The two or three witness rule of Jehovah's Witnesses

[Christ's Prophet]

The Jehovah's Witnesses pattern themselves after the early Christian congregation. To the congregations Paul wrote "This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.". And of course he was Jewish and he knew this; Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
They use what the Bible says about two witnesses to set free members who are accused of child sexual abuse.
But there is a second witness. Every matter in the Christian congregation should be settle with prayer. "Where two or more are gathered in my name" says Jesus "I am there". Do the Jehovah's Witnesses think that Jesus does not know whenever a child is abused?
Matthew 10:29 Two sparrows sell for a coin of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge.

My Response:-
Respondents seem to be skirting around the issues. From a retired lawman you should consider the following:-

1. A child’s testimony is fragile at best and is easily manipulated, and therefore more solid evidence is required.
2. Circumstantial evidence can be called into play. People have been convicted on circumstantial evidence alone if the evidence is strong enough. Previous criminal history and other related circumstances can be brought into question.
3. There is also scientific evidence that can be brought into play in this present age. No.2 and 3 can be considered as ‘that other witness’.
4. Remember: Everyone is innocent and presumed to be innocent until proven guilty, this is the fundamental rule of common law.
5. We must keep in mind that God is the only One who can judge perfectly. We, on the other hand, can only judge imperfectly because of our fallen nature. You only have to look at numerous instances where people have gone to jail for years for crimes they did not commit. Judges in Courts of Law do get it wrong. So when we judge, we must judge in all carefulness and in the fear of God, knowing that He may well judge us with the same rule of determination.
6. Remember the legal standard of ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’.

7 I must ask the question ‘are you letting your sense of injustice consume you?’ Are you losing your peace because of it? If so, it can, in affect, be your idol, instead of putting God first. You must have wisdom in choosing your battles. Nothing is perfect this side of Heaven. I recommend that you hide yourself in Christ and find your peace in Him which surpasses all understanding, if indeed you have the Spirit of Christ in you? Remember what the Apostle Paul had to say:-
Romans 8:8:- So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Check yourself, are you one of His? Plenty to consider. Christ’s prophet. Certainty for eternity.

 

[katiemygirl]

It is OK for 6 million people to be out of control but shame on me for being out of control.

You are not out of control, but the person who accused you of it should be ashamed!

Did Skylar not read what you just wrote?

A little girl gets molested, and reports this to the elders. Unless another little girl comes forward, the elders can do nothing?

Are you kidding me? I'd say these elders must be out of their minds.

 

[savagewind]

Thank you Christ's Prophet. It is not about going to jail. It is about letting them keep sneaking around. Sometimes when a family comes forward with an accusation the elders who should so something do nothing. They do nothing until another witness can be found but it never can be found. I am sure they don't even look. The bad the elders do is they keep it HUSHED, private, confidential. If it was discovered the parents warning others what do you suppose would happen to them? I know. Many time it would be THEM (the parents) who would be censored. Really. It's crazy.

 

[katiemygirl]

Your beef with JW is getting a little out of control. Maybe you need therapy, someone to talk about it...

SW's beef is a very legitimate one. This organization, under the guise of being religious, has stood by and watched people die because they refuse to allow blood transfusions. And because of their misguided two witness rule, they turn their backs on people.

If you bothered to take the time to educate yourself about this destructive organization, you'd be supporting what SW is saying. SW was once a JW and knows what they do.

The LAST place you need to go to ask questions is to the JW's. Go to outside sources if you want truth.

 

[savagewind]

Thank you katiemygirl. Her opinion is OK. It keeps me awake.

 

[savagewind]

Maybe I should draw a picture for the JW apologists.

They say if you love Jesus you will side with the JWs. They say if you want to be on Jehovah's side (Almighty God and righteousness) you will side with the JWs. They say you must inculcate all JW dogma that you are able to INTO your children. JW dogma is similar to Pharisaical dogma in that it is very strict* and it is for 24/7. NOW add to that your child is molested by someone who is SUPPOSE TO BE on Jehovah's side for righteousness. You know something is wrong with him or her and by a miracle you discover it. I say a miracle because shame and confusion might cause the child to clam up and be afraid. So the parents go to the elders to report their suspicion. What do the elders do? NOTHING. OK?

