The truth can set you free...

[XAAX]

There's no herd here.

I can see that Halcyon. I do agree with a number of your points in your respose to my earlier post. You are right on one thing, i am bit jaded. Let me explain why i am angry. I would have no problem with religions existing and doing their own thing. I would still pitty the followers and try to do all i could to help them. The problem is that these organizations have the worlds govrnments under their control. That is the root of all our problems.
There needs to be a complete seperation of church and state! Then and only then could people start to realize the difference between universal laws and relious laws.

Example:
Universal laws: Do not kill, do not lie, do not hurt others, do not take what is not yours, etc...
Religious laws: Women have to be covered from head to toe until the reach menopause, no sex before marriage, thou shall not be gay, No research can be done to benefit all mankind if it uses stem cells, etc...

The first list are things that are karmically universal. The second list are opinions from idiologies that are trying to be imposed on societies by religions and the government. This was a short list... there is alot more to add.

This government is so stupid. It would go to great lengths to take up alot of useful time and money to argue that men and women can't love and marry one another. Who the hell cares. I think that there are serious problems that our race is headed towards and it doesn't have a damn thing to do with gays. Answer: Christianity running rampant in the US Governemnt. With bush's backwood redneck self leading the crusade. What ****** me off most is that now most of the world groups all texans in with this idiot.

 

[XAAX]

Yeah, right. I love how people think they can start their offensive post by saying "no offense, but..." - and that makes it all right. At the very least, be honest. If you intend to offend, which you obviously do, don't say that you don't.
[/font]
Actually, 11 people saw the plates, and many more saw the stones

Since he has "conned" millions of people for the last 150 years, I'd say that he at least deserves a first rate status

Ok, your right...i agree. With that many people conned, he does deserve the term first rate con. Just a terrible story teller. If I was going to be visited by angels and translate this wonderful new scripture. I could have came up with a lot better material. :angel2:

Most religions do have fundamenal goodness to them. That is what makes them enticing to individuals that are searching for answers. But like I said earlier. Come on…you are telling me that you read the bible and the book of mormon and thought, wow, this is the answer?

 

[SoyLeche]

Come on…you are telling me that you read the bible and the book of mormon and thought, wow, this is the answer?

Yup - I did, and I still do.

Go ahead and come up with your own material. Let's see how well you can do.

 

[SoyLeche]

Ok, your right...i agree. With that many people conned, he does deserve the term first rate con. Just a terrible story teller. If I was going to be visited by angels and translate this wonderful new scripture. I could have came up with a lot better material. :angel2:

Most religions do have fundamenal goodness to them. That is what makes them enticing to individuals that are searching for answers. But like I said earlier. Come on…you are telling me that you read the bible and the book of mormon and thought, wow, this is the answer?

BTW - what is up with your fonts?

 

[Sunstone]

Universal laws: Do not kill, do not lie, do not hurt others, do not take what is not yours, etc...
Religious laws: Women have to be covered from head to toe until the reach menopause, no sex before marriage, thou shall not be gay, No research can be done to benefit all mankind if it uses stem cells, etc...

The first list are things that are karmically universal. The second list are opinions from idiologies that are trying to be imposed on societies by religions and the government.

Methinks that's a good distinction to make.

Have you ever read Sam Harris's book, The End of Faith?

 

[XAAX]

I have not read it but I did look up some reviews on it now. It does sound very interesting and exactly the point I was making. Forgive me if I tend to be blunt at times regarding religions. I have beat my head against that wall with people so many times I've lost count. I quit trying to help the determined blind. Comprehend posted that he thought what I was talking about in some way reflected a Freudian point of veiw. Just to set the record strait. I am not a fan of Freud. I much prefer Socrates and Nietzsche if you were interested.

 

[Booko]

Universal laws: Do not kill, do not lie, do not hurt others, do not take what is not yours, etc...
Religious laws: Women have to be covered from head to toe until the reach menopause, no sex before marriage, thou shall not be gay, No research can be done to benefit all mankind if it uses stem cells, etc...

