semitic languages like Arabic rather than in Hebrew

 

[Shermana]

You're the one who said the use of "Elohim" to mean Angels was a big cover up, you're the one hawking a baseless conspiracy theory. I love a good conspiracy theory. I believe in many of them. And when I discuss them, I discuss the evidence and facts and claims about them.

But there's a reason why you refused each time to get a link to back your claim.

Now if you keep using Wikipedia as your link, and these articles on the subject I very much think were written by "liberal scholars", why don't you bother actually linking the citation so we can examine the details of the source material. These articles have talk pages with dissent like none other. We've been over this before. And the result is usually you continuing to post from the article and utterly refusing to address the issues of the talk page or the sources themselves.

 

[outhouse]

You're the one who said the use of "Elohim" to mean Angels was a big cover up, you're the one hawking a baseless conspiracy theory. I love a good conspiracy theory. I believe in many of them. And when I discuss them, I discuss the evidence and facts and claims about them.

But there's a reason why you refused each time to get a link to back your claim.

Now if you keep using Wikipedia as your link, and these articles on the subject I very much think were written by "liberal scholars", why don't you bother actually linking the citation so we can examine the details of the source material. These articles have talk pages with dissent like none other. We've been over this before. And the result is usually you continuing to post from the article and utterly refusing to address the issues of the talk page or the sources themselves.

LOL :slap:


oh so only liberals are allowed to post on wiki


Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Evidence of Israelite worship of Canaanite gods appears both in the Bible and the archaeological record. Respectful references to the goddess Asherah or her symbol, for example, as part of the worship of Yahweh, are found in the eighth century inscriptions from Kuntillet Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom, and references to the Canaanite gods Resheph and Deber appear without criticism in the original Jewish text of Habakkuk 3:5. While traditionally these words have been understood to be either Jewish words whose meaning has been derived from characteristics of these Canaanite deities[38] or references to demons,[39] some interpret these as evidence of Israelite recognition of these gods as part of the military retinue of Yahweh.[40] The "host of heaven" is also mentioned without criticism in 1_Kings 22:19 and Zephaniah 1:5. Though the "host of heaven" has traditionally been interpreted as either the stars/heavenly bodies or the host of angels/heavenly spirits depending on the context,[41] some again have interpreted this term to refer to a pantheon of Israelite gods.[42] The god El is also continually identified with Yahweh.[43]
Israel inherited polytheism from late first-millennium Canaan, and Canaanite religion in turn had its roots in the religion of second-millennium Ugarit.[44] In the 2nd millennium, polytheism was expressed through the concepts of the divine council and the divine family, a single entity with four levels: the chief god and his wife (El and Asherah); the seventy divine children or "stars of El" (including Baal, Astarte, Anat, probably Resheph, as well as the sun-goddess Shapshu and the moon-god Yerak); the head helper of the divine household, Kothar wa-Hasis; and the servants of the divine household, including the messenger-gods who would later appear as the "angels" of the Hebrew Bible.[45]
In the earliest stage Yahweh was one of the seventy children of El, each of whom was the patron deity of one of the seventy nations. This is illustrated by the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint texts of Deuteronomy 32:8–9, in which El, as the head of the divine assembly, gives each member of the divine family a nation of his own, "according to the number of the divine sons": Israel is the portion of Yahweh.[46] The later Masoretic text, evidently uncomfortable with the polytheism expressed by the phrase, altered it to "according to the number of the children of Israel"[47]
Between the eighth to the sixth centuries El became identified with Yahweh, Yahweh-El became the husband of the goddess Asherah, and the other gods and the divine messengers gradually became mere expressions of Yahweh's power.[48] Yahweh is cast in the role of the Divine King ruling over all the other deities, as in Psalm 29:2, where the "sons of God" are called upon to worship Yahweh; and as Ezekiel 8-10 suggests, the Temple itself became Yahweh's palace, populated by those in his retinue.[


Now please stop embarrassing yourself


maybe you could give us lessons on plate tectonics now

 

[Shermana]

oh so only liberals are allowed to post on wiki

That's not what I said. I said the article seems to be written by someone of this liberal mindset.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So I'm assuming you don't want to discuss the discussion/talk page then?

