The two or three witness rule of Jehovah's Witnesses

[savagewind]

Jw leaders do not abuse their positions by making demands on anyone--they are humble teachers--they might request one go out with them---but NEVER is it a demand. And if a demand like that was made--the other elders would stop it because it is never done like that. And every JW knows it.

I agree! LOL But I wasn't saying it would be given as a command. The brother who makes up the groups assigns the people present for each group. It would be awkward for a parent to say "I really don't want my child going with THAT brother". Don't you think?

 

[kjw47]

I agree! LOL But I wasn't saying it would be given as a command. The brother who makes up the groups assigns the people present for each group. It would be awkward for a parent to say "I really don't want my child going with THAT brother". Don't you think?

The teachers aren't stupid--they realize that as well. And nothing could possibly occur in a group of 4-- The Paedophile is told as well, believe me-- It is important for all to try and repent of their brand of sin. There is no other way than trying to live to do Gods will. Every individual has to battle daily--even teachers.
It would be years before they were allowed near a child. But not alone.

 

[savagewind]

The teachers aren't stupid--they realize that as well. And nothing could possibly occur in a group of 4-- The Paedophile is told as well, believe me-- It is important for all to try and repent of their brand of sin. There is no other way than trying to live to do Gods will. Every individual has to battle daily--even teachers.
It would be years before they were allowed near a child. But not alone.

The thread is about an uncondemned pediophile. By your post it seems that an unconvicted pediophile is allowed in the field service but not with children. Is this so?

 

[kjw47]

The thread is about an uncondemned pediophile. By your post it seems that an unconvicted pediophile is allowed in the field service but not with children. Is this so?

I am not sure on the field service one--it was years ago( 30) I encountered a situation like that.

 

[Norman]

The JWs are taught that how they treat the faithful and discreet slave will determine their blessings from God. To be disagreeing with the governing body who, are they that say they, are the faithful and discreet slave (as I suppose they do not know what discreet means) is considered by most JWs as treating them badly. Also I think most JWs do not know the two witness rule applies to innocent children. When I was a JW I did not know that.

Norman: Hi savagewind, Ok, I understand now, I have been following your post's on the Jehovah Witnesses and could not understand why you seemed so interested in what they believed and seem to be beating them into the ground. You are a former Jehovah Witness but I see you left that religion but can't seem now to leave it alone, why is that?

 

[Norman]

It's a little upsetting that you say the congregation will know to keep the children away from certain people. According to the regular precedure they WON'T know. Have things changed so quickly? It was only three years ago for me. I knew NOTHING about what others were doing. Is there a way to keep an offending brother in good standing and at the same time warn the others about him?

Norman: Hi savagewind, In all 50 states clergy has to report sexual abuse to the authorities. My church has an automatic hot line to report any sexual abuse or any possible sexual abuse to the authorities. Why would the Jehovah Witness's try to keep a member in good standing if they molested a child? That member should be removed from the congregation and never be allowed to return. Am I understanding your post correctly? If I am here is an example, I live in Michigan and this is what the statute is:

Michigan

Child Abuse and Neglect

Clergy as Mandatory Reporters of Child Abuse and Neglect
Citation: Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. § 722.623
A member of the clergy who has reasonable cause to suspect child abuse or neglect shall make immediately, by telephone or otherwise, an oral report, or cause on oral report to be made, of the suspected child abuse or neglect to the Family Independence Agency (department)
Citation: Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. § 722.631

Any legally recognized privileged communication except that between attorney and client or that made to a member of the clergy in his or her professional character in a confession or similarly confidential communication is abrogated and shall not constitute grounds for excusing a report otherwise required to be made or for excluding evidence in a civil protective proceeding resulting from a report made pursuant to this act. This section does not relieve a member of the clergy from reporting suspected child abuse or child neglect if that member of the clergy receives information concerning suspected child abuse or child neglect while acting in any other capacity listed under § 722.623.

https://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/state/

https://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/state/index.cfm?event=stateStatutes.processSearch

 

[savagewind]

Norman: Hi savagewind, Ok, I understand now, I have been following your post's on the Jehovah Witnesses and could not understand why you seemed so interested in what they believed and seem to be beating them into the ground. You are a former Jehovah Witness but I see you left that religion but can't seem now to leave it alone, why is that?

Haha Funny. I should leave another person's sins alone? That is not how I understand what a Christian is.

Tell me please how will YHVH set things right?

Isaiah 1:18 “Come, now, and let us set matters straight between us,” says Jehovah.+“Though your sins are like scarlet,They will be made as white as snow;+Though they are as red as crimson cloth,They will become like wool.

 

[savagewind]

I remember reading "try to readjust a person in the spirit of mildness". I suppose I am not being mild enough. I am not being mean. It is in your imagination that I am mean. Tell me please. What must a person have to have "spiritual qualifications"?

 

[Norman]

Jehovah's Witnesses' handling of child sex abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the question. A person's crimes are not announced to the congregation so OTHER parents should not know there is a sex offender among them.

Does no one see a problem with that?

Norman: Hi savagewind, Yes, the person should be announced over the podium so the congregation does know. I think this should
happen in every church or every non-denominational churches. It is incumbent upon the pastor or leader of any clergy to report child abuse
to the authorities and then over the podium to the congregation.

