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The Tyre prophecy

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to 1robin: You have placed too much importance on Alexander. Other than Nebuchadnezzar, Ezekiel did not specify which nations over the next 500 years would attack either settlement.

You said that Alexander was the first to use naval siege machines, but so what? Consider the following:

Siege engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia said:
The earliest engine was the battering ram, developed by the Assyrians, followed by the catapult in ancient Greece. The Spartans used battering rams in the Siege of Plataea in 429 BC, but it seems that the Greeks limited their use of siege engines to assault ladders, though Peloponnesian forces used something resembling flamethrowers.

The first Mediterranean people to use advanced siege machinery were the Carthaginians, who used siege towers and battering rams against the Greek colonies of Sicily. These engines influenced the ruler of Syracuse, Dionysius I, who developed a catapult in 399 BC.

The first two rulers to make use of siege engines to a large extent were Philip II of Macedonia and Alexander the Great.

Alexander did not invent siege machines. The evolution of siege machines would have happened anyway. Anyone who wanted to conquer the island fortress with a navy would have needed to use siege engines to conquer it.

In your first post in this thread, you mentioned an article at Ezekiel 26:1-14: A Proof Text For Inerrancy or Fallibility of The Old Testament?. It says:

biblearchaeology.org said:
The total destruction of Tyre would be accomplished gradually by one nation after another.

So there was at least 500 years for the destruction of the island fortress to occur.

In my post 162, I showed that Alexander's siege machines on the causeway did not breach the walls, and that that was accomplished by ships. Once that ships had breached the walls, Alexander's solders quickly defeated the city. There is no evidence that the siege machines on the causeway significantly damaged the island fortress.

In my posts 154, and 156, I show that verses 6-11 refer only to the mainland settlement, and only to Nebuchadnezzar, and that all of the other verses refer only to the island settlement, and never to Nebuchadnezzar.

You said:

1robin said:
They is the meat of the issue.......It uses pluralities in every case where more than Nebuchadnezzar was needed to accomplish what it stated. It uses the singular in every single case where only what Nebuchadnezzar accomplished what was mentioned.

I agree, and that it the basis that I used for my posts 154, and 156.

I have mentioned a conservative Christian named James Holding to you before, and I told you about his main website at Tekton Education and Apologetics Ministries, James Patrick Holding. Holding is a gifted amateur. His website is extensive, and even some skeptic Bible scholars have said that he knows a lot about the Bible, but of course, they often disagree with him regarding many issues. Holding has read about two books a week for decades, and has forgotten more about the Bible than you will ever know. He has an article on the Tyre prophecy at Ezekiel Tyre prophecy defended. Consider the following excerpts from the article:

James Holding said:
Verses 3-5 and 12-14 are "I/they" verses -- and form a minor chiastic structure around the central core of verses describing Nebuchadnezzar's actions alone. The linguistic pattern of this passage indicates that the "they" of v. 12 are the nations of v. 4. Not only is the pronoun ("they") the same, but in addition, only in these verses is Adonai YHWH the sole leader, and two unique actions -- net spreading, scraping -- are the same as those ascribed to the nations in 3-5.

Slaying of the enemy is ascribed throughout the oracle, as would be expected of a common element of war.

Bottom line: "they" in v. 12 does not refer to Nebuchadnezzar and his army.......

If verses 3-5, and 12-14, do not refer to Nebuchadnezzar, then they also do not refer to the mainland settlement.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
No weapon that existed more than 500 years later nor tactic was mentioned. Every tactic, methodology, and weapon existed pre 1st century.

Even the Romans stopped using axes to break down towers long before than.

Although it is plausible that someone other than Alexander would have defeated the island fortress with 500 years, there is no need to limit the time frame to 500 years.

In the KJV, Ezekiel 26:9 says:

“And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.”

The NIV translates the verse as:

“He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons.”

The NASB translates the verse as:

“The blow of his battering rams he will direct against your walls, and with his [f]axes he will break down your towers.”

The footnote says “Lit swords,” which I think means “literally swords.”

I do not think that “axes” is the best word to use to translate whatever the Hebrew says.

Do you have any evidence that Alexander’s forces used axes against the towers of the island fortress? Many ancient towers were made of stone, not wood. If the island fortress had towers, they might have been made of stone, not wood. I assume that axes would not be used against stone towers.

Alexander used battering rams to breach the walls of the fortress, and he did some lesser damage to the walls with siege machines. Siege machines, and battering rams were used in the siege of Constantinople in 717-718 A.D., and in the Crusades after 1,000 A.D. Siege machines, and battering rams improved after Alexander’s time, but they still used the same basic principles, and those principles did not change until cannons were used after 1200 A.D.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to 1robin: When Nebuchadnezzar left Babylon for Tyre, if Ezekiel was a slave in Babylon at that time, I assume that when Nebuchadnezzar left, many, if not most people in Babylon knew that he was going to Tyre.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to 1robin: I would like to add the following to my post 156:

Wikipedia said:
In ancient times, the island city of Tyre was heavily fortified (with defensive walls 150 feet (46 m) high[10]) and the mainland settlement, originally called Ushu (later called Palaetyrus, meaning "Old Tyre," by the Greeks) was actually more like a line of suburbs than any one city and was used primarily as a source of water and timber for the main island city. Josephus records that the two fought against each other on occasion, although most of the time they supported one another because they both benefited from the island city's wealth from maritime trade and the mainland area's source of timber, water and burial grounds.

That is additional evidence that the island settlement, and the mainland settlement were essentially two different cities by the time that Nebuchadnezzar attacked the mainland settlement.

Except for verses 6-11, all other verses refer only to the island settlement, and never to the mainland settlement, and never to Nebuchadnezzar.
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
Message to 1robin: I would like to add the following to my post 156:



That is additional evidence that the island settlement, and the mainland settlement were essentially two different cities by the time that Nebuchadnezzar attacked the mainland settlement.

Except for verses 6-11, all other verses refer only to the island settlement, and never to the mainland settlement, and never to Nebuchadnezzar.
Agnostic that is 10 posts in a row from you in one thread including 7 that actually had content. I can't keep up and work as well. I will answer this one and go back and answer anything I see that is more interesting that the rest. Sorry.


They were not two distinct cities politically. The island simply overflowed onto the mainland. It is very common in history to have that occur. They were physically seperate if that is what you meant.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
You said that in your post 76.
I said everyone would either be killed or enslaved. I did not say everyone would be killed. Actually that was true except for a few that were in the temple historically. The point was some very improbable apocalyptic event was predicted and occurred.