Evidence of Israelite worship of Canaanite gods appears both in the Bible and the archaeological record. Respectful references to the goddess Asherah or her symbol, for example, as part of the worship of Yahweh, are found in the eighth century inscriptions from Kuntillet Ajrud and Khirbet el-Qom, and references to the Canaanite gods Resheph and Deber appear without criticism in the original Jewish text of Habakkuk 3:5. While traditionally these words have been understood to be either Jewish words whose meaning has been derived from characteristics of these Canaanite deities[38] or references to demons,[39] some interpret these as evidence of Israelite recognition of these gods as part of the military retinue of Yahweh.[40] The "host of heaven" is also mentioned without criticism in 1_Kings 22:19 and Zephaniah 1:5. Though the "host of heaven" has traditionally been interpreted as either the stars/heavenly bodies or the host of angels/heavenly spirits depending on the context,[41] some again have interpreted this term to refer to a pantheon of Israelite gods.[42] The god El is also continually identified with Yahweh.[43]

How does any of that go against what I said?

Israel inherited polytheism from late first-millennium Canaan

No doubt that they often engagefd in idolatry of Canaanite deities. You have yet to prove that "El" and "YHWH" were different beings.

,

and Canaanite religion in turn had its roots in the religion of second-millennium Ugarit.[44] In the 2nd millennium, polytheism was expressed through the concepts of the divine council and the divine family, a single entity with four levels: the chief god and his wife (El and Asherah);

Still doesn't disprove anything I said, or that "El" simply means "The chief god" to the Canaanites the same way "Baal" means "lord".

the seventy divine children or "stars of El" (including Baal, Astarte, Anat, probably Resheph, as well as the sun-goddess Shapshu and the moon-god Yerak); the head helper of the divine household, Kothar wa-Hasis; and the servants of the divine household, including the messenger-gods who would later appear as the "angels" of the Hebrew Bible.[45]

No disagreement. You have yet to provide a link where "Elohim" meaning "angels" is a conspiracy. I've asked how many times now? But anyways, now we start to see where the article veers off into opinion land.

In the earliest stage Yahweh was one of the seventy children of El, each of whom was the patron deity of one of the seventy nations. This is illustrated by the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint texts of Deuteronomy 32:8–9, in which El, as the head of the divine assembly, gives each member of the divine family a nation of his own, "according to the number of the divine sons": Israel is the portion of Yahweh.[46]

Care to discuss the source? I have no problem that Deut 32:8-9 is about the "Sons of god" each being put over a nation. I DO have issue that somehow YHWH is one of these sons. Want to discuss either your source or the talk page? If not, oh well.

The later Masoretic text, evidently uncomfortable with the polytheism expressed by the phrase, altered it to "according to the number of the children of Israel"[47]

This I completely agree with. It was changed to not look HENOtheistic. I don't think you understand the difference between Henotheism and Polytheism though.

Between the eighth to the sixth centuries El became identified with Yahweh,

Let's discuss the source for this claim.

Yahweh-El became the husband of the goddess Asherah, and the other gods and the divine messengers gradually became mere expressions of Yahweh's power.[48] Yahweh is cast in the role of the Divine King ruling over all the other deities, as in Psalm 29:2, where the "sons of God" are called upon to worship Yahweh; and as Ezekiel 8-10 suggests, the Temple itself became Yahweh's palace, populated by those in his retinue.[

Unless you want to discuss the sources and talk page, it's moot.

 

[outhouse]

the same way you cannot accept tectonic plates you wont accept the family of deities worshipped by early hebrews

 

[SageTree]

................

 

[F0uad]

If one is to use the full intent of mathematical notation (including set theory) the correct notation would be 1 (is less than or equal to) 1+1+1 (which is less than or equal to 3).

If however, we use the full implications of mathematical theory as a projection of the G-dhead then we must deal with one very important notion form the ancient Hebrew description of G-d. That is the word “ehad” to describe the numerical “oneness” of G-d. If we assume the numerical singularity of “ehad” then the “oneness” of G-d becomes by definition the least common dominator of the whole. This would mean that G-d cannot be divided or differentiated into any “sub” persons or distinctions – such as “Father” “Son” and “Holy Ghost”.

If in contrast, “ehad” is plural unity, as in marriage when a man and a woman become “one flesh” then “ehad” does not assume the number theory definition of the “whole” or “counting” numbers and cannot be use as scriptural proof that G-d is singular. The point here is that according to all possible variant readings of “ehad” the “Biblical” interpretation of “one G-d” is contradicted in the doctrine of the Trinity.

Zadok

Here is the real answer Ahad or Wahad instead of Trinity.

