The Trinity

[JayJayDee]

I agree, except that I hope you consider that if the flesh body is not dead, the spirit can travel outside the body. Paul speaks of such a circumstance. If it were not possible for the spirit to travel outside the body, then I do not believe that Paul would cause us to believe that it were possible.

2 Corinthians 12:3 And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--

You are speaking about the "first resurrection" of spirit anointed Christians who are chosen to rule with Christ in his kingdom, not immortality of the spirit departing for destinations unknown. (Rev 20:6)

Paul wrote..."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (1 Thess 4:13-16)

All of the first Christians had "the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) and all knew that they would "sleep" in death until Christ returned to take them to their heavenly assignment. This is what Paul spoke about. They clearly did not know how long they were to sleep, but they knew it was not until the second coming that he would awaken them to life in the spirit, the same as he had experienced.

None of those men and women of faith in pre-Christan times had the "heavenly calling" because this was only possible through exercising faith as a disciple of Jesus Christ and being taken into the new covenant.

You need to take the whole of scripture into consideration because Paul said "all scripture" is "inspired of God". The NT was accepted as scripture...inspired of God also.

It is one story from Genesis to Revelation....one BIG picture.

 

[JayJayDee]

The NWT is what leads you down the wrong path. Retranslating the bible to match your doctrine is pure genius on the part of the governing body, especially when you were incorporated to worship Jehovah and Jesus.

LOL...show us where the NWT deviates from the original texts and I'll show you where the translators of the KJV and other "real" Bibles did not translate without bias towards the trinity. Care to compare?
Bring it on.....

 

[Wharton]

So your saying that, Jesus was God, then became man, then became God? Again?....

No.

 

[JayJayDee]

You have son talking to father. One person of the Trinity communicating with the other.
God does as he pleases. If Jesus decides to do the will of the father, no problem.

Well, there wouldn't be a problem if Jesus was fully human, as a created, mortal servant of his God and Father, but it gets sticky for those who claim that he was, at the same time, "fully God". That is where the whole thing falls apart. An immortal being cannot die. Immortality means an indestructible life. If Jesus was God, he couldn't die, so the ransom is a fraud. No one is saved.

In Christianity, there's no soul sleep. I'll let you ponder that.

Now read the scripture quoted in my last post and tell me that the dead even in Christ do not "sleep".

You ponder that.

There is no part of man that survives death. Show us the scripture that validates belief in a conscious part of man that lives on in spirit form when the body dies. No one needed to float off anywhere because no one was going to be resurrected until Christ returned. They were all to sleep until then. No one went to heaven...everyone went to hell...which is simply the grave. No torture, no suffering.

The living are judged when Christ comes on judgment day. There are only sheep and goats. Some who believe that they are sheep are in for a rude shock. (Matt 7:21-23)
The dead are not judged until after that time when Jesus calls all the dead from their graves here on earth. (John 5:28, 29) A judgment period will then begin for them under the rulership of God's kingdom.

Give me your definition of Almighty God. We'll go from there. Is Almighty God, the Father?

There is "one God, the Father" according to Paul. This is Jesus' God and Father...the one he himself calls "the only true God" (John 17:3) He identifies himself as "the one..sent forth" by his Father.

Jesus told the devil that Jehovah "alone" was to be worshipped and there is no command to worship the son or the holy spirit....only "Our Father who art in heaven".

 

[Wharton]

LOL...show us where the NWT deviates from the original texts and I'll show you where the translators of the KJV and other "real" Bibles did not translate without bias towards the trinity. Care to compare?
Bring it on.....

Yah, let's use the 1961 edition of the New World Translation where it render Hebrews 1:6 to say that we should worship Jesus. I like that one.

Seems your spiritual food givers (the Governing Body) overlooked that one. It took them 10 years to see the boo-boo and remove it in 1971 to conform to their doctrine.

Any upcoming changes in the spiritual food projected?