*1. must learn to think like the Watchtower;
2. must learn to be convincing to teach it;
3.when you teach it you are saving souls;
4.you should teach it door to door or however you can in your spare time which is Saturday morning, Sunday afternoon, vacation and whenever you can
5. these rules are for children too
6. at school when parents bring in surprise sweets for their children JW children MUST stand for righteousness and abstain and the congregation is proud of them, not when they abstain but if they are able to explain it and start a Bible Study. (what age are we talking about? I don't know. 7?)
7. by a certain age (15?) if they are not showing a willingness to get baptized they must suffer it from elders, friends and family
8 a good JW father teaches his children that FUN is going to convention and preaching in the summer where the need is greatest. (I am sure it is fun for some people even for some entire families)

Here is a personal one. If at a convention your little child puts his feet up on the chair in front of him you are a BAD mother.

I have four children. Two were born when I was an active JW. While I raised them in the faith (I would teach them only what I knew to be true which is JESUS) I would sometimes meekly look up to heaven saying "God is it OK I am thankful my husband is atheist and prohibits me raising them JW?".

 

[SkylarHunter]

SW's beef is a very legitimate one. This organization, under the guise of being religious, has stood by and watched people die because they refuse to allow blood transfusions. And because of their misguided two witness rule, they turn their backs on people.

If you bothered to take the time to educate yourself about this destructive organization, you'd be supporting what SW is saying. SW was once a JW and knows what they do.

The LAST place you need to go to ask questions is to the JW's. Go to outside sources if you want truth.

Please give me five examples you know off someone who died because a JW didn't allow them to take blood. In a world of 8 billion I think you should be able to find that much. Keep in mind that adults should be able to decid which medical treatments they want. If I find myself in a situation like that tomorrow I want to know my options but I want the final decision to be mine. If I prefer to take my chances and die, it's no one else's business.

I know plenty of JWs and even though I'm familiar with their beliefs I wouldn't even need to know that much to respect them. Their behavior is more than enough for me to like them, admire their strength and wish that more people would be as kind and peaceful as they are.

I'm not a fan of organized religion at all but based on the examples I see, JW are one of the few religious groups I can stand.

 

[katiemygirl]

Please give me five examples you know off someone who died because a JW didn't allow them to take blood. In a world of 8 billion I think you should be able to find that much. Keep in mind that adults should be able to decid which medical treatments they want. If I find myself in a situation like that tomorrow I want to know my options but I want the final decision to be mine. If I prefer to take my chances and die, it's no one else's business.

I know plenty of JWs and even though I'm familiar with their beliefs I wouldn't even need to know that much to respect them. Their behavior is more than enough for me to like them, admire their strength and wish that more people would be as kind and peaceful as they are.

I'm not a fan of organized religion at all but based on the examples I see, JW are one of the few religious groups I can stand.

Do your own research, if you really care.

Open your eyes. There are many people from all religions who do good.

This is not about doing good. It's about being false teachers, which is what the Watchtower is.

It's not about JW's being nice people. One of my best friend's is a JW. Again, it is about false teaching.

Do you know anything at all about the Bible? If you did, then you would know that the Watchtower has blatantly abused Scripture to fit this false teaching about blood transfusions.

Tell me. Would you stand by and refuse to allow your child a blood transfusion in order to save his/her life? Or your sibling, parent, best friend? God does not sanction such a practice.

In 1931The Watchtower claimed vaccinations were a direct violation against God. They changed that doctrine in 1965. I wonder how many poor little kids got polio and died or were crippled before the doctrine was changed?