 

[F0uad]

dont start with conspiracy theories you will loose


Your someone who thinks tectonic plates is evil science trying ti lie to people :slap:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)


In the Canaanite religion, or Levantine religion as a whole, Ēl or Il was the supreme god, the father of humankind and all creatures and the husband of the goddess Asherah as recorded in the clay tablets of Ugarit (modern Rās Shamrā - Arabic: رأس شمرا‎, Syria).


Yahweh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As the origins of Yahweh seem to lie to the southeast of Israel, in Edom and Midian or even further south, an alternative explanation looks for its etymology in South Semitic languages like Arabic rather than in Hebrew

Do you know how stupid your reasoning sounds...

So when some ''Jews'' were pagans, all ''Jews'' are/were pagans even now?

Its like saying Muslims are pagans because the Arabs before Mohammed(saws) also named there supreme-god Allah(swt) but then again Mohammed(saws) destroyed those mediators bringing them to one-ness, and each time we pray or do the testimony we have to mention the one-ness each time there is even a chapter speaking about ''Ahad''. Moses(p) taught people pure monotheism after the jews were worshipping the golden statue and before, he never said to those jews your worshipping right.

You should have researched into Paganism its not that they belief in a different god its that they use mediators between them and god.

If Judaism teaches pure monotheism (what i belief as a muslim) and can be proven by scriptual reference's ''if wanted''. Then who are you to say they are not, when you do not even comprehend the one-ness of god. :slap:

 

[URAVIP2ME]

the same way you cannot accept tectonic plates you wont accept the family of deities worshipped by early hebrews

As a nation what did the early Hebrews believe but what Deuteronomy [6 v4] said that their God was one. That was absolute monotheism which was a declaration of war against all polytheism.
No family of deities worshiped as there was in Egypt.

The confession of the oneness of God was a central part of the worship at the synagogue as expressed in the Shema prayer. The Shema prayer excluded the trinity, or triune of gods, as a violation of the Unity of God.

Satan tried to get Jesus to worship someone else besides Jehovah [Yahweh]
That enticement would be absurd if Jesus were part of the same God.
- Matthew 4 v 10; Deut. 6 v 13; Psalm 83 v 18

Jesus also directed non-Jews to worship YHWH, the Father, at John 4 vs 23,24.

 

[sojourner]

As a nation what did the early Hebrews believe but what Deuteronomy [6 v4] said that their God was one. That was absolute monotheism which was a declaration of war against all polytheism.
No family of deities worshiped as there was in Egypt.

The confession of the oneness of God was a central part of the worship at the synagogue as expressed in the Shema prayer. The Shema prayer excluded the trinity, or triune of gods, as a violation of the Unity of God.

Satan tried to get Jesus to worship someone else besides Jehovah [Yahweh]
That enticement would be absurd if Jesus were part of the same God.
- Matthew 4 v 10; Deut. 6 v 13; Psalm 83 v 18

Jesus also directed non-Jews to worship YHWH, the Father, at John 4 vs 23,24.

Except Deuteronomy and the Shema come waaaay later.

 

[outhouse]

Do you know how stupid your reasoning sounds...

So when some ''Jews'' were pagans, all ''Jews'' are/were pagans even now?

Its like saying Muslims are pagans because the Arabs before Mohammed(saws) also named there supreme-god Allah(swt) but then again Mohammed(saws) destroyed those mediators bringing them to one-ness, and each time we pray or do the testimony we have to mention the one-ness each time there is even a chapter speaking about ''Ahad''. Moses(p) taught people pure monotheism after the jews were worshipping the golden statue and before, he never said to those jews your worshipping right.

You should have researched into Paganism its not that they belief in a different god its that they use mediators between them and god.

If Judaism teaches pure monotheism (what i belief as a muslim) and can be proven by scriptual reference's ''if wanted''. Then who are you to say they are not, when you do not even comprehend the one-ness of god. :slap:

please dont embarrass yourself further :sleep:


jews equal pagan???

 

[outhouse]

As a nation what did the early Hebrews believe but what Deuteronomy [6 v4] said that their God was one. That was absolute monotheism which was a declaration of war against all polytheism.
No family of deities worshiped as there was in Egypt.

The confession of the oneness of God was a central part of the worship at the synagogue as expressed in the Shema prayer. The Shema prayer excluded the trinity, or triune of gods, as a violation of the Unity of God.