Ezekiel had no idea that Alexander would ever be born, let alone build a causeway to the island, which turned out to be a bad idea since the siege machines that he put there were not able to breach the walls, and it took ships to do that. All of the historical sources that I checked at the Internet show that the walls were breached from ships, not from the causeway.
Good grief so now your criticizing one of histories greatest military geniuses. Let me fix that first. The causeway was a necessity. At that time you could never get enough people into a boat to subdue a fortress that strong even if you knocked a whole in it. The ships only spread out the force and required guarding all walls at the same time. Most of the men entered through the siege tower. In fact it is said if Alexander had not leapt from the siege tower onto the wall the attack would have failed. The causeway was extremely difficult to create but was a necessity and even if it wasn't obvious you are far less convincing than the man who took over 4/5ths of the known world and was there. He defeated armies that outnumbered his ten to one.

Ezekiel must have believed that only ships would be used to defeat the island settlement, so he would not have predicted anything about a causeway being built to the island fortress to defeat it, or to help defeat it. So if what Ezekiel expected would happen had actually happened, meaning that the remains of the island fortress would be cast into the sea, without a causeway being built, his prophecy would have probably failed since without the causeway, it is probable that the island fortress would have been rebuilt by whoever conquered it, certainly not by the inhabitants, and certainly not by allies of Tyre.
That is not how prophesy works. Prophecies are not given to bi historical continuous narratives. They have varying purposes but usually involve a sense of doom or great joy communicated through snap shots not documentary type languages. The causeway is reflected in their throwing the rubble in the water. What are you going to bother throwing tons of material in the water if not for a causeway? Anyway think of prophecies as snap shots meant to convey intent not a historical narrative.

Quite naturally, after Alexander built the causeway, and expanded it, that would have discouraged attempts to rebuild the fortress since it would have been accessible by land

You could argue that the building of the causeway proves that God inspired the Tyre prophecy since even though it was not used to defeat the island fortress, its presence helped to ensure that the fortress would never be rebuilt. It is true that the presence of the causeway helped to ensure that the fortress would never be rebuilt, but that does not reasonably prove divine inspiration. You cannot show that the odds against anyone building a causeway to the island by say 1200 A.D., or even by 100 B.C., are so high that Ezekiel's prediction that the island fortress would never be rebuilt was inspired by God.
It serves little purpose to see how God went about what he did. God is the agent, the means are irrelevant. He kept people out of Babylon without needing a causeway. Fortresses exist on just about every island that exists causeways or not. Fortresses even exist on continents which are one continuous causeway.

Exodus 15:4 says "Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea." Mark 9:42 says "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea." Luke 17:2 says "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."
That is not about Tyre.

Please note that nothing subsequent to those events was mentioned since just being cast into the sea was sufficient to reap disgrace on the enemy. Similarly, if the remains of the island fortress had been cast into the sea, and nothing else happened, that would have been sufficient to reap disgrace on the enemy. A causeway being built to the island was not necessary in order for the walls of the fortress to be cast into the sea, and in fact, the causeway had little or nothing to do with parts of the walls falling into the sea since ships did most of the damage to the fortress.
God is not bound by precedent. The mechanism he uses on day is not mandated for the next event. That is a weird argument. Since the causeway was not in the prophecy it is irrelevant. Two things are that are related. The rubble being thrown into the sea and the walls all being dismantled. Both are very improbable yet both happened. That is all that matters, God is not bound by your estimates of efficiency. I can only give your originality points.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
On the contrary, the website only quoted Arrian, and does not have any commentary at all. As most ancient historians know, Arrian is widely acknowledged by scholars as one of the best ancient sources on Alexander, and some scholars say that he is the best ancient source on Alexander. Wikipedia says;



Following is some more information about Arrian:

Arrian Campaigns of Alexander (Anabasis) Summary
He is widely known to have written what he thought Alexander wanted to hear. He even went well beyond even that. In one case Alexander threw his entire manuscript in the sea saying no one would believe that. However what is it he wrote that I disagreed with? It may not be an issue.



So there is good reason to believe that Alexander had the religious motive that Arrian mentioned for attacking the island fortress, not just strategic motives. Arrian also mentioned some strategic motives.
I don't think there was much of a strategic motive at all. He originally intended to bypass it all together. Only when his messengers were killed did he decide to attack, and only when his camp was raided did he decide on annihilation. There may be some theological reasons as well, I don't know, but they are not important. Method is not important. Only prediction and result are for prophetic claims.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
What evidence have you used from other prophecies to try to verify the Tyre prophecy?
I don't need any but I think there is one in Daniel. He covers Alexander's rise to power and quick desolation after death.

If a few prophecies could be reasonably proven to have been inspired by God, that might be plausible evidence that all of them were inspired by God, but you have not provided any reasonable evidence that any of them were inspired by God.
We have only been discussing one. I have certainly provided a better case for it's truth that you have for it's being false. Would you please quit with that reasonable proof stuff. What is it? According to who? Why do I have that burden? It is a term so ambiguous as to be meaningless and irrelevant. I only must show that there are no defeaters, I have. I have also chosen the higher but unrequired burden of showing the supernatural source is the best explanation, I have. The best you have done is to show one or two of the dozen prophetic details could (though it is almost impossible) have been discovered by natural means. Along time ago we decided Tyre was too big to discuss anything and it at the same time but if you want 350 prophecies about one man see this link: http://www.accordingtothescriptures.org/prophecy/353prophecies.html

When you debate prophecy A, you cannot intelligently claim that B verifies A, and then when you debate B claim that C verifies B, and then when you debate C claim that D verifies C, but that is what you are trying to do. You have to start somewhere. If you want to start with the Tyre prophecy, that is fine. If you want to stop debating the Tyre prophecy, and debate some other prophecy, that is fine, but you cannot get away with claiming that a group of prophecies that we have never discussed reasonably proves the prophecy that we are discussing, which is the Tyre prophecy.
I need nothing else whatever to have faith in Ezekiel's prophecy. I simply offered to you something that you may find adds weight. I was not trying to verify Ezekiel by Daniel or anyone. I have no need to. Ezekiel has hardly been scratched so far.

But the Babylon prophecy was adequately refuted by skeptics centuries ago.
Man that is ridiculous. What you actually mean is that you managed to find some redactionists and revisionists who claim they found problems with it. That will always be the case, in history, in law, in science. The Bible predicts Babylon would slowly implode and then never be significantly inhabited again. That is exactly what happened.

An evil God cannot be the God of the Bible, but that is exactly my point, which is that God is not the kind of God that the Bible claims he is.Nothing there, or elsewhere in the article, reasonably disproves my arguments. All that is required for my arguments to be true is that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and evil. Obviously, an evil God who is omnipotent, and omniscient, would easily be able to pretend to be good, to predict the future, and to do good works.
You could not possibly know this, it contradicts claims you made earlier, and I have no idea why you said it at all. God is good by definition and right by nature. He has maximal great making properties. Evil is not a great making property.