 

[savagewind]

There is no real way of knowing if a person who doctors say needs blood and doesn't take it and dies or takes it and lives if it was the blood which caused the positive or negative outcome so the argument will go on and on and on..... But I know for sure that the RULE of the governing body to abstain from blood is not rationally derived from scripture. It is a command which sets the JWs apart from everyone else and THAT is what is important to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

"Jehovah's witnesses do not argue that blood transfusions have not kept alive patients who otherwise might have died." Blood, Medicine and The Law of God p.38
"In former times thousands of youths died for putting God first. They are still doing it, only today the drama is played out in hospitals and courtrooms, with blood transfusions the issue."Awake! 1994 May 22 p.2
"But suppose one's wife or child were near death. Giving blood, no matter who the loved one might be, would still constitute a violation of God's law. Just because one is near death, this does not give one liberty to break God's commands. When one is near death is no time to tamper with or violate the law of God, but a time to draw as near as possible to God by remaining faithful. Everlasting life is the reward for faithfulness. How foolish it would be to gamble away the prospect of life eternal for the very uncertain promise of a cure by blood transfusion!"Watchtower 1970 Apr 15 p.249
The Watchtower Society conceded to the Australian Parliament that blood transfusions are at times essential to save lives. In the Hansard Committee, Vin Toole, representing the legal department of the Australian Branch of the Watchtower Society, makes such an admission.

"What we have said is that there may well be circumstances arise where it does become an absolute life and death issue."aph.gov.au as at 27th May 2006

Such is the case of Carolyn Ivey, born prematurely to Jehovah's Witness parents on Aug 31st 1975, weighing just 2 pounds. Doctors determined that a blood transfusion was required to save her and her twins life, and a young attorney worked tirelessly to ensure the twins received the required treatment. Julia did not survive but Carolyn did. The story picks up three decades later.

Jeremiah 7:30,31. "For the sons of Judah … burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart."

 

[kjw47]

The fact that you just posted 8 replies to yourself kinda makes my point.

PS - I don't know anything about a two witness rule but next time I see a JW I will ask them about it.

John 8:17

 

[savagewind]

John 8:17

That scripture isn't about domestic law. It's about God's witness Jesus. God is One, Jesus is two. I think your "true teachers" are failing miserably. Get out while you can I say.

 

[Norman]

An interesting developement in the thread. I explain the two witness rule of the JWs and someone says "settle your beef, but not here" and says "I don't know about the two witness rule but I'll ask those that know". I know it. My knowing it does not count JUST AS a child's knowing the abuser does not count. She has to go to the ones comitting it to get verification and the elders of the JWs have to go to the one commiting it to get verification.

The child and I do not matter. We should just SHUT UP and let those who don't need a doctor to deal with it. Haha

Norman: Hi savagewind, It is a law that any Church that had a member (s) who were accused of sexually conduct with a child has
to report it to the police even though there may not be enough evidence according to whatever accusation was should still be
reported to the police and let their detectives do the investigation. My Church has a hot line to report any accusations or misconduct
of a child being sexually assaulted. To my knowledge this is the case in all 50 states.

 

[kjw47]

That scripture isn't about domestic law. It's about God's witness Jesus. God is One, Jesus is two. I think your "true teachers" are failing miserably. Get out while you can I say.

I have learned from my teachers for years--they teach for free--do not get paid.
They teach us to get this deep into our hearts

Matt 6:33-- Therefore keep on seeking first the kingdom and his( Jehovah) righteousness, and all these other things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)

If only the teachers who were getting paid $ to teach, taught this single teaching to the over 500,000,000 million children who starved to death over the last 40 years or so, the permanent fix instead of the temporary fix they provided that did not save their lives, all would have lived--the JW teachers who you condemn teach this for free to anyone.

Jesus promised those 3 things would be provided by his Father to all who applied that single teaching--- too much to ask I guess of the teachers who get paid $ to teach and failed those 500,000,000 children.

My teachers are right.

 

[savagewind]

Norman: Hi savagewind, It is a law that any Church that had a member (s) who were accused of sexually conduct with a child has
to report it to the police even though there may not be enough evidence according to whatever accusation was should still be
reported to the police and let their detectives do the investigation. My Church has a hot line to report any accusations or misconduct
of a child being sexually assaulted. To my knowledge this is the case in all 50 states.

This is a new law. A group called Silence of the Lambs has worked tirelessly for many years to get that law passed.

 

[Norman]

This is a new law. A group called Silence of the Lambs has worked tirelessly for many years to get that law passed.

