The two or three witness rule of Jehovah's Witnesses

[Mountain_Climber]

I suppose no answer will ever come of the question why is it so wrong, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses, to remove elder privileges from a man who is accused of child molestation?

And no answer will come for this one either I am sure but it is some food for thought. When the Catholic Church was in the news for moving around priests who were accused of child abuse why didn't the Jehovah's Witnesses speak up for the defense of The Catholic Church and tell everyone that it is God's will a man in power stay in power whenever there are not two or more witnesses to a crime?

If another one of the sheep have publicized accusations against him or her, how do they handle it?

It should be no different.

 

[savagewind]

If another one of the sheep have publicized accusations against him or her, how do they handle it?

It should be no different.

I can't make sense out of your response.

 

[savagewind]

Do you mean that each abuse is witnessed by no one else then each time the perp should get away with it like they do?

 

[savagewind]

1000 Jehovah's Witnesses alleged to have committed child abuse. Not one was reported to police according to CNN.

 

[Regal_Begal]

The Jehovah's Witnesses pattern themselves after the early Christian congregation. To the congregations Paul wrote "This will be my third visit to you. "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.". And of course he was Jewish and he knew this; Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

They use what the Bible says about two witnesses to set free members who are accused of child sexual abuse.

But there is a second witness. Every matter in the Christian congregation should be settle with prayer. "Where two or more are gathered in my name" says Jesus "I am there". Do the Jehovah's Witnesses think that Jesus does not know whenever a child is abused?

Matthew 10:29 Two sparrows sell for a coin of small value, do they not? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground without your Father’s knowledge.

However, when they do not have two witnesses they do yet mark the individual as one to be closely watched, although yet to be regarded as a brother or sister until it can be made sure of that the accusations against that brother or sister are not credulously made.

But then there is where it gets sensitive, for the attitude of society in general is toward prematurely villainizing a person whenever a child makes such an accusation and that has proved to ruin the lives of many a man.

I knew of one case where the man was accused by his daughter of sexual misconduct and then the moment she found out that it did not mean she would be removed and placed in the detention home where her friend had been sent to live, she up and told the truth that she made the entire story up. But that town still crucified her father to the point he lost all employability and and fell hopelessly in debt. And this girl even eventually took a lie detector test which supported that she was telling the truth about having made it all up so that she could get put in the detention home to be with her friend.

What I feel about it won't change the evil thing people are doing because of the evil they rightly hate. But I am a Jehovah's Witness and I know how these things really work. And i know that it is evil to exaggerate things out of proportion that one was not close enough to in order to really know about.

Am I saying it never has happened among the witnesses? No. But I am saying that they do everything that is humanly possible to stand against it happening or continuing to happen as soon as the first hint of it arises, admirably seeking to not falsely punish anyone.

And they do at times bring the authorities in, actually encouraging the offended party to obey the law and make the complaint with the authorities.

I mean, would you rather that your church elders were like the crackpot neighbor who accuses you of abusing your children to the children services before he or she talks to you? That goes against nature. Nature made you the parent and it is to you they should speak before flying off the handle.

I guarantee no body of elders would seek to cover such a thing up and I can tell you exactly why. The counsel Paul gave in 1 Corinthians chapter 5 clearly tells them to turn such a man over to the world to be judged and Paul further supports that at Romans chapter 13.

But haters of Jehovah' Witnesses will not be satisfied lest they can manufacture an appearance of serious error against elders who are willing to shoulder what are often very unclear and complicated matters in a manner that honors God and men.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

However, when they do not have two witnesses they do yet mark the individual as one to be closely watched, although yet to be regarded as a brother or sister until it can be made sure of that the accusations against that brother or sister are not credulously made.

But then there is where it gets sensitive, for the attitude of society in general is toward prematurely villainizing a person whenever a child makes such an accusation and that has proved to ruin the lives of many a man.

I knew of one case where the man was accused by his daughter of sexual misconduct and then the moment she found out that it did not mean she would be removed and placed in the detention home where her friend had been sent to live, she up and told the truth that she made the entire story up. But that town still crucified her father to the point he lost all employability and and fell hopelessly in debt. And this girl even eventually took a lie detector test which supported that she was telling the truth about having made it all up so that she could get put in the detention home to be with her friend.

What I feel about it won't change the evil thing people are doing because of the evil they rightly hate. But I am a Jehovah's Witness and I know how these things really work. And i know that it is evil to exaggerate things out of proportion that one was not close enough to in order to really know about.