Logically, any eternal being who has creative abilities would qualify as a God regardless of his nature.
Perfect Being Theology


According to Perfect Being Theology, we count a being as truly divine only if said being is maximally great. That is to say, this being possesses the greatest array of compossible great-making properties. The term “great-making properties” is generally used in the literature to signify those properties that it is intrinsically better to have than to not have. Perhaps Anselm had something like this in mind when he said of God that He is whatever it is better to be than to not be.
Perfect Being Theology | SUMMA PHILOSOPHIAE

There is a lot of thought that went into what God is. None of it involved asking Agnostic. Please read the article.


Craig is just plain stupid regarding that particular issue. Consider the following:

Perfect Being Theology | Reasonable Faith
Your just shredding your credibility to pieces when you question the military judgment of possibly history's greatest general, the greatest and most studied book ever written, and now the most feared by atheists philosopher on earth, who sits on several college boards. I do not mind disagreeing but calling your infinite superiors idiots leaves you with little credibility in any category.



If God is an evil God who is pretending to be a good God, how would you be able to know that?
Many of your cohorts seem to think they have all the information they need to KNOW God both does not exist and is absolutely evil. At the next atheists anonymous meeting you would do well to arrive a single unjustifiable position instead of two mutually exclusive ones. No significant philosophical definition of God or major theological conception of God allows for him to be evil. He is defined as good. If he is not he is not God. Whatever he morally is would be morally true, truth is good. This is also covered by divine command theory. What you think is evil if any type of God disagreed you would be wrong. Lets say you decide gambling is evil, yet God commanded us to gamble. You would be wrong and gambling good. God is not bound by your morals, you are bound by his. The same as parents are not bound by a child's morals, he is bound by theirs. In fact the moral perceptivity gap is infinitely greater.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Then why did he attack the island fortress?
I have listed the reasons several times. One of them at least 6 times. I can't repeat myself forever as you seem to be able to.



As I will show later in this post, Alexander achieved most of what you said during the year after he conquered Tyre, and he also conquered the island fortress of Tyre, which he considered to be very strategic, and a necessary prerequisite for pursuing Babylon, and Darius.
He did not. He initially intended to bypass it altogether. His attack was a reaction not an original plan. However either way the prophecy would still be correct so why are you debating this?


Arrian is the best ancient source on Alexander. He said:

Major Battles of Alexander's Asian Campaign



The article says:

"When the answer from Tyre was brought to Alexander, he sent the ambassadors back in a rage."

Then, Alexander addresses his military leaders, and discusses his strategic reasons for attacking the island fortress. Later, Arrian mentions a religious motive that Alexander had for attacking the island fortress.

Alexander obviously disagreed with you because he said that it would be a bad idea to pursue Babylon, and Darius, without first conquering the city of Tyre.

Alexander attacked Tyre in 332 B.C. The Battle of Gaugamela occurred in the next year, which was 331 B.C. Wikipedia says that the Battle of Gaugamela "was a decisive victory for the Hellenic League and led to the fall of the Persian Empire." Wikipedia also says that Alexander conquered Babylon in 331 B.C.

So Alexander's plans from 332 B.C. - 331 B.C. worked quite well regarding Tyre, Darius, and Babylon. Most people would trust his judgment regarding military matters far more than they would trust yours.
No one actually knows the exact reasons Alexander attacked Tyre but here is what we do know.

The Tyrian Insult


Alexander the Great sent an emissary to the city in an attempt to secure his wish to visit the temple. The Tyrians believed this was simply an excuse to enter the city and take it from the inside. Historians agree with this assertion. They declined his request and told him that he could use the temple that was located in the secondary part of the city on the main shore. Alexander was not interested in this temple and sent a second negotiation team to the city. These negotiators were beheaded and tossed from the city walls into the sea. This act led to Alexander's decision to lay siege to Tyre.
Alexander the Great and the Siege of Tyre - Military.Answers.com

This is my understanding from reading this stuff for years.

Sidon was the territorial power. Tyre was a vassal of theirs. Sidon had agreed to cooperate with Alexander. Alexander maybe to test their co-operation asked to visit the Temple on the island but had no intentions of attacking anything. He was refused. This made the agreement shaky and Alexander did not want to leave a hostile enemy in his rear. He again sent messengers to Tyre. They were killed and displayed on the wall. This caused Alexander to have to stop and take revenge because a conqueror can't not be denied and not retaliate. He sold it to his generals under a plan he had stated long ago but did not pertain to Tyre. Alexander planned to neutralize the Persian fleet by taking Persian ports and that is what your talking about. Tyre was not a Persian port but in order to convince his generals Alexander included it after the messengers were killed, in that general plan to take Persian ports. He did not set out to attack Tyre and thought his deal with Sidon guaranteed their non-interference. Even after he became suspicious he did not intend to attack. Only when his messengers were killed did he have to attack. However none of this has anything to do with the prophecy. Agency and result are all that matter, not the machinations.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Regarding item 1, I will not comment on it since nothing specific is mentioned.
I did not posts them there because I have already posted them and the link twice. You simply ignored them and have now forgotten them.

Regarding items 2, and 3, you cannot show that the odds against anyone defeating the island fortress within 500 years are so high that Ezekiel's prediction that it would be defeated was inspired by God. What is not common is not evidence of divine inspiration. The odds are astronomical that very unusual things will sometimes occur, and it would be impossible for them to never occur. Of course, when odds get high enough, they become a virtual certainty for all practical purposes, but you cannot reasonably prove that Ezekiel accurately predicting that someone would defeat the island settlement within 500 years beat astronomical odds.
The Tyrian's knowing full well what Alexander could do (he had just defeated an army 4 times his size at Issus) thought their fortress so impregnable as to defy and taunt him. Those in history who knew best thought their city was invulnerable, Alexander knew of it's impregnability and had to lobby hard to get any general to agree to attack it, he failed I think 3 times, and was going to give it up twice. There is no level at which God is the only explanation, but the level where Ezekiel could have made a dozen safe assumptions by natural means to details this astronomically improbable has long been over. Even the far less strong forts in the same area without being on islands are still there. At Acre the Christians many centuries later took years to starve it out because they could not defeat it and they were siege masters. It is absurd as predicting fort Hood will we demolished and obliterated today.

Nebuchadnezzar attacked Tyre in about 586 B.C. Five hundred years later would be 86 B.C. Do you have any historical evidence that the island looked like a bare rock by 86 B.C.? If by that date, the island fortress walls had been completely dismantled to make room for residential development, that would not have been odd, partly because the walls would have blocked much of the view of the water.
86Bc is not the issue. 332Bc is. That is when Alexander tore it apart. Every military account of the siege has Alexander dismantling the fortress. It was not swept clean as a bare floor (that was apocalyptic smack talking) but it was a pile of rubble on bare rock. That part of the island is today under the ocean.

