The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.

[Scuba Pete]

This simply isn't true, and several were very close to being atheists, certainly they would be considered so in our day and time.

Now we enter into flights of fancy. Are we herding pink unicorns today?

 

[Popeyesays]

Now we enter into flights of fancy. Are we herding pink unicorns today?

logician has a tendency to speak for others.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Sententia]

Wow, you're really grasping at straws, there.

LOL... BUT there might be some truth to it... lets look

We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice and sEcure domeStic tranqUility. Provide for the common defenSe, promote the general welfare and secure the BLESSINGS of liberty, for ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.

Clearly obvious to me. Remember Bare Feet not Arms. hehe.

 

[lilithu]

We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice and secure domestic tranquility. Provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the BLESSINGS of liberty, for ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.

Where do blessings come from? God. God is referenced in the constitution directly though not by name.

Um, from THE PEOPLE.

WE, the People provide the blessings for ourselves and our posterity. That's what the sentence is literally saying. It really can't get much more straight-forward.

 

[gnomon]

The following is a list of unique Judeo-Christian principles that the U.S. was founded on:
















It's a long list.

 

[lilithu]

LOL... BUT there might be some truth to it... lets look

Dude, you're clearly not reading it right. It's:

We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish JusticE and SecUre domeStic tranquility. ProvIde for the common defenSe, promote the general Welfare And secure the BLESSINGS of libertY, for ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.

 

[zippythepinhead]

Nonsense!

Main Entry: bless·ing Function: noun Date: before 12th century 1 a: the act or words of one that blesses b: approval, encouragement
2: a thing conducive to happiness or welfare
3: grace said at a meal

Regards,
Scott

Apparently the un or undereducated debate on this thread. My suggestion is that you read all the Federalist Papers, Jefferson's writings, Washington's writings, Madison's writings(Father of Constitution) OR live in your fantasy world of histroical revisionism.:areyoucra

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Apparently the un or undereducated debate on this thread. My suggestion is that you read all the Federalist Papers, Jefferson's writings, Washington's writings, Madison's writings(Father of Constitution) OR live in your fantasy world of histroical revisionism.:areyoucra

Would Jefferson's writings include his "wall of separation" letter to the Danbury Baptist Association?

Also, I'm not sure why you wouldn't include the writings of Tom Paine in that list. While not technically a Framer of the Constitution, his writings were widely known and, IMO, had a significant impact on the minds of the American Founding Fathers.

 

[Quiddity]

Even if it wasn't, the fathers of this country certainly catered to them.

 

[Draka]

Apparently the un or undereducated debate on this thread. My suggestion is that you read all the Federalist Papers, Jefferson's writings, Washington's writings, Madison's writings(Father of Constitution) OR live in your fantasy world of histroical revisionism.:areyoucra

So are you calling all the people on this thread who recognize the founding fathers for what they really were and have been presenting actual facts as un/under-educated...or just Popeyesays?


Why do people, who are in the wrong, have to insult others' intelligence when they are proven wrong? It just shows the immature childish side. "I'm not wrong! You have cooties!"

 

[Popeyesays]

Apparently the un or undereducated debate on this thread. My suggestion is that you read all the Federalist Papers, Jefferson's writings, Washington's writings, Madison's writings(Father of Constitution) OR live in your fantasy world of histroical revisionism.:areyoucra

:slap:


What degrees do you hold, what are your publications?

Regards,
Scott

 

[gnomon]

Apparently the un or undereducated debate on this thread. My suggestion is that you read all the Federalist Papers, Jefferson's writings, Washington's writings, Madison's writings(Father of Constitution) OR live in your fantasy world of histroical revisionism.:areyoucra

Feel free to use the Federalist Papers, Jefferson's writings, Washington's writings, Madison's writings or any other source you think you can find that states unequivocally that they founded the United States on unique Judeo-Christian principles.

 

[Starfish]

Nonetheless whether Christian or Deist leaning the historical evidence overwhelmingly shows that the nation was founded on Judeaochristian principles. The Deist thing is overplayed to. More Founding Fathers were Christian, some inactive, than just Deist. In fact many went to church at least on a semi regular basis.

There is plenty of evidence that the Founding Fathers were religious. Most were Christian. Some showed some disallusionment with the current churches, (remember this was pre-1830), but not with God.

They felt the need to establish a government that would allow for religion to flourish freely, knowing of its importance in a society. I think they were more concerned with protecting religion from government, rather than the other way around.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Apparently the un or undereducated debate on this thread.

That's OK, We are going to continue to let you debate here. Have fun now. Hope you learn something.