Am I saying it never has happened among the witnesses? No. But I am saying that they do everything that is humanly possible to stand against it happening or continuing to happen as soon as the first hint of it arises, admirably seeking to not falsely punish anyone.

And they do at times bring the authorities in, actually encouraging the offended party to obey the law and make the complaint with the authorities.

I mean, would you rather that your church elders were like the crackpot neighbor who accuses you of abusing your children to the children services before he or she talks to you? That goes against nature. Nature made you the parent and it is to you they should speak before flying off the handle.

I guarantee no body of elders would seek to cover such a thing up and I can tell you exactly why. The counsel Paul gave in 1 Corinthians chapter 5 clearly tells them to turn such a man over to the world to be judged and Paul further supports that at Romans chapter 13.

But haters of Jehovah' Witnesses will not be satisfied lest they can manufacture an appearance of serious error against elders who are willing to shoulder what are often very unclear and complicated matters in a manner that honors God and men.

Oh, I just replied to your comment in the Law thread but I did not know you were a Jehovah's Witness. We could have some good discussions if you are open to having them with me?

And by the way, I am not a hater of Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't hate any people of any faith. I hate one thing only and that is the harm that falsehood causes us, and I mean even my own falsehood should any remain hidden from my conscious mind.

 

[savagewind]

Am I saying it never has happened among the witnesses? No. But I am saying that they do everything that is humanly possible to stand against it happening or continuing to happen as soon as the first hint of it arises, admirably seeking to not falsely punish anyone.

No, they do not do everything humanly possible.

They could remove the person from privileges which would be a quiet sign to others in the congregation that the person is to be avoided.
They could give the case to the proper authorities to investigate.
They could quietly tell parents of young children in the congregation that reports have been heard regarding a certain person and to beware.
They could have more Watchtower articles published to help brothers (and sisters) to resist that sin.
They could refuse to EVER grant elder status to someone who has had a accusation against them.

If I think of more I shall add them to the list.

 

[savagewind]

I am going to guess that there has never been a Watchtower or Kingdom Ministry article which warns brothers not to touch or to use children.

To have such an article often enough would warn congregants that there must be people in Jehovah's Witness's Spiritual Paradise who might harm children and to beware. You see, a spiritual paradise, which the Christain Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses advertises that they are, does not have pedophiles. Does it?
People assuming the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses are telling the truth about a spiritual paradise must also assume that any JW in it would never do such a thing. Publishing such articles might also help people who have such urges to resist.

 

[Regal_Begal]

No, they do not do everything humanly possible.

They could remove the person from privileges which would be a quiet sign to others in the congregation that the person is to be avoided.
They could give the case to the proper authorities to investigate.
They could quietly tell parents of young children in the congregation that reports have been heard regarding a certain person and to beware.
They could have more Watchtower articles published to help brothers (and sisters) to resist that sin.
They could refuse to EVER grant elder status to someone who has had a accusation against them.

If I think of more I shall add them to the list.

Well, if that is your opinion then that is your opinion.

Still, it sounds to me like you are speaking of some place I have never found or visited.

You would have them shirk their responsibility to do as Christ directed them to do on the basis that the world has a different idea of what should be done in particular instances?

The truth is that even hospitals are not required by law to report things on the basis of shear rumor. It is only when the hospital sees physical signs of evidence that the hospital is required to report it.

Why would you demand that it be different for Jehovah's Witnesses?

I can see no other reason for demanding something different of Jehovah's Witnesses than that one has an ulterior hate motive.

 

[Regal_Begal]

I am going to guess that there has never been a Watchtower or Kingdom Ministry article which warns brothers not to touch or to use children.

To have such an article often enough would warn congregants that there must be people in Jehovah's Witness's Spiritual Paradise who might harm children and to beware. You see, a spiritual paradise, which the Christain Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses advertises that they are, does not have pedophiles. Does it?
People assuming the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses are telling the truth about a spiritual paradise must also assume that any JW in it would never do such a thing. Publishing such articles might also help people who have such urges to resist.

Yes there have been such articles and for the reason that Jude plainly warned such men do creep in while the many are unaware of their presence.

You have an unreasonable concept of what Jehovah's Witnesses teach, one which seems clearly to be tailored to your own goal of picking for fault.

 

[Regal_Begal]

Oh, I just replied to your comment in the Law thread but I did not know you were a Jehovah's Witness. We could have some good discussions if you are open to having them with me?

And by the way, I am not a hater of Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't hate any people of any faith. I hate one thing only and that is the harm that falsehood causes us, and I mean even my own falsehood should any remain hidden from my conscious mind.