 

[Yes]

You are speaking about the "first resurrection" of spirit anointed Christians who are chosen to rule with Christ in his kingdom, not immortality of the spirit departing for destinations unknown. (Rev 20:6)

The first resurrection is of the saved; however, our spirits do not die.

Paul wrote..."But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (1 Thess 4:13-16)

All of the first Christians had "the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1) and all knew that they would "sleep" in death until Christ returned to take them to their heavenly assignment. This is what Paul spoke about. They clearly did not know how long they were to sleep, but they knew it was not until the second coming that he would awaken them to life in the spirit, the same as he had experienced.

When Jesus comes again, he will bring with him the spirits of those who died.


Jude 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

None of those men an women of faith in pre-Christan times had the "heavenly calling" because this was only possible through exercising faith as a disciple of Jesus Christ and being taken into the new covenant.

You are badly mistaken

The righteous who died before Jesus came to earth, they were the cloud of witnesses. They were made perfect with Paul and all the first Christians, when the gospel was being given for the first time.

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,


Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

You need to take the whole of scripture into consideration because Paul said "all scripture" is "inspired of God". The NT was accepted as scripture...inspired of God also.

It is one story from Genesis to Revelation....one BIG picture.

I want to help you to know God better.

 

[Kolibri]

Hebrews 1:6
“bow before” (The Bible—An American Translation; Young's Literal Translation) and “pay homage” (The New English Bible)

The Greek word pro-sky-ne'o used at Hebrews 1:6 has a broad meaning ranging from bowing down to actual worship. Context has to be taken into consideration as to which level of intensity is implied.

Mt 18:26 uses it in connection with a slave's doing obeisance to a king.

It was also used Mt 4:8,9 when the Devil was trying to get Jesus to bow down/submit/worship Satan. When Jesus replied in vs 10 a form of pro-sky-ne'o found in the quote of the Hebrew word hish-ta-chawah' as well as the Greek la-treu'o (sacred service) for the Hebrew 'a-vadh'. Hish-ta-chawah' primarily means 'bow down' and is demonstrated at times to simply be an act of respect or of courteous regard toward another person. (Ge 19:1,2; 33:1-6; 37:9,10) It could also be an expression of worship, indicating reverence and gratitude to God and submission to his will. When used with Jehovah or pagan deities it is sometimes associated with sacrifice and prayer - meaning that often people would bow down while doing either.

At Psalm 97:7 the Septuagint uses pro-sky-ne'o to replace the Hebrew sha-hahh', which basically means "prostrate oneself." The Aramaic equivalent is usually associated with worship and yet at Da 2:46 King Nebuchadnezzar prostrates himself, paying homage to Daniel.

Another example of where pro-sky-ne'o does not mean worship is at Re 3:9

"Look! I will make those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews yet are not, but are lying - look! I will make them come and bow (Gr. pro-sky-no'o) before your feet and make them know that I have loved you." - Re 3:9

So why the adjustment at Heb 1:6?
Because of what Jesus said at Matthew 4:10, worship, a form of pro-sky-ne'o, belongs only to Jehovah. (De 6:13; 10:20) and bow before, do obeisance, or pay homage are all valid meanings for the term.

*** it-2 p. 524 Obeisance ***
No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures. Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of pro·sky·ne′o], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Mt 4:8-10; Lu 4:7, 8) Similarly, the angel(s) told John to “worship God” (Re 19:10; 22:9), and this injunction came after Jesus’ resurrection and exaltation, showing that matters had not changed in this regard. True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3) Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to Jehovah God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.” (Re 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1Ch 29:20; Re 5:13, 14; 21:22.) On the other hand, the renderings “bow before” and ‘pay homage’ (instead of “worship”) are in no way out of harmony with the original language, either the Hebrew of Psalm 97:7 or the Greek of Hebrews 1:6, for such translations convey the basic sense of both hish·ta·chawah′ and pro·sky·ne′o.

 

[Kolibri]

The righteous who died before Jesus came to earth, they were the cloud of witnesses. They were made perfect with Paul and all the first Christians, when the gospel was being given for the first time.