Oh, I don't think separation of church and state is necessary for this realization, Preach. Within my religion (Baha'i) we make distinction between what we call "unversal laws" and "social laws" and the distinction has been there for at least 150 years.

The "social laws" change from one religion to the next, because the needs of the time change as humanity matures. (Unfortunately, they also get added to by fallible humans, but that's another thread.)

As for the necessity of separation of church and state, I agree the Founding Dads were rather smart about that, and I do not like to see the idea tossed away so easily either.

 

[painted wolf]

some points on the OP.

1) "religion" predates humanity. H.neandertalis, possibly H.erectus
2) your view on "primitive" religion is over simplified and erronious. In many cases Night and the Moon do not = evil. In many indiginous faiths "evil" is the result of breaking taboo's or dissatified ancestor spirits.

as for blind faith, blind belief in anything is dangerous, not just religion.

wa:do

 

[Katzpur]

Lets try and wake the world up to reality. Hmmm…lets see. I guess we should start from the beginning. That’s really the only way to get the big picture. The creation of religion first started when early humans were unable to understand their suroundings. Can’t explain it, must be god. The sun makes things grow and gives us warmth, must be good. When the sun goes away the moon comes out and things are dark and scary, must be evil. Basic as it sounds, this is what is wrong with the world today. You can trace almost all religions of today back to that basic premise. We have evolved so much in the ways of technology and science yet we still hold on to ancient ideologies.

And yet our new technology and science are really just in their infancy. Why should be trust them when what is proven today may be disproven tomorrow?

The old ways of just preventing people from thinking for themselves is slowly slipping through the grasp of religions. I would say that this is a good thing. The main problem with this is that most people are still simple in the fact that they need something to tell them what they can and cannot do. I am speaking spiritually as well ethically. We need to come together to let others know that there isn’t this black/white view of the universe.

It sounds to me as if your view of the universe is entirely black and white, i.e. "I'm right; you're wrong."

It baffles my mind when I talk to christians on the internet (for example). I have asked numerous “hard core chrisians” if they follow their religion blindly. The typical response is that they do not and that they are very educated about their religion. Then listen to them tell you that you are a liar and deceiving them when you tell them the bible they are following was created by a pagan. It is really very sad to me. I understand that people generally believe what they have been born into. This is a strong environmental factor in any culture. That being the case, I feel that at a point, everyone reaches a place in their life where they have to evaluate was is truth and what is not. There is no excuse not to other than the choice of remaining blind and ignorant to universal truths. People tell me that it is difficult for others to break away after a lifetime of following a religious faith. I do not believe that to be true.

I'm not sure what makes you an expert about the education and/or intelligence of "most Christians." If you stick around RF awhile, you may very well discover that a great many of us have a very good grasp of their chosen faith. What, by the way, are some of the "universal truths" you assume that I, as a Christian, am ignorant of?

The fact that I am an ex-baptist preacher and youth leader should speak volumes.

That's an understatement if there ever was one!

You want to tell me about making the difficult decisions. Been there, done that. The thing that shocks others when I tell them that is when I say that I thank God everyday for the strength to think for myself and follow the road less traveled. They are trapped in their little box confused as the fact that I am referring to something alien to them. If you’re not a Christian now then you must follow the only other God, Satan. It is so hard to reach someone who is trapped in that mind frame. Believe it or not for those of you who are in the dark and afraid of what religions try to force you to believe through threats of fire and damnation, there is hope. Once you have broken free and truly open your heart and mind. You will know a God that is the true God. The God I am referring to is the energy that binds all living things in the universe, including you. You can feel a peace of heart and connection to God that no church, mosque, temple, etc could ever give you. Think of God as a wheel. With all the religions, that man has created for whatever reason(and there are many: Greed, Control, Unification, Etc), being spokes in that wheel. All leading from the same beginning to the same end. All limited to their “spokes” view of the wheel. How much of God do they really know? Not much unfortunately. Maybe one day there will be some kind of anti-religious movement that teaches people how to be one with God and all living things. Then we might truly unite and be one with God.