There were a number of temples at the island fortress. Perhaps some of them had not been destroyed, or dismantled by 86 B.C. If that was the case, all of the island would not have looked like a bare rock.
This is what I mean by not having an argument. A well maybe this happened is not a counter point. It is a diversion. There exists no claim of any kind that I cannot invent a not0impossibel alternative to. This is simply more proof of bias. History is not determined based on what is not impossible but what the evidence suggests.

Regarding item 4, many of Ezekiel’s predictions came true, but none of them were divinely inspired. Nothing that he said about Nebuchadnezzar was unusual. Consider the following:

Nebuchadnezzar II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1790



That article says that Ezekiel wrote the prophecy in 586 B.C., and Wikipedia says that Nebuchadnezzar attacked Tyre in circa 586. If Nebuchadnezzar attacked Tyre in 586 B.C., on what exact date, or in what month, did his attacks begin? If Ezekiel wrote the prophecy in 586 B.C., on what exact date, or in what month did he write it?
In law a document is taken to be what it claims until evidence exists that is convincing it is other wise. Same with testimony.

Predictive prophecy stands as one of the most viable proofs of the Bible’s divine inspiration. Ezekiel’s prophecy concerning the city of Tyre provides an excellent example of such evidence.

Ezekiel’s prophetic message is one of the easiest to place in an accurate time frame. In verse 2 of the first chapter, the prophet noted that his visions and prophecies began “in the fifth year of King Johoiachin’s captivity.” The date for this captivity is virtually unanimously accepted as 597 B.C. during the second deportation of citizens from Judea to Babylon, which is documented in detail in 2 Kings 24:10-20. Furthermore, not only is the deportation recorded in the biblical account, but the ancient Chaldean records document it as well (Free and Vos, 1992, p. 194). Since Ezekiel’s visions began five years after the deportation, then a firm date of 592 B.C. can be established for the beginning of his prophecy. The prophet supplies other specific dates such as the seventh year (20:1), the ninth year (24:1), the eleventh year (26:1), and the latest date given as the twenty-seventh year (29:17) [Note: for an outline see Archer, 1974, pp. 368-369].

Due to the firmly established dating system that Ezekiel chose to use for his prophecy, the date of the prophecy regarding the city of Tyre, found in chapter 26, can be accurately established as the eleventh year after 597, which would be 586 B.C.
https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1790

Now since the date is firmly established let's pretend we have reason to believe it was written December 31'st at 11:59pm and Ezekiel lied. That would only make known the city Nebuchadnezzar attacked and would not explain another single detail and probably would not explain that one either. Your doing the same thing again. You showing it is not impossible that Ezekiel could have known about one detail in over a dozen so we can condemn them all. This is not an argument, it is pure bias.

There is no way that you can reasonably prove that the odds against Ezekiel learning about Nebuchadnezzar’s plans to attack the mainland settlement are so high that God must have told him about Nebuchadnezzar’s plans. For all we know, Nebuchadnezzar had planned to attack the mainland settlement years before he attacked it, and by the time that he did attack it, many people in, and outside of Babylon knew about it.
What exactly is reasonable proof? If you can't define it to an exactness I can't know if I met it, since your simply making it up. Error loves ambiguity and the dark. Truth loves clarity and light. I will not address anymore reasonable proof criteria until you define it specifically.

Once that Ezekiel, or anyone else, had heard about Nebuchadnezzar’s plans to attack the mainland settlement, surely many people expected him to severely damage it.
For the fourth or fifth time I have never used the damage Nebuchadnezzar did to the mainland as evidence of the prophetic.


Now that is utterly absurd even for you. It is not surprising that Nebuchadnezzar wanted to attack the mainland settlement. Your commander argument is irrelevant since when Nebuchadnezzar decided to attack the mainland settlement, his commanders had to do what he told them to do.

An article at http://www.ancient.eu.com/Nebuchadnezzar_II/ says:



Anyone who has just a modest amount of common sense knows that it would have been surprising if a powerful king like Nebuchadnezzar had not severely damaged the mainland settlement.

Please reply to my posts 154, 156, 162, 176, 177, 178, and 179.
That is ridiculous.

1. I have not used the level of damage as a proof of the supernatural.
2. It is however improbable.
3. Commanders as is plainly obvious want to be as efficient as possible.
4. Why spend a decade trashing a meaningless town?
5. Why lose men tearing down houses and walls?

This does occur but unique conditions cause it.
1. The enemy is using the structures for cover. (See Cortez, Vietnam, etc...)
2. The enemy had made the commander so mad he is exacting vengeance.
3. He is a conqueror like Rome was who because of practicality severely punished resistance but was lenient on those who surrendered.


It is not part of my argument but it is highly unusual to spend a decade tearing down a meaningless city and having none of the above conditions mandating it. The most powerful army ever assembled took the fourth largest army and it's capital in weeks and had more firepower in one division that Alexander, Caesar, Nebuchadnezzar, and the Mongols combined and yet Bagdad is still intact and functioning. We exploded more energy in Nagasaki and Hiroshima that has ever been expended per mile in all of history yet those cities were not completely destroyed and have been rebuilt. That is the norm what occurred at Tyre is very abnormal. Of all the hundreds of cities Rome sacked in it's most tyrannical periods very very few were obliterated and they were 100 times as efficient with siege's as even Alexander.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Although it is plausible that someone other than Alexander would have defeated the island fortress with 500 years, there is no need to limit the time frame to 500 years.

In the KJV, Ezekiel 26:9 says:

“And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.”

The NIV translates the verse as:

“He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons.”
Have you seen any battering rams or axes on CNN lately. Axes went out before Christ and battering rams with the crusades.

The NASB translates the verse as:

“The blow of his battering rams he will direct against your walls, and with his [f]axes he will break down your towers.”

The footnote says “Lit swords,” which I think means “literally swords.”

I do not think that “axes” is the best word to use to translate whatever the Hebrew says.

Do you have any evidence that Alexander’s forces used axes against the towers of the island fortress? Many ancient towers were made of stone, not wood. If the island fortress had towers, they might have been made of stone, not wood. I assume that axes would not be used against stone towers.

Alexander used battering rams to breach the walls of the fortress, and he did some lesser damage to the walls with siege machines. Siege machines, and battering rams were used in the siege of Constantinople in 717-718 A.D., and in the Crusades after 1,000 A.D. Siege machines, and battering rams improved after Alexander’s time, but they still used the same basic principles, and those principles did not change until cannons were used after 1200 A.D.
Let's just see what the interpretation should be. The verse in English is:

Eze 26:9

And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

The Hebrew word translated as axe is: chereb

It literally means:

I. sword, knife

A. sword


B. knife


C. tools for cutting stone

So you guessing at siege engines is out.