If all the righteous men of old were resurrected in the first century, why do we not have stories about Abraham, Job, Joseph, Moses and Aaron, Joshua and Caleb, and David as zealous Christians? Why would God bring them back only to die again after they have been so totally displaced into a foreign yet still grossly imperfect world? No these faithful men and women were not physically present but their examples of faith live on in the Scriptures. They are still sleeping in their graves awaiting a resurrection in the earthly paradise to come.

And what about Abel or Enoch? When he died they probably had about 600 - 800 years of vitality to live out. Surely such a long lived individuals would gather some renown. There is no way Jehovah would have mercilessly resurrected them early only to be marooned into a world they were not familiar with - one that would only martyr them all over again.

 

[Yes]

If all the righteous men of old were resurrected in the first century, why do we not have stories about Abraham, Job, Joseph, Moses and Aaron, Joshua and Caleb, and David as zealous Christians? Why would God bring them back only to die again after they have been so totally displaced into a foreign yet still grossly imperfect world?

What do you mean bring them back? They are alive in the spirit living with Jesus in heaven.

No these faithful men and women were not physically present but their examples of faith live on in the Scriptures. They are still sleeping in their graves awaiting a resurrection in the earthly paradise to come.

That is not what the scriptures say. They are the cloud of witnesses. Witness are not dead people. How can they be witnesses if they are dead in the grave?

And what about Abel or Enoch? When he died they probably had about 600 - 800 years of vitality to live out. Surely such a long lived individuals would gather some renown. There is no way Jehovah would have mercilessly resurrected them early only to be marooned into a world they were not familiar with - one that would only martyr them all over again.

Why do you keep saying resurrected them? They are alive in the spirit.

However, the Bible does tell us that there was a time when many holy people were raised to life.

Matthew 27:52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

 

[Wharton]

Hebrews 1:6
“bow before” (The Bible—An American Translation; Young's Literal Translation) and “pay homage” (The New English Bible)

The Greek word pro-sky-ne'o used at Hebrews 1:6 has a broad meaning ranging from bowing down to actual worship. Context has to be taken into consideration as to which level of intensity is implied.

Mt 18:26 uses it in connection with a slave's doing obeisance to a king.

It was also used Mt 4:8,9 when the Devil was trying to get Jesus to bow down/submit/worship Satan. When Jesus replied in vs 10 a form of pro-sky-ne'o found in the quote of the Hebrew word hish-ta-chawah' as well as the Greek la-treu'o (sacred service) for the Hebrew 'a-vadh'. Hish-ta-chawah' primarily means 'bow down' and is demonstrated at times to simply be an act of respect or of courteous regard toward another person. (Ge 19:1,2; 33:1-6; 37:9,10) It could also be an expression of worship, indicating reverence and gratitude to God and submission to his will. When used with Jehovah or pagan deities it is sometimes associated with sacrifice and prayer - meaning that often people would bow down while doing either.

At Psalm 97:7 the Septuagint uses pro-sky-ne'o to replace the Hebrew sha-hahh', which basically means "prostrate oneself." The Aramaic equivalent is usually associated with worship and yet at Da 2:46 King Nebuchadnezzar prostrates himself, paying homage to Daniel.

Another example of where pro-sky-ne'o does not mean worship is Re 3:9

"Look! I will make those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews yet are not, but are lying - look! I will make them come and bow (Gr. pro-sky-no'o) before your feet and make them know that I have loved you." - Re 3:9

So why the adjustment at Heb 1:6?
Because of what Jesus said at Matthew 4:10, worship, a form of pro-sky-ne'o, belongs only to Jehovah. (De 6:13; 10:20) and bow before, do obeisance, or pay homage are all valid meanings for the term.