So we're all supposed to break free and open our hearts and minds. And if we come to a different conclusion than you have, we've got it all wrong. Jeesh!

 

[XAAX]

some points on the OP.

1) "religion" predates humanity. H.neandertalis, possibly H.erectus
2) your view on "primitive" religion is over simplified and erronious. In many cases Night and the Moon do not = evil. In many indiginous faiths "evil" is the result of breaking taboo's or dissatified ancestor spirits.

as for blind faith, blind belief in anything is dangerous, not just religion.

wa:do

I am native american by blood as well Wolf... And yes it was a primitive example. I was just trying to simplify it to others who only think religion came about in say the last couple of thousand years. I didn’t want to over complicate my description to loose the point of the statement. In truth I believe that spirituality and ones being(soul, essence, spirit, etc..) are connected completely. If you consider yourself a spiritual person or not, the choices you choose in your life determines the destination of self. For the record I see nothing as good and evil. Just words that poorly define the truth.

 

[Sunstone]

Preach,

I thought the thing you might find interesting about Harris is that, while he is opposed to faith on the grounds that it is irrational and unreasonable, he is not opposed to spirituality. It seems that's in line with what you yourself are saying. You might find The End of Faith are rather exciting book.

Also, the folks here on RF are a pretty open minded group provided you don't provoke them by assuming they're closed minded and rather dull. We don't have that many people here who are absolutely unwilling to listen, and the few that are tend to be transient because the don't find the open mindedness that is the norm here comfortable. But most of the members: if you listen to them, they'll listen to you. Respect is a two way street.

 

[XAAX]

It sounds to me as if your view of the universe is entirely black and white, i.e. "I'm right; you're wrong."

Actually my view is now and will always be open to debate, change, growth, and re-assessment. I am not saying that anyone who searches for answers is wrong. It is the first steps to the right path. What I am saying is if you choose to follow a religion because of a book or a human tells you so, you are wrong. Sorry, don’t mean to bust the bubble for you. Takes a lot more than that to truly achieve oneness with God(Heaven for you).

What, by the way, are some of the "universal truths" you assume that I, as a Christian, am ignorant of?

Thats an easy one. A clue for starters. The fact that I was a hard core christian myself is not what I base any of my understanding of religions on what so ever. That was what I look back on as the brainwashed days. What I mean by that was any time I came across inconsistencies in the bible I would bring them to the attention of my peers to find where I was misunderstanding the “Word of God”. Only to find the typical sheep like answer to be any of the following:

-God works in mysterious ways
-We aren’t not meant to understand God
-Or just flat out..Don’t ask such questions

It is sad really. I was so hardcore that I tried with all my being to learn more so that I could understand what I was missing. The only problem with doing that from a Christian point of view, its like trying to sail in a sieve. The more you look, the more holes you find.

In all reality I do believe, and think very highly of Jesus. Once I had studied all of the information out there about Jesus, who and what he truly was became a lot more real. This is my opinion from what I have studied of Jesus. He was a very enlightened human being who tried to help free the minds of the controlled populous of his time. The religious leaders found him a threat, like many other figures(Socrates for example)in the past, so they killed him. The message he tried to convey was simply the only true path to God is within. In my opinion that was misinterpreted as the only path to God is through him. I believe Jesus would frown upon the christians of today.

 

[des]

I read End of Faith and did find it very interesting. I think you could even say his beliefs border on Buddhism, without some of the esoteria. I'm sure he wouldn't say he is a Buddhist!!