Siege engines failed at Constantinople to breech anything. They literally could not make them work. It was only when one of the first artillery pieces was brought in that a breech was made. It was a huge gun and there exists pictures of it if you search.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Message to 1robin: When Nebuchadnezzar left Babylon for Tyre, if Ezekiel was a slave in Babylon at that time, I assume that when Nebuchadnezzar left, many, if not most people in Babylon knew that he was going to Tyre.
You have mentioned this about 10 times. It is possible, it is not likely. Even being in the Navy during both Gulf wars I did not know the specific destination of any ship except mine and only knew that right before we arrived.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
I said everyone would either be killed or enslaved.

But that is not what Ezekiel said. He said that an unspecified number of people would be killed, he did not mention slavery at all, he did not say who would kill the people, and he did not limit the time frame to 500 years as you claimed.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Agnostic75 said:
Message to 1robin: When Nebuchadnezzar left Babylon for Tyre, if Ezekiel was a slave in Babylon at that time, I assume that when Nebuchadnezzar left, many, if not most people in Babylon knew that he was going to Tyre.

1robin said:
You have mentioned this about 10 times. It is possible, it is not likely. Even being in the Navy during both Gulf wars I did not know the specific destination of any ship except mine and only knew that right before we arrived.

Every case is different. Everyone knows that. If Ezekiel was in Babylon when Nebuchadnezzar left for Tyre, no one living today could possibly adequately estimate the odds that he, or anyone else knew where Nebuchadnezzar was going. It might have been common knowledge that he was going to Tyre. Ezekiel might have been popular among some of the military commanders who told him about that attacks. Some residents of Babylon might have overheard some of the commanders discussing the plans, and gossip spread the news. There are many other possibilities.

There are not any good reasons why some Babylonians would not have told Ezekiel that Nebuchadnezzar was going to Tyre. Ezekiel, and other Hebrews, hated Tyre, and were jealous of it, so Ezekiel being told about it would not have been a threat to Nebuchadnezzar since Ezekiel wanted him to defeat the mainland settlement.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Agnostic75 said:
Ezekiel had no idea that Alexander would ever be born, let alone build a causeway to the island, which turned out to be a bad idea since the siege machines that he put there were not able to breach the walls, and it took ships to do that. All of the historical sources that I checked at the Internet show that the walls were breached from ships, not from the causeway.

1robin said:
Good grief so now your criticizing one of histories greatest military geniuses. Let me fix that first. The causeway was a necessity. At that time you could never get enough people into a boat to subdue a fortress that strong even if you knocked a whole in it. The ships only spread out the force and required guarding all walls at the same time. Most of the men entered through the siege tower. In fact it is said if Alexander had not leapt from the siege tower onto the wall the attack would have failed. The causeway was extremely difficult to create but was a necessity and even if it wasn't obvious you are far less convincing than the man who took over 4/5ths of the known world and was there. He defeated armies that outnumbered his ten to one.

I refer you to my post 162. I quoted three sources that say that Alexander's siege machines on the causeway did very little damage to the fortress, and that Alexander had to use naval forces to breach the walls. Alexander was on a ship when the walls were breached from ships.

Please quote your sources that say that Alexander's forces breached the walls from the causeway.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
The causeway is reflected in their throwing the rubble in the water. What are you going to bother throwing tons of material in the water if not for a causeway?

The rubble refers only to the island fortress. If rubble from the island fortress had been thrown into the sea, that would have agreed with part of the prophecy.

Agnostic75 said:
Exodus 15:4 says "Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea." Mark 9:42 says "And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea." Luke 17:2 says "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

1robin said:
That is not about Tyre.

But those Scriptures are sufficient to show that if the rubble from the island fortress had been thrown into the sea, that would have agreed with part of the prophecy.

Agnostic75 said:
Please note that nothing subsequent to those events was mentioned since just being cast into the sea was sufficient to reap disgrace on the enemy. Similarly, if the remains of the island fortress had been cast into the sea, and nothing else happened, that would have been sufficient to reap disgrace on the enemy. A causeway being built to the island was not necessary in order for the walls of the fortress to be cast into the sea, and in fact, the causeway had little or nothing to do with parts of the walls falling into the sea since ships did most of the damage to the fortress.

1robin said:
God is not bound by precedent. The mechanism he uses on day is not mandated for the next event. That is a weird argument. Since the causeway was not in the prophecy it is irrelevant. Two things.......are related. The rubble being thrown into the sea and the walls all being dismantled. Both are very improbable yet both happened. That is all that matters, God is not bound by your estimates of efficiency. I can only give your originality points.

You cannot reasonably prove that Ezekiel was not referring only to the island fortress.

In my post 154, I provided reasonable evidence that verse 12, which mentions the rubble, refers only to the island fortress.

In my post 156, I provided reasonable evidence that only verses 6-11 refer to the mainland settlement, and only to Nebuchadnezzar.

In my post 181, I quoted Christian apologist James Holding as saying:

James Holding said:
Verses 3-5 and 12-14 are "I/they" verses -- and form a minor chiastic structure around the central core of verses describing Nebuchadnezzar's actions alone. The linguistic pattern of this passage indicates that the "they" of v. 12 are the nations of v. 4. Not only is the pronoun ("they") the same, but in addition, only in these verses is Adonai YHWH the sole leader, and two unique actions -- net spreading, scraping -- are the same as those ascribed to the nations in 3-5.

Slaying of the enemy is ascribed throughout the oracle, as would be expected of a common element of war.

Bottom line: "they" in v. 12 does not refer to Nebuchadnezzar and his army.......

1robin said:
They is the meat of the issue.......It uses pluralities in every case where more than Nebuchadnezzar was needed to accomplish what it stated. It uses the singular in every single case where only what Nebuchadnezzar accomplished what was mentioned.

I agree, and that it the basis that I used for my posts 154, and 156.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Agnostic75 said:
On the contrary, the website only quoted Arrian, and does not have any commentary at all. As most ancient historians know, Arrian is widely acknowledged by scholars as one of the best ancient sources on Alexander, and some scholars say that he is the best ancient source on Alexander.

1robin said:
He is widely known to have written what he thought Alexander wanted to hear.

That is quite interesting since Arrian was born over 350 years after Alexander died.

Please quote your sources.

1robin said:
He even went well beyond even that.

Please quote your sources.

I have read a number of sources that say that Arrian is the best ancient source on Alexander. Consider the following that I posted previously:

Wikipedia said:
Arrian of Nicomedia, c. AD 86 – c.160, was a Roman historian, public servant, military commander and philosopher of the 2nd-century Roman period.