*** it-2 p. 524 Obeisance ***
No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures. Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that “it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of pro·sky·ne′o], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.” (Mt 4:8-10; Lu 4:7, 8) Similarly, the angel(s) told John to “worship God” (Re 19:10; 22:9), and this injunction came after Jesus’ resurrection and exaltation, showing that matters had not changed in this regard. True, Psalm 97, which the apostle evidently quotes at Hebrews 1:6, refers to Jehovah God as the object of the ‘bowing down,’ and still this text was applied to Christ Jesus. (Ps 97:1, 7) However, the apostle previously had shown that the resurrected Christ is “the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Heb 1:1-3) Hence, if what we understand as “worship” is apparently directed to the Son by angels, it is in reality being directed through him to Jehovah God, the Sovereign Ruler, “the One who made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.” (Re 14:7; 4:10, 11; 7:11, 12; 11:16, 17; compare 1Ch 29:20; Re 5:13, 14; 21:22.) On the other hand, the renderings “bow before” and ‘pay homage’ (instead of “worship”) are in no way out of harmony with the original language, either the Hebrew of Psalm 97:7 or the Greek of Hebrews 1:6, for such translations convey the basic sense of both hish·ta·chawah′ and pro·sky·ne′o.

So what you're implying is that your guys didn't have a clue when translating the first addition of the NWT and fed those JW's spiritual junk food in 1961. And prior to that you used the KJV which states Jesus is God. Where are those JW's?

Oh boy. They placed their salvation on guys issuing error. Where are those JW's that committed idolatry and worshipped Jesus? How about the one's that wrote your incorporation charter that stated to worship Jesus. Where are they?

 

[Kolibri]

So what you're implying is that your guys didn't have a clue when translating the first addition of the NWT and fed those JW's spiritual junk food in 1961. And prior to that you used the KJV which states Jesus is God. Where are those JW's?

Oh boy. They placed their salvation on guys issuing error. Where are those JW's that committed idolatry and worshipped Jesus? How about the one's that wrote your incorporation charter that stated to worship Jesus. Where are they?

Have you ever moved out of your culture into another? How long did it take you to be seen as if a native of the new culture and/or language group? How long do you think it took the repatriated Jews to separate themselves from the influence of being trapped in Babylon for 70 years? I am sure major refinements came quickly and minor ones would come progressively. No?

Same true to the reestablishing "a form of worship that is clean and undefiled by the standpoint of our God" in modern times. Basic Bible truths came first, even before the beginning of the last days, and other refinements build on the first as Jehovah progressively refines his people, and their "pure language" of truth. (James 1:27; Zephaniah 3:9)

But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light
That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight.
- Proverbs 4:18

There was nothing inherently wrong with those Jehovah's Witnesses of those days. They were still on the same path. It is the light shining on the path that has gotten brighter.

 

[JayJayDee]

The first resurrection is of the saved; however, our spirits do not die.

I know that you want to believe this, but where does it say that in the Bible? Where do you get the idea that we have a separate part of us that cannot die? It isn't from scripture. It is an implanted belief that originated outside of Bible teaching a very long time ago. In Eden the devil told the woman "you surely will not die"....yet God told Adam that he would...who lied? This lie is ancient.

When Jesus comes again, he will bring with him the spirits of those who died.

Jude 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones

If you just read the next verse, you will see that these "holy ones" are angels that come with Jesus to execute judgment on sinners.

Jude 1:14-15 "And Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied about them: Look! The Lord comes with thousands of His holy ones to execute judgment on all and to convict them of all their ungodly acts that they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things ungodly sinners have said against Him." (Holman)

This is confirmed by Paul...

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 "It is a clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to reward with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. This will take place at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don’t know God and on those who don’t obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the Lord’s presence and from His glorious strength in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed."

Will his anointed ones be with him on that day...yes they will, because he resurrects them when he returns and they share in his victory. But you will notice that the "saints" are mentioned along with "all those who have believed" because they listened to the preaching of these saints.

Not all are "saints" or "holy ones". Can you understand that it would be pointless to take all Christians to heaven when it was never in God's purpose to take any humans to heaven in the first place?

You are badly mistaken

Can you even entertain the possibility that it is you who might be mistaken?

The righteous who died before Jesus came to earth, they were the cloud of witnesses. They were made perfect with Paul and all the first Christians, when the gospel was being given for the first time.

