The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.

[McBell]

Done what? Named them already, or agreed there are none?

You asked:

Can anyone here name any Founding Fathers who were not Christian?
​

I was merely stating that it has already been done numerous times in this thread alone.


Don't believe me?
See post #219

 

[Starfish]

Okay, this thread, pg. 11, posts 107-109, show that Jefferson and Adams were indeed Christian. The very definition of being Christian is a belief in the divinity of Christ.

On to Franklin, and Paine . . .

 

[Starfish]

In 1790, just about a month before he died, Franklin wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion:“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble....[3]”
Like most Enlightenment intellectuals, Franklin separated virtue, morality, and faith from organized religion, although he felt that if religion in general grew weaker, morality, virtue, and society in general would also decline. Thus he wrote Thomas Paine, "If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it." According to David Morgan,[32] Franklin was a proponent of all religions. He prayed to "Powerful Goodness" and referred to God as the "INFINITE. (Source Wikipedia)

At that time in history, I would have probably been a Deist.

 

[lilithu]

Okay, this thread, pg. 11, posts 107-109, show that Jefferson and Adams were indeed Christian. The very definition of being Christian is a belief in the divinity of Christ.

Jefferson and Adams did NOT believe in the divinity of Christ. No where in the quotes you posted did either say they believe in the divinity of Christ. They were Unitarian. U-N-I-T-A-R-I-A-N. That means, NOT Trinitarian. And no, I don't mean like the Mormons believe - 3 separate persons, one Godhead - I mean there is only one, uno, in the Godhead. UNITARIAN.

 

[lilithu]

In 1790, just about a month before he died, Franklin wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion:“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble....[3]”
Like most Enlightenment intellectuals, Franklin separated virtue, morality, and faith from organized religion, although he felt that if religion in general grew weaker, morality, virtue, and society in general would also decline. Thus he wrote Thomas Paine, "If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it." According to David Morgan,[32] Franklin was a proponent of all religions. He prayed to "Powerful Goodness" and referred to God as the "INFINITE. (Source Wikipedia)

ie - Franklin did not believe in the divinity of Christ.

 

[Starfish]

Jefferson and Adams did NOT believe in the divinity of Christ. No where in the quotes you posted did either say they believe in the divinity of Christ. They were Unitarian. U-N-I-T-A-R-I-A-N. That means, NOT Trinitarian. And no, I don't mean like the Mormons believe - 3 separate persons, one Godhead - I mean there is only one, uno, in the Godhead. UNITARIAN.

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson

Note: Jesus taught of his own divinity.

"Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men… The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart"
John Adams
Was the definition of Christian different then? Maybe. I think Christianity has always been the belief in the divinity of Christ.

 

[Sententia]

In 1790, just about a month before he died, Franklin wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion:“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble....[3]”
Like most Enlightenment intellectuals, Franklin separated virtue, morality, and faith from organized religion, although he felt that if religion in general grew weaker, morality, virtue, and society in general would also decline. Thus he wrote Thomas Paine, "If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it." According to David Morgan,[32] Franklin was a proponent of all religions. He prayed to "Powerful Goodness" and referred to God as the "INFINITE. (Source Wikipedia)

At that time in history, I would have probably been a Deist.

Video Clip: http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?video_id=ZWy602JbSUU
Herald Tibune: The U.S. is not a 'Christian nation' - International Herald Tribune
Ny Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/07/opinion/07meacham.html

 

[Starfish]

ie - Franklin did not believe in the divinity of Christ.

I don't disagree. I just posted his quote.

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes"

Interesting from an LDS point of view. But that's a different thread.

 

[lilithu]

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus....I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." Thomas Jefferson

Note: Jesus taught of his own divinity.

That is a matter of debate. What is not up for debate is whether Jefferson believed that Jesus was God. He did not. Jefferson described Jesus as:

"a man, of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, (and an) enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions of divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition by being gibbeted according to the Roman law."

Or if that isn't convincing enough, there's this:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Jefferson had the utmost respect for Jesus as a human teacher and reformer. That's how I see Jesus too. And surprise, surprise, I'm a Unitarian.

"Jesus is benevolence personified, an example for all men… The Christian religion, in its primitive purity and simplicity, I have entertained for more than sixty years. It is the religion of reason, equity, and love; it is the religion of the head and the heart"
John Adams
Was the definition of Christian different then? Maybe. I think Christianity has always been the belief in the divinity of Christ.

When the Unitarians broke from the Congregationalists, they still considered themselves Christian, even tho they rejected the divinity of Christ. There are Unitarians in Europe right now who consider themselves Christian even tho they reject the divinity of Christ. You can argue with them about whether or not they are actually Christian. But the fact remains there were and are people who calls themselves Christian who reject the divinity of Christ. Adams was one of them.

