The Trinity

[kjw47]

The real darkness is ignorance. If one is going to take an opposing position on any subject, one must first have some sense of
clarity as to what exactly the opposition states. It is not the Jesus of history that is worshiped. By virtue of the resurrection of Jesus
it was revealed that God himself acted in Jesus, the Spirit of God can now rightly be understood also as the Spirit of Jesus taken up to God.

All worship is addressed to God, through the Son, in the Spirit. It is always God the father, the God of Israel who is worshiped.

Jesus isn't God--a pure lie misleading billions through history--- the trinity was created at Catholicism councils--they erred in translation--destroyed the originals--- Jesus and every real teacher of his in the nt--teaches--Jesus has a God-his Father--just like we do--John 20:17,rev 3:12--2Cor 1:3--1Peter 1:3--John at Rev 1:6------ truth.

 

[pearl]

Jesus has a God-his Father

Which implies relationship. There is 'dialogue' within God. "Let us make man" Gen 1:26, an I and a You. "the Lord said to my Lord"
Ps110 :1, and in Jesus' conversations with the Father. God as being is absolutely one. And in the one and indivisible God there is found the phenomenon of dialogue, an exchange of word and love. What is referred to as 'three Persons' is the reality of word and love in their attachment to each other. Not substances or personalities as we think of them, but the relatedness of the unity.

You only refer to the historical Jesus, where does the living Christ fit into your scenario? Or the Holy Spirit?

 

[kjw47]

Which implies relationship. There is 'dialogue' within God. "Let us make man" Gen 1:26, an I and a You. "the Lord said to my Lord"
Ps110 :1, and in Jesus' conversations with the Father. God as being is absolutely one. And in the one and indivisible God there is found the phenomenon of dialogue, an exchange of word and love. What is referred to as 'three Persons' is the reality of word and love in their attachment to each other. Not substances or personalities as we think of them, but the relatedness of the unity.

You only refer to the historical Jesus, where does the living Christ fit into your scenario? Or the Holy Spirit?

Let us( Jehovah and his master worker( Jesus-prov 8,1Cor 1:30) make man in our image( the capability of love and reasoning within)
prov 8:22--produced( created first and last--direct) me as the beginning( creation) of your way( creation)
grew especially fond of me(Jesus)


Every where--LORD( ALL CAPITOLS) the name Jehovah belongs--so it reads in reality--- Jehovah said to my lord.


They are one in purpose as it goes on to say--we all will be one.

 

[Sonofason]

Jesus was a mystery not yet revealed.

I agree.
It seems to me that there is a difference between that which makes a thing, and that through which it was made. Each time God had created something, He did so by speaking it into existence. The Son of God is the Word of God. I would suggest to everyone to try to take that as literally as they possibly can. A man is not necessarily the words that he speaks. But an honest man's word does indeed represent perfectly the man behind his word. A Word is a physical manifestation of the will of Him who has spoken.

John 1:3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Yes of course, through God's spoken Word, all things were made; without God's spoken Word, nothing was made, that has been made.

John 1:2
He was with God in the beginning.

Indeed God's Word was with God in the beginning. And then God spoke the Word, and God's Word accomplished God's will.

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.

This is a more difficult verse in my opinion. I'm not sure what it means to be "in" the world. I'm not sure what the "world" is exactly. It almost appears that God is Light, and the Son of Light is The Physical Universe. However when considered these things in this light, (no pun intended) we should recognize that light can become matter, and matter can become light. I and my Father are one. Indeed they are. Feel free to tear this to pieces, as I'd like to see the holes in it. The truth is certainly more important than any particular concept I can construct. If it is as it states in the Bible that God is Light (taking this literally for the moment), then in the beginning, God said, let there be Me. Later we see that God refers to Himself as "I am". I certainly can't explain it. Who can?

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Yes, one God, the Father, from whom all things came. And one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came.
Remember what God has done.

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places"
(Ephesians 1:17-20)

Here we see that our God is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. We see that our God is the Father of glory, and that God's glory is Jesus Christ. We see there is exceeding greatness in God's power, and that God wrought His might power in Christ. And we see that God raised Christ from the dead and set Jesus at His own right hand.

A cannot see how these two individuals can be considered the exact same entity.

Colossians 1:16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Indeed, from verses 13-15, we see we are speaking of Jesus, not God the Father.
"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"
(Colossians 1:13-15)

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

Of course, Jesus is the Word of God, through which the universe was made.