I never thought you were a hater of Jehovah's Witnesses. See the puzzled look on my face?

As for speaking to you, I saw that you have many interesting ideas when I looked through the Law thread.

I am firmly a supporter of Jehovah's Witnesses as a vehicle used of God to penetrate every crack and crevice of the earth with curiosity to get them searching out the message of Christ.

That does not mean I see them as being infallible in this present world and I well know we have much more to learn.

So your ideas are not unwelcome and I would be happy to discuss them with you.

 

[savagewind]

Well, if that is your opinion then that is your opinion.

Still, it sounds to me like you are speaking of some place I have never found or visited.

You would have them shirk their responsibility to do as Christ directed them to do on the basis that the world has a different idea of what should be done in particular instances?

The truth is that even hospitals are not required by law to report things on the basis of shear rumor. It is only when the hospital sees physical signs of evidence that the hospital is required to report it.

Why would you demand that it be different for Jehovah's Witnesses?

I can see no other reason for demanding something different of Jehovah's Witnesses than that one has an ulterior hate motive.

That is in answer to only one item. What about the fact that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses does not offer articles for teaching the wrongness of it?

The Bible says that an accusation against a brother is bad enough so I think it would be proper according to Bible wisdom to refuse priviledges for a person accused of improper conduct, whether he did it or not. Eldership and servant positions are a privilege that should be accorded only men with no accusations against them. 1 Timothy 3:10 Colossians 1:22

To hold priviledges in the Chrisatin congregation is to be blameless and above reproach. If it was known that a child or children had a case against someone, that someone, whether he did it or not, would NOT be above reproach.

Also, the family of a child who was abused by a Christian brother who got to keep his status would have to admit to themselves they they mattered less than the brother who might have committed a crime.

The fact is there is PLENTY proof that the congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses DO NOT do what they can to help victims or possible victims. They do NOTHING.

 

[savagewind]

What I said is that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses have never (I think never - please correct me if I am wrong) written articles which warn Christian brothers not to touch children in inappropriate ways. Why not? Why are there no articles written to warn Christians that to mistreat children is wrong? The fact that there isn't much written that would suggest that Christians do that kind of thing too means that Jehovah's Witness parents can let their guard down about letting their children go out in the field service without their parents.

Do you understand?

Why are there few or no articles which might suggest that there are pedophiles in the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses?

I know why. Do you want to know why?

 

[averageJOE]

Am I saying it never has happened among the witnesses? No. But I am saying that they do everything that is humanly possible to stand against it happening or continuing to happen as soon as the first hint of it arises, admirably seeking to not falsely punish anyone.

And they do at times bring the authorities in, actually encouraging the offended party to obey the law and make the complaint with the authorities.

I mean, would you rather that your church elders were like the crackpot neighbor who accuses you of abusing your children to the children services before he or she talks to you? That goes against nature. Nature made you the parent and it is to you they should speak before flying off the handle.

I guarantee no body of elders would seek to cover such a thing up and I can tell you exactly why. The counsel Paul gave in 1 Corinthians chapter 5 clearly tells them to turn such a man over to the world to be judged and Paul further supports that at Romans chapter 13.

But haters of Jehovah' Witnesses will not be satisfied lest they can manufacture an appearance of serious error against elders who are willing to shoulder what are often very unclear and complicated matters in a manner that honors God and men.

The bold part is either an intentional lie on your part, or you are just misinformed.

Not to mention Jonathan Kendrick was still allowed to go out in field service even after he admitted to sexually abusing children.

 

[Regal_Begal]

What I said is that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses have never (I think never - please correct me if I am wrong) written articles which warn Christian brothers not to touch children in inappropriate ways. Why not? Why are there no articles written to warn Christians that to mistreat children is wrong? The fact that there isn't much written that would suggest that Christians do that kind of thing too means that Jehovah's Witness parents can let their guard down about letting their children go out in the field service without their parents.

Do you understand?

Why are there few or no articles which might suggest that there are pedophiles in the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses?

I know why. Do you want to know why?

Are you saying there where I highlighted it in red that you need someone to tell you that touching a child inappropriately or even having sexual thoughts toward a child is wrong before you know it is wrong?