I am reading Letter to a Christian Nation- its actually more of a letter, and I read it in one sitting. Going back over it. Harris is supposedly writing to a hypothetical conservative Christian. I didn't, of course, see any of myself in it, as I am very left wing if hardly recognizably Christian (in fact, flit around at times to edges of agnosticism). He is, if anything, a better speaker than writer. I have heard him a couple times on CSpan2 (book tv), yes I admit to being a geek, and am powerless over it. He even has an interesting speaking style. I love when he talks about "believing that the Creator of the Universe" says this or that.

BTW, I have also heard the guy that wrote the God Delusion. He's very funny, even if you don't agree with him. NOt sure.

--des

Preach,
I thought the thing you might find interesting about Harris is that, while he is opposed to faith on the grounds that it is irrational and unreasonable, he is not opposed to spirituality. It seems that's in line with what you yourself are saying. You might find The End of Faith are rather exciting book.
.

 

[Sunstone]

Des, I have the same impression that Harris has been influenced by Buddhism, but would by no means call himself a Buddhist.

 

[des]

I didn't read The God Delusion, but from listening to Davis, I gathered he was a little more up on his theology. However, the idea that there is some other kind of reality is somethign that Harris does take seriously-- that there is something to the idea of "religious experience", though he feels religious people don't understand what it really happening to them and attribute it to God, instead of consciousness. Anyway, I appreciated that he dealt with the area of transformative experience.

BTW, do you remember reading that he believes in reincarnation? I read that some people apparently thought they read that. I did not see that anywhere. That would be really surprising.

--des

Des, I have the same impression that Harris has been influenced by Buddhism, but would by no means call himself a Buddhist.

 

[Sunstone]

BTW, do you remember reading that he believes in reincarnation? I read that some people apparently thought they read that. I did not see that anywhere. That would be really surprising.

No, I don't recall reading anywhere that he believes in reincarnation. I think it's possible he might be some form of "agnostic" on that issue though.

One of his more interesting criticisms of religion, I think, is that religion has made no progress in hundreds, even thousands of years. It seems to me there's some truth to that. At the very least, I would agree with him that a "science of consciousness" or a "science of spirituality" is much needed.

 

[Mister Emu]

The old ways of just preventing people from thinking for themselves is slowly slipping through the grasp of religions.

Thankfully, the Bible supports inquiry, and thought.

Then listen to them tell you that you are a liar and deceiving them when you tell them the bible they are following was created by a pagan

Maybe not a liar, misinformed, or ignorant would be more apporpriate.

People tell me that it is difficult for others to break away after a lifetime of following a religious faith.

Others have inquired and found Truth within their religion. I know I have...

Maybe one day there will be some kind of anti-religious movement that teaches people how to be one with God and all living things.

As a matter of fact... nm...

watch out though, people don't take to kindly to free thinkers...Scares the herd.. lol

Mooo!!... mooo!!...(frightened mooing, the herd is scared )
Edit: I will personally blame you if milk production is down!

 

[painted wolf]

so basically you have a thing against organized Christianity.

wa:do

 

[XAAX]

Others have inquired and found Truth within their religion. I know I have...

I am by no means telling anyone that if a particular belief system makes you fulfilled, and hurts no one but yourself, that it is wrong. My problem is when that belief system is forcefully imposed on others. Example: Bush outlawed internet gambling a few months ago because he found it to be immoral from his Christian point of view. I could tell bush the true definition of immoral. Its call his image in the mirror. If ever there was a poster child for abortion, he is it.

This is a question for all. Who here believes that the main religions we are discussing(Christianity, Muslims, Catholics, Jews) are balanced in the sense of Male and Female? What I mean by this is women being equal to men in all aspects.

 

[Katzpur]

...any time I came across inconsistencies in the bible I would bring them to the attention of my peers to find where I was misunderstanding the “Word of God”. Only to find the typical sheep like answer to be any of the following:

-God works in mysterious ways
-We aren’t not meant to understand God
-Or just flat out..Don’t ask such questions

Interesting. Very unlike my own experience, however. People make God a lot more mysterious and unknowable than He really is.