The Anabasis of Alexander is perhaps his best-known work, and is generally considered one of the best sources on the campaigns of Alexander the Great.

Wikipedia said:
Anabasis Alexandri (Greek: Ἀλεξάνδρου ἀνάβασις Alexándrou anábasis), the Campaigns of Alexander by Arrian, is the most important source on Alexander the Great. The Greek term anabasis referred to an expedition from a coastline into the interior of a country. The term katabasis referred to a trip from the interior to the coast. So a more literal translation would be The Expedition of Alexander.

Arrian Campaigns of Alexander (Anabasis) Summary

Michael McGoodwin said:
Arrian: Campaigns of Alexander (Anabasis)
Summary by Michael McGoodwin, prepared 2002

Arrian does not attempt to analyze why Alexander did what he did, nor does he provide much character study or the antecedents of the war. His model was Xenophon's Anabasis. He intended this work to be his masterpiece, believing Alexander to be a splendid subject who had not been adequately represented theretofore. He wanted to write a factual account free of mythology and romance. His main sources were Ptolemy I son of Lagus (future king of Egypt, writings are non-extant) and Aristobulus (Greek engineer, non-extant), both of whom were commanders who accompanied Alexander. However, he also said he drew on, or is thought to have drawn on, the Ephemerides (diaries of the campaigns mostly by Eumenes--non-extant), Alexander's own correspondence, Callisthenes (non-extant, draws on Homeric myth), Trogus, Nearchus (commanded Alexander's fleet from the Indus River to the Persian Gulf, published 310, non-extant), Cleitarchus (non-extant, exhibits a penchant for sensational, fabulous, and romantic), Chares (non-extant, chamberlain who wrote of court life), Ephippos (who wrote of Alexander's drinking), Diodorus (extant history written 1st C BCE), Justin (wrote 3rd C AD), Quintus Curtius Rufus (wrote 1st C CE, sensational and emotive style), Plutarch (Life of Alexander 2nd C CE, interested in character, thus a good companion to Arrian, a good miscellanist), Diodorus, and others. He was also influenced by Xenophon's Anabasis and Theopompus (376-c. 320, wrote Philippica).

1robin said:
In one case Alexander threw his entire manuscript in the sea saying no one would believe that.

Please quote your sources.

If Alexander threw his entire manuscript in the sea, someone else must have recorded what allegedly happened since Arrian discusses what allegedly happened.

1robin said:
However what is it he wrote that I disagreed with? It may not be an issue.

I first mentioned Arrian in my post 158. In part of that post, I said:

Agnostic75 said:
Alexander the Great - Siege of Tyre

Quote:

"Alexander easily persuaded his men to make an attack on Tyre. An omen helped to convince him, because that very night during a dream he seemed to be approaching the walls of Tyre, and Heracles was stretching out his right hand towards him and leading him to the city. Aristander explained that this meant that Tyre would be captured with great effort, just as the labours of Heracles also demanded great effort. Certainly the siege of Tyre was a considerable undertaking."

You replied:

1robin said:
That site must be run by idiots.

I replied:

Agnostic75 said:
On the contrary, the website only quoted Arrian, and does not have any commentary at all. As most ancient historians know, Arrian is widely acknowledged by scholars as one of the best ancient sources on Alexander, and some scholars say that he is the best ancient source on Alexander.

When you made your absurd, and unfair comment, I assume that you did not even go to the link since if you had gone there, you would have known that no commentary was given, and that all that they did was quote Arrian. You did not even know where the quote originally came from, which was Arrian, but yet you said that the site must be run by idiots.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Agnostic75 said:
So there is good reason to believe that Alexander had the religious motive that Arrian mentioned for attacking the island fortress, not just strategic motives. Arrian also mentioned some strategic motives.

1robin said:
I don't think there was much of a strategic motive at all. He originally intended to bypass it all together. Only when his messengers were killed did he decide to attack, and only when his camp was raided did he decide on annihilation. There may be some theological reasons as well, I don't know, but they are not important. Method is not important. Only prediction and result are for prophetic claims.

If Alexander had a religious motives among other motives, that is obviously important since it was one of the motives.

Alexander could not possibly have intended to bypass Tyre altogether since he stopped there some time before his messengers were hung, and it was not likely that he stopped there primarily to worship at a temple at the island settlement, if at all.

Consider the following:

http://www.ancient.eu.com/article/107/

Ancient History Encyclopedia said:
After defeating Darius III at the battle of Issus in November 333 BC, Alexander marched his army (about 35,000-40,000 strong) into Phoenicia, where he received the capitulation of Byblus and Sidon. Tyrian envoys met with Alexander whilst he was on the march, declaring their intent to honour his wishes.

Alexander's request was simple: he wished to sacrifice to Heracles in Tyre. (The Phoenician God Melqart was roughly the equivalent of the Greek Heracles.) The Tyrian's recognised this as a Macedonian ploy to occupy the city and refused, saying instead that Alexander was welcome to sacrifice to Heracles in old Tyre, which was built upon the mainland. Old Tyre held no strategic importance - it was undefended and the Tyrian navy was stationed in the harbours of new Tyre.

The Tyrian refusal to capitulate to Alexander's wishes was tantamount to a declaration of war. But, despite the youthful Alexander's growing reputation, the Tyrians had every reason to be confident. In addition to a powerful navy and mercenary army, their city lay roughly half a mile (0.8 km) offshore, and, according to the account of the historian Arrian, the walls facing the landward side towered to an impressive 150 ft (46m) in height. Whether they actually stood that high is doubtful and open to debate, but even so, the defences of Tyre were formidable and had withstood a number of mighty sieges in the past. The Tyrians began their preparations and evacuated most of the women and children to their colony at Carthage, leaving behind perhaps 40,000 people. Carthage also promised to send more ships and soldiers.

Alexander was aware of Tyre's supposed impregnability and convened a council of war, explaining to his generals the vital importance of securing all Phoenician cities before advancing on Egypt. Tyre was a stronghold for the Persian fleet and could not be left behind to threaten Alexander's rear. In a last-ditch attempt to prevent a long and exhaustive siege, he despatched heralds to Tyre demanding their surrender, but the Macedonian's were executed and their bodies hurled into the sea.

Please note that Alexander did have some strategic motives for attacking the island fortress, and that he demanded that the Tyrians surrender before they hung his messengers. That means that Alexander would probably have attacked the island fortress even if the Tyrians had not hung his messengers.

Consider the following from my post 179:

1robin said:
.......he was after Babylon. If he captured it, and killed Darius he would instantly own all the cities in 4/5ths of the known world.