Norman: Hi savagewind, Yes, to my knowledge any Church has to report whether it is accusation or factual of any sexual misconduct
against a child. I personally have not heard of "Silence of the Lambs," I will check out there website.

 

[savagewind]

The reason why some congregations keep accusations of child abuse private is that their image is one thing which draws more people to them and news of sex offenders in the ranks tarnishes their good reputation.

 

[lockyfan]

Yes Jehovahs Witnesses go by the "Two Witnesses rule
however when it comes to child abuse they don't "let the person go" or they don't do that these days anyway.
they watch the person who has been accused and give them a second chance. They make sure the body of elders are aware and the toilets at the Kingdom halls are watched for a sign of that person following any children to the bathroom

They also write a letter and inform the branch office and make sure this person is not allowed any privilege in the congregation.
it is then up to the individual family if they want to advise the police or not.

Savagewind. I dont know why you are upset by Jehovahs Witnesses but you are quite welcome to pm me if you so wish, as long as it is polite

Anything that has been proven is immediately reported to the police. Two witnesses rule is for anything, including sexual abuse. Jehovahs Witnesses have a list of Paedophiles so they cant be given responsibilities within the congregation. it is to protect them. Any that are proven are also removed from the congregation to protect it and other members.

 

[savagewind]

Yes Jehovahs Witnesses go by the "Two Witnesses rule
however when it comes to child abuse they don't "let the person go" or they don't do that these days anyway.
they watch the person who has been accused and give them a second chance. They make sure the body of elders are aware and the toilets at the Kingdom halls are watched for a sign of that person following any children to the bathroom

They also write a letter and inform the branch office and make sure this person is not allowed any privilege in the congregation.
it is then up to the individual family if they want to advise the police or not.

Anything that has been proven is immediately reported to the police. Two witnesses rule is for anything, including sexual abuse. Jehovahs Witnesses have a list of Paedophiles so they cant be given responsibilities within the congregation. it is to protect them. Any that are proven are also removed from the congregation to protect it and other members.

The evidence suggests men who had been accused of child molestation WERE given privileges. Now you say that is changed. That is good but I am sorry I can't thank the governing body for waking up about it. I am sure the new rule was caused by the legal fights against the organization. It is costing the Jehovah's Witnesses a lot of money. The reason is they would allow an accused brother privileges. I know that when a person of the congregation has any privileges allowed him or her it means they are considered fine and upstanding. That is a fact.

Savagewind. I dont know why you are upset by Jehovahs Witnesses but you are quite welcome to pm me if you so wish, as long as it is polite

OK. Thank you. By try as I might I think I can't be polite to people who are misleading and being misled. You know the Bible. Were the prophets who came to warn the people polite? I think not.

Paul was polite but he was special. I am not Paul.

 

[lockyfan]

The evidence suggests men who had been accused of child molestation WERE given privileges. Now you say that is changed. That is good but I am sorry I can't thank the governing body for waking up about it. I am sure the new rule was caused by the legal fights against the organization. It is costing the Jehovah's Witnesses a lot of money. The reason is they would allow an accused brother privileges. I know that when a person of the congregation has any privileges allowed him or her it means they are considered fine and upstanding. That is a fact.

Yes there is also a question regarding this in which someone who has been known or has had this against them are then not put up.
If it is found, they can and will be removed

OK. Thank you. By try as I might I think I can't be polite to people who are misleading and being misled. You know the Bible. Were the prophets who came to warn the people polite? I think not.

Paul was polite but he was special. I am not Paul.

Of course they were unless it needed to be put between the eyes.
What makes you think i am misleading and being mislead?

 

[savagewind]

What makes you think i am misleading and being mislead?

Jesus promised to send a helper. The helper he promised to send came to the apostle first of course and then to the people for writing down the record of Jesus' presence. Jesus promised to be with everyone who teaches and baptises. He is for anyone who has the mind to hear him. (see Revelations "hear what The Spirit says to the congregations").

Then in the late 1800's some people believe and teach God would not be sending the Spirit Helper anymore. Now God would use the Governing Body of The Jehovah's Witnesses to replace The Spirit of God. They don't even profess to know The Helper. They say that to know God one must reason from scripture like they tell you to.