Satan tried to get Jesus to worship someone else besides Jehovah [Yahweh]
That enticement would be absurd if Jesus were part of the same God.
- Matthew 4 v 10; Deut. 6 v 13; Psalm 83 v 18

Jesus also directed non-Jews to worship YHWH, the Father, at John 4 vs 23,24.

there is no debate they worshipped a family of deities from the Canaanite and Mesopotamian influences.

very few people ever migrated from Egypt. There was never a exodus as written and moses has been deemed fictional by scholars

 

[Muffled]

I will in reply in red, shortly and wont go in details because this becomes a little annoying

God revealed himself in the old testament as the Father, in a body as Jesus and through His believers as the Paraclete.

Mt 11:27 All things have been delivered unto me of my Father: and no one knoweth the Son, save the Father; neither doth any know the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son willeth to reveal him.

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

These are not three beings because those filled with the Holy spirit are many beings but only one spirit fills them.

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God is one individual. He can't be divided. However He is omni-present. This gives the appearance of division but God is one thoughout His diversity. This takes on significant meaning when God as the Father speaks to Jesus, God the Son at His baptism. It appears that God is divided into Son and not Son but the truth is that God remains one within and without the Son.

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Yes the "persons" (not person as is usually understood but as a religious jargon term) are distinct in their revelation of God but not in their essence. The difference is not in essential being. God does not have a body but Jesus does and the Paraclete has a multitude of bodies. However the Spirit of God that resides in the body of Jesus and in believers is the samne spirit that is the Father. Eph 4:4 "one Spirit"

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He may believe in the Athanasian creed that talks about three persons but I do not. I can accept the Nicene Creed. The differences between Father and Son are due to the body not to the nature of God within the body. Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus said so Himself: Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one. It would be blasphemy to contradict Jesus since He is God in the flesh. (But of course that is circular reasoning because it is the statement of Jesus that He and the Father are one)

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John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[Muffled]

So what is a "person" exactly? How is it different than a manifestation in modalism? Unsurprisingly, it's the question that never gets answered by Trinitarians. It's not uncommon to see the term "person" used to describe the doctrine, but its rarer than rare to see it ever actually defined. Usually we get those "Water, ice, and steam" descriptions that are basically modalism. I think Trinitarians would be best just admitting that their doctrine and interpretations of verses are essentially Sabellianism with some Nicean wordplay tacked on, they should just join the Oneness Pentacostals, I think they have the best understanding of "Trinitarian" dogma.

As for the word "Lord", we see that the Greeks had the same habit of using the word "Lord" as we see it in English in replacement for the name, it can be difficult to determine when it applies to lower case "lord" like how David was called "Lord", and when it applies to the actual Holy name, but reading in detail, it doesn't seem Jesus ever shared the same usage of "LORD", and was only called "lord".

I challenge anyone to actually present a link that goes into detail of what "person" means without just using the term as for granted.

Also, as for Jesus being "fully divine", what does the word "Divine" actually mean? Is only The most high god (and He is called "Most high god" for a reason, because he's the highest of the gods) considered "Divine"? Are the "Angels" (called "Elohim" in the OT) not Divine? If they are, then thus it's not a problem for Jesus to be "Divine" as in "a god", a separate being, distinct from the Father, not a different "person" (whatever that actually means), but a distinct "being" altogether with a separate mind and soul altogether, but still a "divine being".

If anything the doctrine of the Trinity is based on some hollow wordsmithing, revisionist ideas of Old Israelite Theology, and twisted grammar.

There are three definitions in the dictionary 1. a human being 2. an entity having personailty 3. Religious Jargon to define the Doctrine of the Trinity

Most people think of the first definition when they hear the word person and the Trinity does not have three person by that definition. The Trinity does not have three persons by the second definition. That leaves the religious definition tht wants to consider the fact that figures of persons ie Father and Son should actually be termed persons even though they don't fit the standard definitions for person.

Jesus is a person by all three definitions. The Father only fits the last two definitions and the Paraclete fits the last two definitions. Since the Spirit of God that is the Father, is in the son and acts as the Paraclete, is one entity, all three are one person by the second definition.

I have been accused of being a modalist. A modalist IMO sees the Trinity as the second definition of person. It breaks down in its metaphor (characters played by the same person in a play). In a play there is one human being playing three characters but the Trinity has ony one human being in the Son and a multitude of human beings in the Paraclete, the two being different in that Jesus had only one Spirit (of God) in His body but believers have their own spirit as well as the Spirit of God in their bodies.

I have seen that metaphor and it breaks down as well. Water changes qualities according to temperature but God does not change qualities. God in a body is not God in a diffeent state because the body is not God in any way.