 

[Sonofason]

NONE other were Gods appointed king( Daniel 7:13-15)--Jesus was and they knew it from prophecy. They bowed in obeisance to A mortal Jesus.

Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, not to the Son. If you want to say a few kind words to the Son, that's great, but worship the Father.

 

[pearl]

Jehovah said to my lord.

I believe that Hebrew would translate Adonai -Lord.

 

[kjw47]

I believe that Hebrew would translate Adonai -Lord.

not where it wascapitolized--every scholar on--EARTH--knows 100% Gods personal name goes every single spot in ot where--GOD-LORD-- are all capitols.

Jehovah said to my lord.= 100% correct

 

[Yes]

I agree.
It seems to me that there is a difference between that which makes a thing, and that through which it was made. Each time God had created something, He did so by speaking it into existence. The Son of God is the Word of God. I would suggest to everyone to try to take that as literally as they possibly can. A man is not necessarily the words that he speaks. But an honest man's word does indeed represent perfectly the man behind his word. A Word is a physical manifestation of the will of Him who has spoken.


Yes of course, through God's spoken Word, all things were made; without God's spoken Word, nothing was made, that has been made.


Indeed God's Word was with God in the beginning. And then God spoke the Word, and God's Word accomplished God's will.


This is a more difficult verse in my opinion. I'm not sure what it means to be "in" the world. I'm not sure what the "world" is exactly. It almost appears that God is Light, and the Son of Light is The Physical Universe. However when considered these things in this light, (no pun intended) we should recognize that light can become matter, and matter can become light. I and my Father are one. Indeed they are. Feel free to tear this to pieces, as I'd like to see the holes in it. The truth is certainly more important than any particular concept I can construct. If it is as it states in the Bible that God is Light (taking this literally for the moment), then in the beginning, God said, let there be Me. Later we see that God refers to Himself as "I am". I certainly can't explain it. Who can?



Yes, one God, the Father, from whom all things came. And one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came.
Remember what God has done.

"That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places"
(Ephesians 1:17-20)

Here we see that our God is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. We see that our God is the Father of glory, and that God's glory is Jesus Christ. We see there is exceeding greatness in God's power, and that God wrought His might power in Christ. And we see that God raised Christ from the dead and set Jesus at His own right hand.

A cannot see how these two individuals can be considered the exact same entity.


Indeed, from verses 13-15, we see we are speaking of Jesus, not God the Father.
"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"
(Colossians 1:13-15)


Of course, Jesus is the Word of God, through which the universe was made.

The Bible says that the Word was with God in the beginning, as you acknowledge here many times, but what you are not acknowledging is that the WORD WAS GOD.

 

[Yes]

Exactly--Jesus was a mortal while on earth--they did not bow in worship--they bowed in obeisance to a king-- the teachers of darkness refuse truth to stick by dogmas.

Jesus was no mere man.
Jesus was worshiped on earth because he was God in the flesh.

I gave you scripture where Cornelius bowed to Peter, and that Peter told him not to do that. I gave you scripture where people tried to worship Paul and Barbabas and the people were told not to do that. Peter, Paul, and Barbabas said they were just men. Jesus did NOT tell anyone not to worship him. Why? Because Jesus was no mere man. JESUS SAYS to only worship God. Jesus allows being worshiped because he is God.

 

[Yes]

Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, not to the Son. If you want to say a few kind words to the Son, that's great, but worship the Father.

Jesus is worshiped

Matthew 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."

Matthew 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."

Matthew 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God’s Son!"

Matthew 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Hebrews 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

Luke 17:16 He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him--and he was a Samaritan.

Now read this:

Luke 4:8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."

No one in the Bible was ever commanded not to worship Jesus. We are told to worship God alone. Jesus is God made visible.

 

[moorea944]

The Bible says that the Word was with God in the beginning, as you acknowledge here many times, but what you are not acknowledging is that the WORD WAS GOD.

I think we know that the word (logos) was God. But what is the word? Should it be in a capital "W'? Is it Jesus? Or is it something else? Trinitarians say it is actually Jesus. Org. language tells us different. The word is God's plans, thoughts, reasons, His word. The first 5 verses are about Him. Jesus doesnt come around until verse 14.

In verse 6 we can even say that John was in heaven and then came to earth to be sent out by God. But we know that is not the case.
Yes, Jesus is the Word. He is also the bread of life and many other names. But in this case it is talking about something else. Then we have Jesus in verse 14.

[Because Jesus was no mere man. JESUS SAYS to only worship God. Jesus allows being worshiped because he is God.]
That is totally not the case. You make him God. Not the bible. Jesus never told anyone he was God. Jesus says only worship God so that makes him God? Come on.....