Yes, "a cloud of witnesses" who did what witnesses do....they testify to the truth of a matter. These pre-Christian servants of God entertained a hope that will not be disappointed. They had no notion of going to heaven. They believed that God's kingdom would be established on earth and that the conditions Adam lost in Eden would be restored. This is indeed what God's kingdom will do....but none of those who died before Christ have a "heavenly calling". Their destiny is what God had always held out to them.

Many Christian who are alive today will not go to heaven....it is only for "the elect" or "the chosen ones".....do you understand this? You can't have all chiefs and no Indians.

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,


Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Yes exactly. "To the church of the firstborn whose names are written in heaven". Only those with the "heavenly calling" have their names written there. These alone will be taken to heaven to rule with Christ. They "will be kings and priests"....future tense. (Rev 20:6)
So can you tell me who it is that these will rule and for whom they will act as priests?

I want to help you to know God better.

What makes you think you know God better than anyone else?

You have your beliefs formulated according to what you want to believe, but we have shown you many times that you take scripture out of context and build your doctrine on a false premise. If your building lacks a solid foundation, it will fall down when the storm comes....and I believe it is coming soon!

We are trying to help YOU know God better, but it is difficult when someone has their fingers in their ears humming and saying "I can't possibly be wrong".

 

[JayJayDee]

So what you're implying is that your guys didn't have a clue when translating the first addition of the NWT and fed those JW's spiritual junk food in 1961. And prior to that you used the KJV which states Jesus is God. Where are those JW's?

Oh boy. They placed their salvation on guys issuing error. Where are those JW's that committed idolatry and worshipped Jesus? How about the one's that wrote your incorporation charter that stated to worship Jesus. Where are they?

Boy! If there was an Olympic medal for jumping to conclusions, I'm sure you would be a contender!

Kolibri has answered you succinctly and I am sure that many appreciated his well reasoned response.

We never "worshipped" Jesus as a matter of fact. We well understood that the "son of God" is in fact what he said he was. He never claimed to be God and the blasphemous trinity was one of the first doctrines we shot down.

Clarification of the word "proskyneo" (also provided by Kolibri) simply confirmed what we already knew.

 

[kjv4me2you]

Interestingly, as one reads through the comments and questions concerning the formulation of the Trinity, it becomes apparent
that these are much the same questions the early Christians asked and which ultimately prompted the development of the Trinity. There was no consensus about who Jesus was during his human lifetime, even among those who knew him.
They drew on ideas from both the Jewish religious tradition and the surrounding Hellenistic cultures for the elements to interpret the meaning of Christ in a way that made sense with its religious experience. Words about God are cultural and time conditioned, and are woven in with the lived experiences of the faith community. The early Christians who maintained their Jewish monotheistic roots came to believe that the Trinitarian nature of God was compatible with monotheism. From Christian scripture they remembered that Jesus had a unique relationship with God, whom he called father, that Jesus had promised to be with them even after he was no longer visible to them; and that Jesus had said he would also send his spirit to them and they believed the Spirit did come to them at Pentecost. They were instructed to be baptized in the name of 'the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. From this, over centuries the doctrine of the Trinity, a construct to understand something which resists understanding, slowly came about, first formulated at Nicaea 325 and Developed Constantinople 381.


"For God is thought more truly than can be uttered, and exists more truly than can be thought." Augustine

One could just as easily refer to the Trinity as, Mother, Daughter and Wisdom.

 

[Wharton]

Have you ever moved out of your culture into another? How long did it take you to be seen as if a native of the new culture and/or language group? How long do you think it took the repatriated Jews to separate themselves from the influence of being trapped in Babylon for 70 years? I am sure major refinements came quickly and minor ones would come progressively. No?