 

[savagewind]

Norman: Hi savagewind, Yes, the person should be announced over the podium so the congregation does know. I think this should
happen in every church or every non-denominational churches. It is incumbent upon the pastor or leader of any clergy to report child abuse
to the authorities and then over the podium to the congregation.

But the problem with them is with their strict dedication to God's Word which says no man should be found guilty with only one witness they can't do it.

 

[Norman]

Haha Funny. I should leave another person's sins alone? That is not how I understand what a Christian is.

Tell me please how will YHVH set things right?

Norman: Some day Jesus Christ will make things right thru his Atonement, he will be the final judge and will make things right. We just have to have
faith and hope and endure to the end. I worked with law enforcement for years and just like those who commit this heinous crime of child abuse will not only answer to the laws of the land but also to the laws of God. When I was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church at the behest of my Mother, I went to a catholic school all the way up to the fifth grade. I went home after catechism and told my Mother and Father that I did not any longer believe what was
being taught to me. I left the Roman Catholic Church and then I left it alone. I later embraced Judaism with my Father and later on
left Judaism. I left Judaism and then I left it alone. I now have been a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for
twenty-five years now. All I am saying is why put yourself through all of this, what would be the purpose as to why you continue to
talk about the Jehovah Witnesses and sometimes in a negative way? I am on your side, I have read your post's and I totally agree
with you about the child sexual abuse situations that arise. You have made some good post's about this topic.

 

[Norman]

But the problem with them is with their strict dedication to God's Word which says no man should be found guilty with only one witness they can't do it.

Norman: That is something that is bizarre to me. I admit that I do not understand this witness doctrine that the Jehovah Witnesses have in their doctrine. It
just doesn't seem right. One witness is more than enough to prosecute a child molester if that is all there was and the evidence was beyond a
reasonable doubt in a court of law. Sorry, I probably should not be talking legality in these threads.

 

[savagewind]

Negative: not desirable or optimistic.

It is them who believe anyone loving a lie will die. It is not my belief. Because they believe anyone on the liar's side at Armageddon will be judged guilty of everlasting sin they must be warned. Their own judgement WILL come upon them. I believe Jesus words. How you judge is how you will be judged. It is natural law.

 

[savagewind]

Norman: That is something that is bizarre to me. I admit that I do not understand this witness doctrine that the Jehovah Witnesses have in their doctrine. It
just doesn't seem right. One witness is more than enough to prosecute a child molester if that is all there was and the evidence was beyond a
reasonable doubt in a court of law. Sorry, I probably should not be talking legality in these threads.

It isn't right. So my talking about it is MEAN?

 

[savagewind]

In the History of the World how have things been changed? It wasn't by magic.

I am a peaceful demonstator. In fact the JWs would not be bothered by me a bit if they weren't here.

 

[Norman]

I remember reading "try to readjust a person in the spirit of mildness". I suppose I am not being mild enough. I am not being mean. It is in your imagination that I am mean. Tell me please. What must a person have to have "spiritual qualifications"?

Norman: I am not trying to upset you savagewind or falsely accuse you of any disparaging comments about your former faith. Maybe I should
have worded my thoughts differently. I do not understand your question "what must a person have to have "spiritual qualification's"?

 

[Norman]

In the History of the World how have things been changed? It wasn't by magic.

I am a peaceful demonstator. In fact the JWs would not be bothered by me a bit if they weren't here.

Norman: Yes, you are a peaceful demonstrator, I am sorry for falsely accusing you otherwise.

 

[savagewind]

Norman: I am not trying to upset you savagewind or falsely accuse you of any disparaging comments about your former faith. Maybe I should
have worded my thoughts differently. I do not understand your question "what must a person have to have "spiritual qualification's"?

Galatians 6 Brothers, even if a man takes a false step before he is aware of it, you who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness.+ But keep an eye on yourself,+ for fear you too may be tempted.+2 Go on carrying the burdens of one another,+ and in this way you will fulfill the law of the Christ.+3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing,+ he is deceiving himself.4 But let each one examine his own actions,+ and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person.+5 For each one will carry his own load.*+

New International Version
Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
New Living Translation
Dear brothers and sisters, if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself.
Young's Literal Translation
Brethren, if a man also may be overtaken in any trespass, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering thyself -- lest thou also may be tempted;
King James Bible
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

I did not know until now that the NWT adds "before he is aware of it"

 

[Norman]

Fine! The well being of male adults is more important that a child's well being. Why do I even bother??????

Norman: savagewind, is this the passage that you are referring to.
Matthew 18:16
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

 

[savagewind]

Norman: savagewind, is this the passage that you are referring to.
Matthew 18:16
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

That is one proof for their opinion.
1 Timothy 5:19
Do not entertain an accusation against an elder unless it is brought by two or three witnesses.
2 Corinthians 13:1
This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses."
Deuteronomy 19:15
One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

But then those must be balanced with these I think.

Hebrews 10:28
Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Deuteronomy 17:6
On the testimony of two or three witnesses a person is to be put to death, but no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.
Numbers 35:30
"'Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.

The two witness rule is to prevent a killing of the suspect in case he is innocent.

In the case of suspected child abuse the worst that can happen to the person is public humiliation (in house) and of course incarceration if found guilty by legal means. But for Christ we ALL should risk some kind of humiliation. The suspect, even if he or she were innocent, should be glad to suffer for the well being of God's children.