Agnostic75 said:
Alexander achieved most of what you said during the year after he conquered Tyre, and he also conquered the island fortress of Tyre, which he considered to be very strategic, and a necessary prerequisite for pursuing Babylon, and Darius.

Arrian is the best ancient source on Alexander. He said:

Major Battles of Alexander's Asian Campaign

Arrian said:
He commended both the city and its ambassadors, and ordered them to return and tell the Tyrians that he wished to enter their city and offer sacrifice to Heracles.

The reason of this demand was, that in Tyre there existed a temple of Heracles, the most ancient of all those which are mentioned in history.......
To this Tyrian Heracles, Alexander said he wished to offer sacrifice. But when this message was brought to Tyre by the ambassadors, the people passed a decree to obey any other command of Alexander, but not to admit into the city any Persian or Macedonian; thinking that under the existing circumstances, this was the most specious answer, and that it would be the safest course for them to pursue in reference to the issue of the war, which was still uncertain. When the answer from Tyre was brought to Alexander, he sent the ambassadors back in a rage. He then summoned a council of his Companions and the leaders of his army, together with the captains of infantry and cavalry, and spoke as follows:

"Friends and allies, I see that an expedition to Egypt will not be safe for us, so long as the Persians retain the sovereignty of the sea; nor is it a safe course, both for other reasons, and especially looking at the state of matters in Greece, for us to pursue Darius, leaving in our rear the city of Tyre itself in doubtful allegiance, and Egypt and Cyprus in the occupation of the Persians. I am apprehensive lest while we advance with our forces towards Babylon and in pursuit of Darius, the Persians should again conquer the maritime districts, and transfer the war into Greece with a larger army, considering that the Lacedaemonians are now waging war against us without disguise, and the city of Athens is restrained for the present rather by fear than by any good-will towards us. But if Tyre were captured, the whole of Phoenicia would be in our possession, and the fleet of the Phoenicians, which is the most numerous and the best in the Persian navy, would in all probability come over to us. For the Phoenician sailors and marines will not dare to put to sea in order to incur danger on behalf of others, when their own cities are occupied by us. After this, Cyprus will either yield to us without delay, or will be captured with ease at the mere arrival of a naval force; and then navigating the sea with the ships from Macedonia in conjunction with those of the Phoenicians, Cyprus also having come over to us, we shall acquire the absolute sovereignty of the sea, and at the same time an expedition into Egypt will become an easy matter for us. After we have brought Egypt into subjection, no anxiety about Greece and our own land will any longer remain, and we shall be able to undertake the expedition to Babylon with safety in regard to affairs at home, and at the same time with greater reputation, in consequence of having appropriated to ourselves all the maritime provinces of the Persians and all the land this side of the Euphrates."

By this speech he easily persuaded his officers to make an attempt upon Tyre. Moreover he was encouraged by a divine admonition, for that very night in his sleep he seemed to be approaching the Tyrian walls, and Heracles seemed to take him by the right hand and lead him up into the city.

So Arrian said that Alexander did have some strategic motives for attacking the island fortress, and a religious motive.

I also said:

Agnostic75 said:
Alexander obviously disagreed with you because he said that it would be a bad idea to pursue Babylon, and Darius, without first conquering the city of Tyre.

Alexander attacked Tyre in 332 B.C. The Battle of Gaugamela occurred in the next year, which was 331 B.C. Wikipedia says that the Battle of Gaugamela "was a decisive victory for the Hellenic League and led to the fall of the Persian Empire." Wikipedia also says that Alexander conquered Babylon in 331 B.C.

So Alexander's plans from 332 B.C. - 331 B.C. worked quite well regarding Tyre, Darius, and Babylon. Most people would trust his judgment regarding military matters far more than they would trust yours.

Please note the following by Arrian:

"When the answer from Tyre was brought to Alexander, he sent the ambassadors back in a rage."

That shows that Alexander was very angry before the Tyrians hung his messengers.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
No one actually knows the exact reasons Alexander attacked Tyre but here is what we do know.

But you have claimed that Alexander attacked Tyre because the Tyrians hung his messengers.

1robin said:
The Tyrian Insult

Alexander the Great sent an emissary to the city in an attempt to secure his wish to visit the temple. The Tyrians believed this was simply an excuse to enter the city and take it from the inside. Historians agree with this assertion.

That agrees with my arguments since it implies that Alexander had some strategic motives for attacking the island fortress before the Tyrians hung his messengers.

1robin said:
They declined his request and told him that he could use the temple that was located in the secondary part of the city on the main shore. Alexander was not interested in this temple and sent a second negotiation team to the city. These negotiators were beheaded and tossed from the city walls into the sea. This act led to Alexander's decision to lay siege to Tyre.

Alexander the Great and the Siege of Tyre - Military.Answers.com

But the article left out the very important part where Alexander was already very angry with the Tyrians before they hung his messengers. That was because 1) Alexander believed that the island fortress was strategically important, 2) Alexander was angry because he wanted to worship at a temple in the city, or 3) both. Item 1 is the most logical choice.

It is interesting that you quoted militaryanswers.com at http://military.answers.com/war/alexander-the-great-and-the-siege-of-tyre since I quoted the same article as follows:

http://military.answers.com/war/alexander-the-great-and-the-siege-of-tyre

militaryanswers.com said:
The island city of Tyre was completely surrounded by stone walls that were 100 to 200 feet high. Since Alexander did not have a large enough naval force to take either the north or south ports and access the city through that route, he decided to build a causeway from the mainland to the city and march on it that way. The causeway was built of stone and easily constructed for almost two thirds of the distance to the island. There the sea shelf dropped off and made continuing the 200 feet wide causeway much more difficult. At this time the causeway workers were also within range of Tyre's wall defenses, which further slowed progress. Alexander ordered the building of two siege towers and had them placed at the end of the causeway to directly attack the walls of Tyre. This worked for a few days until the Tyrian navy sent a ship full of oil and pitch directly at the towers and crashed the burning vessel into them, completely destroying the towers.

The defeat of his siege towers meant that Alexander would not be able to take the city without a substantial navy. Alexander's recent concurring of the Persians was just the boon he needed. When the Persian military ships returned to their home cities, they found them under Greek control and immediately moved to support Alexander. In addition, 120 ships arrived from Cyprus that wished to join his fleet. Alexander now had a fleet of over 220 ships under his control, which was enough to take the city. He immediately formed a blockade at both ports and stopped the city from receiving supplies/

Alexander decided to take ram ships and attack the southern wall of the city. This tactic was slowed by several huge boulders that had been strategically placed to prevent just such an attack. The boulders were removed with crane ships, and the siege on the south wall continued. Eventually the rams made a small breach in the southern wall, and Alexander's troops flowed into the city. The battle was short, and Tyre's troops were quickly toppled.