Same true to the reestablishing "a form of worship that is clean and undefiled by the standpoint of our God" in modern times. Basic Bible truths came first, even before the beginning of the last days, and other refinements build on the first as Jehovah progressively refines his people, and their "pure language" of truth. (James 1:27; Zephaniah 3:9)

But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light
That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight.
- Proverbs 4:18

There was nothing inherently wrong with those Jehovah's Witnesses of those days. They were still on the same path. It is the light shining on the path that has gotten brighter.

Yep. The light shining brighter is a good excuse for covering errors. It's a good excuse for being fed spiritual junk food for so long. How do you know that you are not being fed spiritual junk food now? It shows that you have a God of confusion. Well, I shouldn't say that. It simply shows that your governing body is confused and has no clue as to the truth. Eg: If you didn't worship Jesus, why was the word left in the 1961 NWT? Surely, the translators were smart enough to see that the word worship did not conform to JW doctrine, no? You didn't need to understand Greek to figure that one out.

Btw, the form of worship that is clean and undefiled is the Last Supper todah established by Jesus. You might know that as the Orthodox Divine Liturgy or the Catholic Mass. You do nothing more than what men have been doing since the Garden of Eden making the death of Jesus unnecessary.

 

[Wharton]

We never "worshipped" Jesus as a matter of fact. We well understood that the "son of God" is in fact what he said he was. He never claimed to be God and the blasphemous trinity was one of the first doctrines we shot down.

So the word worship regarding Jesus that is found in your 1961 NWT and your articles of incorporation are just there for fun?

You need to seriously examine your roots before making statements like that.

 

[Yes]

I know that you want to believe this, but where does it say that in the Bible?

Scriptures that support the first resurrection, that of our spirits going to heaven with Jesus, before we die a physical death...


John 6:56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.


Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,


Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.


Colossians 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

Where do you get the idea that we have a separate part of us that cannot die?

There are many scriptures that tell us that.

Here is one:

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

It isn't from scripture. It is an implanted belief that originated outside of Bible teaching a very long time ago. In Eden the devil told the woman "you surely will not die"....yet God told Adam that he would...who lied? This lie is ancient.

We die physically, but not spiritually.

If you just read the next verse, you will see that these "holy ones" are angels that come with Jesus to execute judgment on sinners.

Those saved will be judges too.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!

Will his anointed ones be with him on that day...yes they will, because he resurrects them when he returns and they share in his victory. But you will notice that the "saints" are mentioned along with "all those who have believed" because they listened to the preaching of these saints.

Not all are "saints" or "holy ones". Can you understand that it would be pointless to take all Christians to heaven when it was never in God's purpose to take any humans to heaven in the first place?

All those Jesus save are the HOLY ones:


Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters. John 17:19 John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

Can you even entertain the possibility that it is you who might be mistaken?

I am no baby Christian.

Yes, "a cloud of witnesses" who did what witnesses do....they testify to the truth of a matter. These pre-Christian servants of God entertained a hope that will not be disappointed. They had no notion of going to heaven.

Of course, they did, and they were the spirits in heaven made perfect though Jesus. They were those in heaven watching.

They believed that God's kingdom would be established on earth and that the conditions Adam lost in Eden would be restored. This is indeed what God's kingdom will do....but none of those who died before Christ have a "heavenly calling". Their destiny is what God had always held out to them.

Many Christian who are alive today will not go to heaven....it is only for "the elect" or "the chosen ones".....do you understand this? You can't have all chiefs and no Indians.

All the saved are elected/chosen.

Yes exactly. "To the church of the firstborn whose names are written in heaven". Only those with the "heavenly calling" have their names written there. These alone will be taken to heaven to rule with Christ. They "will be kings and priests"....future tense. (Rev 20:6)
So can you tell me who it is that these will rule and for whom they will act as priests?

What makes you think you know God better than anyone else?

You have your beliefs formulated according to what you want to believe, but we have shown you many times that you take scripture out of context and build your doctrine on a false premise. If your building lacks a solid foundation, it will fall down when the storm comes....and I believe it is coming soon!

We are trying to help YOU know God better, but it is difficult when someone has their fingers in their ears humming and saying "I can't possibly be wrong".

I prove all my beliefs with scripture.