 

[Smoke]

This simply isn't true, and several were very close to being atheists, certainly they would be considered so in our day and time.

I think it's more the other way around, really. Some of the founding fathers were called atheists by their contemporaries, but we'd consider them deists.

Tom Paine's Age of Reason was called the "atheist bible," for instance, even though Paine very explicitly identified himself as a deist.

My favorite is example is from the election campaign of 1800, when the Federalists warned that Jefferson was an atheist, and if he was elected he'd burn all the Bibles and force the people to sing the Marseillaise in church.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They felt the need to establish a government that would allow for religion to flourish freely, knowing of its importance in a society. I think they were more concerned with protecting religion from government, rather than the other way around.

I think that allowing religion - all religion - to flourish freely requires protection in both directions, and that they recognized this. When one religion permeates the government, it gives that religion the power of a government. This runs completely counter to the freedom of every other religion.

The United States emerged from a British society in which there was an official state religion; with this had come bloody wars and persecution... at the time of the American Revolution, there may have even been people still alive in the Colonies who had lived under the heavy crackdown on Catholicism during the reign of William and Mary in the early 18th Century. The first glimmers of the restoration of legal rights for minority religions with the Papists Act of 1778 was still several years away, and the Church had real power in government: for instance, the House of Lords (the British equivalent to the Senate, roughly) included bishops appointed to it by the Church of England, who had the power to vote on legislation just like any other Lord.*

To an 18th Century British Colonialist, religion in government represented tyranny, and religious power in the affairs of the nation represented a denial of the right of self-determination of the people. As such, regardless of the personal beliefs of any of the Founding Fathers, I find it very hard to swallow that they would be willing to effectively hand the keys to the castle over to any church... even one they belonged to or generally agreed with.



*A power that they still technically have - "Lords Spiritual" still sit in the House of Lords and currently make up ~4% of its membership, but they generally no longer exercise their power to sway votes.

 

[Quiddity]

I think that allowing religion - all religion - to flourish freely requires protection in both directions, and that they recognized this. When one religion permeates the government, it gives that religion the power of a government. This runs completely counter to the freedom of every other religion.

The United States emerged from a British society in which there was an official state religion; with this had come bloody wars and persecution... at the time of the American Revolution, there may have even been people still alive in the Colonies who had lived under the heavy crackdown on Catholicism during the reign of William and Mary in the early 18th Century. The first glimmers of the restoration of legal rights for minority religions with the Papists Act of 1778 was still several years away, and the Church had real power in government: for instance, the House of Lords (the British equivalent to the Senate, roughly) included bishops appointed to it by the Church of England, who had the power to vote on legislation just like any other Lord.*

To an 18th Century British Colonialist, religion in government represented tyranny, and religious power in the affairs of the nation represented a denial of the right of self-determination of the people. As such, regardless of the personal beliefs of any of the Founding Fathers, I find it very hard to swallow that they would be willing to effectively hand the keys to the castle over to any church... even one they belonged to or generally agreed with.



*A power that they still technically have - "Lords Spiritual" still sit in the House of Lords and currently make up ~4% of its membership, but they generally no longer exercise their power to sway votes.

Although what you have described is an accurate account of what played out in history, I think what is missed is that the same movements trying free themselves from the powers to be in Britain, ended up creating it’s smaller twin with states in the colonies free under the Constitution to have officially supported a church or churches. In some states, people who were not of the majority religion/s had often to pay taxes to support the ministers of the established churches; these often urged disestablishment; this of course caused the minority to challenge the majority.

The reality is that separation of church and state as people understand it today is nothing more then a 19th century phenomenon. The reconceptualization of what it meant to be American in the 19th century was greatly affected by the glorification of egalitarianism, individualism, and mental independence from authority and superstition ushered in an expanded anticlericalism.

 

[Father Heathen]

Here you go: Is America a Christian Nation?

/thread

 

[kai]

i know its a catholic paper but it has some interesting points.
Is America a Christian Nation?

 

[logician]

I think it's more the other way around, really. Some of the founding fathers were called atheists by their contemporaries, but we'd consider them deists.

Tom Paine's Age of Reason was called the "atheist bible," for instance, even though Paine very explicitly identified himself as a deist.

My favorite is example is from the election campaign of 1800, when the Federalists warned that Jefferson was an atheist, and if he was elected he'd burn all the Bibles and force the people to sing the Marseillaise in church.

I think my real point here, is that if these men actually lived in our day and tine, they would be hard-core atheists, not giving lip service at all to any god.