Actually, I don't really care if you claim that both Adams and Jefferson were Christian, because they've made that claim themselves at times. But what you cannot do is say they believed that Jesus is God. They did not.

 

[Kcnorwood]

In 1790, just about a month before he died, Franklin wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion:“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble....[3]”
Like most Enlightenment intellectuals, Franklin separated virtue, morality, and faith from organized religion, although he felt that if religion in general grew weaker, morality, virtue, and society in general would also decline. Thus he wrote Thomas Paine, "If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it." According to David Morgan,[32] Franklin was a proponent of all religions. He prayed to "Powerful Goodness" and referred to God as the "INFINITE. (Source Wikipedia)

At that time in history, I would have probably been a Deist.

Sorry Wikipedia is not a good source when anyone can edit it...

 

[Starfish]

That is a matter of debate. What is not up for debate is whether Jefferson believed that Jesus was God. He did not. Jefferson described Jesus as:

"a man, of illegitimate birth, of a benevolent heart, (and an) enthusiastic mind, who set out without pretensions of divinity, ended in believing them, and was punished capitally for sedition by being gibbeted according to the Roman law."

Or if that isn't convincing enough, there's this:

"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors." –Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Jefferson had the utmost respect for Jesus as a human teacher and reformer. That's how I see Jesus too. And surprise, surprise, I'm a Unitarian.


When the Unitarians broke from the Congregationalists, they still considered themselves Christian, even tho they rejected the divinity of Christ. There are Unitarians in Europe right now who consider themselves Christian even tho they reject the divinity of Christ. You can argue with them about whether or not they are actually Christian. But the fact remains there were and are people who calls themselves Christian who reject the divinity of Christ. Adams was one of them.

Actually, I don't really care if you claim that both Adams and Jefferson were Christian, because they've made that claim themselves at times. But what you cannot do is say they believed that Jesus is God. They did not.

I'm willing to agree that they called themselves Christians regardless of the divinity issue. That's enough for this thread, IMO.

 

[Sententia]

I'm willing to agree that they called themselves Christians regardless of the divinity issue. That's enough for this thread, IMO.

Yet being christians they sought to create a country that was more then just christian. A place where freedom meant freedom for everyone and not just the christians.

Tolerance and respect for all religious and no religion shall every rule the governement or vice versa.

Wise men.

 

[Draka]

I'm willing to agree that they called themselves Christians regardless of the divinity issue. That's enough for this thread, IMO.

I could call myself a Christian and start up my own forum...would that make it a Christian forum...nope...not at all. They could call themselves Trampolinists, doesn't mean that the basis of a country would have anything to do with trampolines now would it?

 

[logician]

They didn't call themselves Christians period.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Unfortunately, in the U.S. Congress, if you dare mention you don't believe in god, they'd probably haul you away in a paddy wagon. So much for religious tolerance.

Last time I looked this was a country where anyone eligible to vote could vote for the candidate of their choice. It just so happens that the voters prefer candidates with a religious faith. Strangely, so did the founders of this country.

I'm also still waiting for you to name these "ultraconservative and ultrareligious" republicans you refer to. If you can't then perhaps you want to retract that absurd statement.

 

[Starfish]

They didn't call themselves Christians period.

If you're referring to Jefferson and Adams; did you read their quotes?

 

[lilithu]

They didn't call themselves Christians period.

Man, your arguments are just so well reasoned and grounded in reality. :sarcastic If you'd actually read the quotes, yes they did call themselves Christians. Adams considered himself a Christian, even tho he didn't believe that Jesus was God. And Jefferson at various times lambasted Christianity and at other times claimed that he was the true Christian, (which was not contradictory - just different sides of the argument).

The argument you should be making, if you indeed were capable of logic, is that what they meant by Christian is very different than what people generally mean by Christian, and therefore it would be misleading and disingenuous to call them Christian.

 

[crystalonyx]

The argument you should be making, if you indeed were capable of logic, is that what they meant by Christian is very different than what people generally mean by Christian, and therefore it would be misleading and disingenuous to call them Christian.

You are the one who is illogical, their definition of Chrisitanity was no different than ours, their attitude towards it, however, was much different.

 

[lilithu]

You are the one who is illogical, their definition of Chrisitanity was no different than ours, their attitude towards it, however, was much different.

Really.... then why would they both say at various times that they were Christian??

 

[logician]

Really.... then why would they both say at various times that they were Christian??

I believe their quotes , "in general", some have posted show that they were either agnostic or deists, or some combination thereof, specific quotes taken at some point in their lives out of context do not apply.