It is common knowledge that such men do try to creep into the organization. When one is found to be a likely offender they are immediately placed under public reproof which warns the flock to be wary of them. On top of that such ones are disallowed field service privileges until it can be shown that they are innocent or have changed, and that can take years. This is so that children do not need worry they are going out in field service with pedophiles as well as to not allow such ones to represent us to the public. Clear offenders are immediately turned over to the world for discipline, with all membership privileges removed from them. And when that happens the congregation is instructed as to the basic scriptural reasons why, and from that are able to know basically what sort of offense such a one has committed. And what sanctions are given in any one congregation follows the offender to any other congregation they may thereafter seek entry into.

Further, not being a JW, you evidently do not realize that most of the talks from the platform in each congregation is governed by an outline from the Society and is no where to be found in printed article form. So you cannot go by what has been printed as if it is proof that the congregations receive no instruction in these things.

You just for one reason or another desire it to be your way.

Added: Another thing that proves you know nothing about Jehovah's Witnesses is your erroneous idea that they let their children go out into service apart from qualified adult supervision. Even requiring that only so many children be permitted to be supervised by each individual qualified adult.

You are trying deliberately to paint a false picture.

 

[savagewind]

Are you saying there where I highlighted it in red that you need someone to tell you that touching a child inappropriately or even having sexual thoughts toward a child is wrong before you know it is wrong?

It is common knowledge that such men do try to creep into the organization. When one is found to be a likely offender they are immediately placed under public reproof which warns the flock to be wary of them. On top of that such ones are disallowed field service privileges until it can be shown that they are innocent or have changed, and that can take years. This is so that children do not need worry they are going out in field service with pedophiles as well as to not allow such ones to represent us to the public. Clear offenders are immediately turned over to the world for discipline, with all membership privileges removed from them. And when that happens the congregation is instructed as to the basic scriptural reasons why, and from that are able to know basically what sort of offense such a one has committed. And what sanctions are given in any one congregation follows the offender to any other congregation they may thereafter seek entry into.

Further, not being a JW, you evidently do not realize that most of the talks from the platform in each congregation is governed by an outline from the Society and is no where to be found in printed article form. So you cannot go by what has been printed as if it is proof that the congregations receive no instruction in these things.

You just for one reason or another desire it to be your way.

Added: Another thing that proves you know nothing about Jehovah's Witnesses is your erroneous idea that they let their children go out into service apart from qualified adult supervision. Even requiring that only so many children be permitted to be supervised by each individual qualified adult.

You are trying deliberately to paint a false picture.

You are making up what it SHOULD be. Truth is about what it IS. OK. Now I feel better and I shall read the post in full with an open mind.

 

[savagewind]

Are you saying there where I highlighted it in red that you need someone to tell you that touching a child inappropriately or even having sexual thoughts toward a child is wrong before you know it is wrong?

The Watchtower publishes what is to be avoided and what is right. Yes? Everyone is a sinner. Correct? You say pedophiles "try to creep into the organization". For your information, some of them become elders. Why are men who "creep into the congregation" made elders?

 

[Regal_Begal]

The bold part is either an intentional lie on your part, or you are just misinformed.

Not to mention Jonathan Kendrick was still allowed to go out in field service even after he admitted to sexually abusing children.

The elder in the first video supported what I said that they do report it to the authorities when the situation warrants it.

The prosecutor was unfairly trying to lead with a biased opinion and I think that elder did well despite the poor manner in which that prosecutor was handling his job. But you are choosing to play into the prosecutor's bias and that is your choice to make.

In so far as video two is concerned such news is easy to create and while there may be some truth to it we cannot know for certain how much.

But I can tell you first hand that the way it seems you would prefer it to be is not how it is. The News Media has always been a popular political propaganda tool so believe what you will.

There are a great many ousted witnesses who would at the drop of a coin be willing to make false accusations. That is to be expected. Some are ex-Catholics who are yet resentful of the Society's publicizing the problem in the Catholic church. And again that is to be expected.

But you are quite welcome to judge it your desired way. The scriptures would have lied if there did not come to be many who would do that.

 

[Regal_Begal]

You are making up what it SHOULD be. Truth is about what it IS. OK. Now I feel better and I shall read the post in full with an open mind.

No, I am speaking the truth as to how it is.

You are speaking what you do not know. You most certainly do not know anything about the Witnesses and if you have ever even visited them for a while you never had the heart to learn much about them, even if you think you did.

 

[savagewind]

This is what it IS. IS, OK?

An elder , a ministerial servant or a lowly publisher (someone going door to door) get accused of child molestation. But what about his reputation? The society guards it. By doing so, they are ACTUALLY accusing the accuser of lying or making something up to cause dissension which IS a sin.

By the Watchtower Society's method, the lesser important person (the child and his parents) gets censored but the possible evildoer gets shelter.