Please note:

"The defeat of his siege towers [on the causeway] meant that Alexander would not be able to take the city without a substantial navy."

"Alexander decided to take ram ships and attack the southern wall of the city.......Eventually the rams made a small breach in the southern wall, and Alexander's troops flowed into the city. The battle was short, and Tyre's troops were quickly toppled."

Thank you for mentioning an article that agrees with me that Alexander's siege machines on the causeway did not breach the walls of the fortress.

1robin said:
This is my understanding from reading this stuff for years.

For years, and yet you apparently had never heard of Arrian before I mentioned him, and you apparently never knew that Alexander had a religious motive for attacking the island fortress until I mentioned it.

1robin said:
Sidon was the territorial power. Tyre was a vassal of theirs. Sidon had agreed to cooperate with Alexander. Alexander maybe to test their co-operation, asked to visit the Temple on the island but had no intentions of attacking anything.

Alexander certainly did intend to attack the island fortress since I provided sources that show that he was furious with the Tyrians before they hung his messengers. That was obviously for strategic reasons, and later he had a vision, which was a religious reason.

1robin said:
He was refused. This made the agreement shaky and Alexander did not want to leave a hostile enemy in his rear.

That is true, but Alexander suspected that Tyre might be a hostile enemy before he got there. Wikipedia says:

"The Siege of Tyre occurred in 332 BC when Alexander set out to conquer Tyre, a strategic coastal base. Tyre was the site of the only remaining Persian port that did not capitulate to Alexander. Even by this point in the war, the Persian navy still posed a major threat to Alexander."

In addition, I have previously quoted Arrian, and the Ancient History Encyclopedia that both say that Alexander had some strategic motives for attacking the island fortress.

1robin said:
He again sent messengers to Tyre. They were killed and displayed on the wall. This caused Alexander to have to stop and take revenge because a conqueror can't not be denied and not retaliate. He sold it to his generals under a plan he had stated long ago but did not pertain to Tyre.

On the contrary, Arrian says that Alexander sold his generals his plan to attack the island fortress after the Tyrians refused to allow him to enter the city, not long ago.

1robin said:
Alexander planned to neutralize the Persian fleet by taking Persian ports and that is what your talking about. Tyre was not a Persian port but in order to convince his generals Alexander included it after the messengers were killed, in that general plan to take Persian ports.

No, Tyre claimed to be neutral, but Alexander could not have been reasonably certain that that was the truth.

1robin said:
However none of this has anything to do with the prophecy. Agency and result are all that matter, not the machinations.

You said that Alexander was not interested in minor cities. I merely replied to what you said.

About five months ago, in your post 27, you said:

1robin said:
There is currently no Phoenician anything. The civilization has been completely eradicated as a distinct culture. However that was above and beyond what was predicted. The Phoenicians in Tyre were from Carthage. Carthage ruled the seas and had a huge empire. They were rich and powerful. Tyre was a world class, extremely wealthy, virtually impregnable island fortress. They angered God with comments about Israel. He then stated that one of the strongest and wealthiest fortresses would be wiped off the face of the earth, to the bedrock. Not only that but the Phoenicians would never rebuild it. I might as well predict fort Hood will be scraped from it's foundations, and never rebuilt, and it occur in a few centuries. Tyre was so strong Alexander several times almost gave it up. He was a siege master with some of the largest siege equipment ever built. He failed, failed, and failed again. He finally had to capture a Navy, get another navy from Macedonia, hire more ships, equip them with the first known water born siege devices and it still took a while. In fact he would have quit except for one thing. The Phoenicians hung his messengers from the walls. That is also the only thing that made Alexander perform the extreme and complete destruction predicted. He had no intention of doing what Ezekiel said until that freak event occurred. Even more remarkable it meant that Phoenicia could not rebuild it again. In fact from that point the entire Carthaginian empire began to disappear. Go ahead and do that for any city today. I will give you ten chances and you will fail.

So it was you who first brought up the issue of the messengers, and now you say that it doesn't matter.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
1robin said:
Have you seen any battering rams or axes on CNN lately. Axes went out before Christ and battering rams with the crusades.

Do you have any evidence that Alexander used axes to attack the towers of the island fortress? As I told you, some ancient towers were made of stone, not wood, and that if the island fortress had stone towers, it was not likely that axes would have been used against stone towers. I saw an artist's rendering of the island fortress at the Internet, and the towers were apparently made of stone.

1robin said:
Even the Romans stopped using axes to break down towers long before that.

If Ezekiel predicted that axes would be used to attack the towers of the island fortress, and they were not used by Alexander, his prediction was false. Even if the island fortress had wooden towers, if someone other than Alexander attacked the island fortress 500 years later, by that time, the towers might have been replaced with stone towers.

1robin said:
Let's just see what the interpretation should be. The verse in English is:

Eze 26:9

And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers.

The Hebrew word translated as axe is: chereb

It literally means:

I. sword, knife

A. sword

B. knife

C. tools for cutting stone

Swords were still used in wars in 1,000 A.D. Knives are still used in wars today.

1robin said:
So you guessing at siege engines is out.

Siege engines failed at Constantinople to breech anything. They literally could not make them work. It was only when one of the first artillery pieces was brought in that a breech was made. It was a huge gun and there exists pictures of it if you search.

Now really, in one of my previous posts, I said:

Agnostic75 said:
Siege machines, and battering rams were used in the siege of Constantinople in 717-718 A.D., and in the Crusades after 1,000 A.D. Siege machines, and battering rams improved after Alexander’s time, but they still used the same basic principles, and those principles did not change until cannons were used after 1200 A.D.

So how could cannons have been an issue in 717-718 A.D. when they were not used in warfare in the Middle East until after 1200 A.D.?

As a Wikipedia article at List of sieges of Constantinople - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia shows, there were many sieges of Constantinople.

Siege machines, and battering rams were still in use in 750 A.D., and for hundreds of years after that. They improved after Alexander's time, but they still used the same basic principles, and the principles did not change until the invention of cannons. You cannot provide reasonable evidence that the odds against a party other than Alexander destroying the island fortress by say 750 A.D. are so high that God must have inspired Ezekiel to predict that Tyre would be destroyed, and would never be rebuilt.

All that we are basically discussing is one fortress on a small island since 1) the mainland settlement was far easier to defeat than the island fortress was, so it was a given that many parties could have eventually defeated it, 2) the mainland settlement was partly rebuilt after Nebuchadnezzar left Tyre, and flourished for centuries, 3) the word "rock" is used in verses 4, and 14, and in both cases, the verses refer only to the island fortress, and 4) there is not any credible historical evidence that the mainland settlement ever looked like a bare rock.

You tried to limit the time frame to 500 years. Do you have any evidence that 500 years later, the island fortress looked like a bare rock?
 
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