 

[moorea944]

Jesus is worshiped

Matthew 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."

Matthew 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."

Matthew 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God’s Son!"

Matthew 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Hebrews 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

Luke 17:16 He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him--and he was a Samaritan.

Now read this:

Luke 4:8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."

No one in the Bible was ever commanded not to worship Jesus. We are told to worship God alone. Jesus is God made visible.

They dont worship him as God. Your making Jesus God, not the bible. He is their King, their Messiah, their leader. Not their God!!!! They know who their God is. IT is not Jesus. Look at the verses your putting in. Read them!!!

 

[Yes]

I think we know that the word (logos) was God. But what is the word? Should it be in a capital "W'? Is it Jesus? Or is it something else? Trinitarians say it is actually Jesus. Org. language tells us different. The word is God's plans, thoughts, reasons, His word. The first 5 verses are about Him. Jesus doesnt come around until verse 14.

In verse 6 we can even say that John was in heaven and then came to earth to be sent out by God. But we know that is not the case.
Yes, Jesus is the Word. He is also the bread of life and many other names. But in this case it is talking about something else. Then we have Jesus in verse 14.

Jesus' NAME IS the Word of God.
That is what the Bible says.
Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

[Because Jesus was no mere man. JESUS SAYS to only worship God. Jesus allows being worshiped because he is God.]
That is totally not the case. You make him God. Not the bible. Jesus never told anyone he was God. Jesus says only worship God so that makes him God? Come on.....

Paul and Barnabas told the people not to worship them BECAUSE THEY WERE ONLY MEN.
Peter told Cornelius not to bow to him BECAUSE HE WAS ONLY A MAN.
Jesus says we are to worship God only...yet he does not tell anyone to stop worshiping him.

 

[Sonofason]

The Bible says that the Word was with God in the beginning, as you acknowledge here many times, but what you are not acknowledging is that the WORD WAS GOD.

Sorry, yes, the Word was God.

 

[Sonofason]

Jesus is worshiped

Matthew 2:2 - "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east, and have come to worship Him."

Matthew 2:11 - "And they came into the house and saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell down and worshiped Him; and opening their treasures they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."

Matthew 14:33 - "And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God’s Son!"

Matthew 28:9 - "And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him."

John 9:35-38 - "Jesus heard that they had put him out; and finding him, He said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?" 36 He answered and said, "And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him, and He is the one who is talking with you." 38 And he said, "Lord, I believe." And he worshiped Him."

Hebrews 1:6 - "And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says, 'And let all the angels of God worship Him.'"

Luke 17:16 He threw himself at Jesus' feet and thanked him--and he was a Samaritan.

Now read this:

Luke 4:8 Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'"

Revelation 19:10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."

No one in the Bible was ever commanded not to worship Jesus. We are told to worship God alone. Jesus is God made visible.

You've not fallen short in your evidence. You're right.

 

[moorea944]

Jesus is not worshipped as God. That's my point. He is not worshipped as the creator and Father. If someone worshipped him in the bible, which some did, it was more as a King or leader or Messiah, that type of thing. That's all.

And yes, Jesus is the word of God. But what is John 1 telling us. It is talking about God, not Jesus in the first few verses. It starts to talk about Jesus in verse 14! Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. He is the Word of God man flesh.

 

[allright]

Jesus is not worshipped as God. That's my point. He is not worshipped as the creator and Father. If someone worshipped him in the bible, which some did, it was more as a King or leader or Messiah, that type of thing. That's all.

And yes, Jesus is the word of God. But what is John 1 telling us. It is talking about God, not Jesus in the first few verses. It starts to talk about Jesus in verse 14! Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. He is the Word of God man flesh.

 

[cataway]

many don't understand that the act of worship found a Matthew 2:2 ,was , if you happens to see the act, is what we call obeisance

 

[Yes]

You've not fallen short in your evidence. You're right.

Amen, and thank you.

 

[Yes]

Jesus is not worshipped as God. That's my point. He is not worshipped as the creator and Father. If someone worshipped him in the bible, which some did, it was more as a King or leader or Messiah, that type of thing. That's all.

All the men that were worshiped by other people...they told the men to stop it.
Jesus does not tell anyone to stop worshiping him.

And yes, Jesus is the word of God. But what is John 1 telling us. It is talking about God, not Jesus in the first few verses. It starts to talk about Jesus in verse 14! Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. He is the Word of God man flesh.

Philippians 2:9-
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.