 

[kjv4me2you]

Interestingly, as one reads through the comments and questions concerning the formulation of the Trinity, it becomes apparent
that these are much the same questions the early Christians asked and which ultimately prompted the development of the Trinity. There was no consensus about who Jesus was during his human lifetime, even among those who knew him.
They drew on ideas from both the Jewish religious tradition and the surrounding Hellenistic cultures for the elements to interpret the meaning of Christ in a way that made sense with its religious experience. Words about God are cultural and time conditioned, and are woven in with the lived experiences of the faith community. The early Christians who maintained their Jewish monotheistic roots came to believe that the Trinitarian nature of God was compatible with monotheism. From Christian scripture they remembered that Jesus had a unique relationship with God, whom he called father, that Jesus had promised to be with them even after he was no longer visible to them; and that Jesus had said he would also send his spirit to them and they believed the Spirit did come to them at Pentecost. They were instructed to be baptized in the name of 'the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. From this, over centuries the doctrine of the Trinity, a construct to understand something which resists understanding, slowly came about, first formulated at Nicaea 325 and Developed Constantinople 381.

"For God is thought more truly than can be uttered, and exists more truly than can be thought." Augustine

God=Elohim= is a title whereas the name of the ONE titled Elohim is YHWH-YaH .

(Exo 3:18 KJV) And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, YHWH-YaH Elohim-God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to YHWH-YaH our Elohiim-God.

(Psa 68:4 KJV) Sing unto God-Elohim, sing praises to his name- YaH: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name YAH, and rejoice before him.

If God is thought more truly than can be uttered, why then do men utter words regarding God such as trinity that God did not even utter regarding Himself in the Book He wrote?

(Exo 32:32 KJV) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou (YHWH-YaH) hast written.
(Exo 32:33 KJV) And YHWH-YaH said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my YHWH-YaH's book.

God is independent of any thoughts or words of men in order for His eternalness to continue, but realize O man it is our continued trusting upon the pure word of God that our eternal life is dependent.

willyah

 

[kjv4me2you]

You have son talking to father. One person of the Trinity communicating with the other.

God does as he pleases. If Jesus decides to do the will of the father, no problem.

In Christianity, there's no soul sleep. I'll let you ponder that.

Give me your definition of Almighty God. We'll go from there. Is Almighty God, the Father?

The words of the song of Moses the prophet and the song of the Lamb ( Jesus ) a prophet like Moses Deut 18:18. are identical. Moses and the Lamb song declares , YHWH-YaH Elohim Shaddai; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

(Rev 15:3 KJV) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, YHWH-YaH Elohim Shaddai; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

(Rev 5:5 KJV) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

(Rev 5:6 KJV) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

The Lamb slain is of the root of David and YHWH-YaH Elohim Shaddai is not the root of David.

(Luke 1:32 KJV) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and YHWH-YaH Elohim shall give unto him=Jesus=the Lamb the throne of his father David:

(Luke 6:35 KJV) But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for He (the Highest) is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
(Luke 6:36 KJV) Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father ( the Highest) also is merciful.

willyah

 

[JayJayDee]

So the word worship regarding Jesus that is found in your 1961 NWT and your articles of incorporation are just there for fun?

You need to seriously examine your roots before making statements like that.

Very clear statement have been made to you regarding our beliefs and the scriptural backing for them. You are free to believe whatever you wish. We are not stuck in the past with beliefs that originated from outside the Bible. We made a very concerted effort to go back to the original Christianity taught by the son of God....not by an apostate religious system that is the most reprehensible part of "Babylon the great." (Rev 18: 4, 5) All of Christendom's core beliefs can be traced back to ancient Babylon....the place where the devil gave birth to all false worship.

Gradually over time, and after careful study, we have weeded out what does not belong. This 'cleansing, whitening and refining' were foretold by Daniel to take place in "the time of the end". (Dan 12:4, 9, 10)

Unlike Christendom, we accepted the cleansing and we adjusted our thinking when a refinement was needed.