Well said!!!
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The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.
- Thread starter logician
- Start date
Well said!!!
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Agreed, of course.
But I also think the claim that most of our Founding Fathers were atheists is pure historical revisionism too. No shortage of historical revisionism going around.
NoahideHiker
Religious Headbanger
It is clear to see what the Founding Fathers thought by simply reading what they wrote.
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." [SIZE=-1]- Benjamin Franklin [SIZE=-2](Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." [SIZE=-1]- Thomas Paine [SIZE=-2](The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." [SIZE=-1]- George Washington [SIZE=-2](Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." [SIZE=-1]- Thomas Jefferson [SIZE=-2](letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." [SIZE=-1]- Benjamin Franklin [SIZE=-2](from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."[SIZE=-1]- Thomas Paine [SIZE=-2](The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." [SIZE=-1]- Thomas Jefferson [SIZE=-2](Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." [SIZE=-1]- James Madison [SIZE=-2](Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" [SIZE=-1]- John Adams[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' [SIZE=-1]- James Madison [SIZE=-2](Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]We even find in actual documents of the government proof that christianity was not the end all faith of America. Here is an exerpt from the Treaty of Tripoli dated 1797.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." [SIZE=-2]- (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)
Source
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"I believe in one God, Creator of the universe.... That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children.... As to Jesus ... I have ... some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble." [SIZE=-1]- Benjamin Franklin [SIZE=-2](Alice J. Hall, "Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin," National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." [SIZE=-1]- Thomas Paine [SIZE=-2](The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." [SIZE=-1]- George Washington [SIZE=-2](Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." [SIZE=-1]- Thomas Jefferson [SIZE=-2](letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." [SIZE=-1]- Benjamin Franklin [SIZE=-2](from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=verdana,sans-serif]I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."[SIZE=-1]- Thomas Paine [SIZE=-2](The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." [SIZE=-1]- Thomas Jefferson [SIZE=-2](Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." [SIZE=-1]- James Madison [SIZE=-2](Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" [SIZE=-1]- John Adams[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' [SIZE=-1]- James Madison [SIZE=-2](Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]We even find in actual documents of the government proof that christianity was not the end all faith of America. Here is an exerpt from the Treaty of Tripoli dated 1797.[/FONT]
[FONT=verdana,sans-serif]"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." [SIZE=-2]- (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)
Source
[/SIZE][/FONT]
crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
Agreed, of course.
Or the claim that several did not lean towards atheism is also pure historical revisionism.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Is there ever?Agreed, of course.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
You don't see a difference between those two claims?
Frubals!
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
HA! I thought you were linking to a serious article, so I left it to read after I'd caught up on the board. I think you're giving logician too much credit.Agreed, of course.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Um, several in fact did not lean towards atheism. How is that historical revisionism?
And then there's weirdos like me, who write their dates Year/Month/Day when given the option.Since I travel extensively oversees, I find myself constantly having to figure out which convention to use. Since I write it June 16th, 2008, and not the 16th of June, 2008 I find the American convention the most logical one for me. However, Day/Month/Year is great for obsessive compulsives (CDO) who have to over organize everything.
BTW - I do it for clarity: when you're confronted with X/Y/20ZZ, you can't tell whether X or Y is the day or month. With 20ZZ/Y/X, you know that Y is the month and X is the day, because nobody writes their dates Year/Day/Month.
The Declaration of Independence also declares liberty to be an inalienable right, yet prisons are constitutional, legal and widely used in the United States, as they have been throughout its history (maybe not as widely used as today, but they've always been a common practice).
I don't think the Declaration of Independence is the final word on what is legal, or even what the Constitutional framers intended.
Agreed, of course.
hehe... agreed.
And then there's weirdos like me, who write their dates Year/Month/Day when given the option.
BTW - I do it for clarity: when you're confronted with X/Y/20ZZ, you can't tell whether X or Y is the day or month. With 20ZZ/Y/X, you know that Y is the month and X is the day, because nobody writes their dates Year/Day/Month.
The Declaration of Independence also declares liberty to be an inalienable right, yet prisons are constitutional, legal and widely used in the United States, as they have been throughout its history (maybe not as widely used as today, but they've always been a common practice).
I don't think the Declaration of Independence is the final word on what is legal, or even what the Constitutional framers intended.
I do the same thibg with dates! Esp organizing pictures etc.
zippythepinhead
Your Tax Dollars At Work
Nonetheless whether Christian or Deist leaning the historical evidence overwhelmingly shows that the nation was founded on Judeaochristian principles. The Deist thing is overplayed to. More Founding Fathers were Christian, some inactive, than just Deist. In fact many went to church at least on a semi regular basis.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Set aside the Declaration of Independence for a moment for it is a reason for civil war, not a foundation document for a government.
Where in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights is God mentioned? Answer NOWHERE.
On the other hand one must rememb er that the treaty in question was a document to dicker the price of tribute with a pirate nation that prayed on U.S. shipping--shipping that was virtually unprotected by a fleet in the Mediterranean.
The treaty writers wanted the best and lowest price for baksheesh, it said what would achieve the "best" rate.
The U.S. a few years later decided that NO tribute was the best rate and ponied up the money to send a fleet to the Mediterranean and conduct The Barbary War against Tripoli and the other pirate nations.
If you can sing the first verse of The Marine Hymn you DO know about the Barbary Wars.
Barbary Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One can't inflate the importance of the document too much. Sure Judaeo Christian concepts run through the founding of the U.S.. But it is just as compelling to note that when the ink hit the paper the founding fathers did whatever necessary to keep this government unassociated with any official religion.
Regards,
Scoptt
I go to church on a semi-regular basis. I am not a theist or deist by any stretch of the imagination, and none of my morality is dependent on Christianity specifically or "Judeochristian principles" generally. Why do you make your assumption when it comes to the American Founding Fathers?
I think it's also useful to remember the context in which the Constitution was written: the framers of the document would have been very familiar with a long history in Britain and Continental Europe of sectarian violence and the outright tyranny and wholesale murder inflicted in the name of state religion. Given what I see as an attempt by the American Founding Fathers to quash what they saw as harmful aspects of the culture of their origin, I think the idea of establishing a secular government separated from religion completely fits with that goal, regardless of the personal beliefs of those involved in creation of the United States government and its fundamental laws.
zippythepinhead
Your Tax Dollars At Work
We the people, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice and secure domestic tranquility. Provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the BLESSINGS of liberty, for ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.
Where do blessings come from? God. God is referenced in the constitution directly though not by name.
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
Nonsense!
Main Entry: bless·ing Function: noun Date: before 12th century 1 a: the act or words of one that blesses b: approval, encouragement
2: a thing conducive to happiness or welfare
3: grace said at a meal
Regards,
Scott
Draka
Wonder Woman
Um, no, first off it was not founded on Judeochristian principles. Why is it so hard for some people to realize that there are common concepts throughout humankind, regardless of religion, that are considered best for working and condusive societies? The fact that some religions also have these concepts incorporated into them doesn't mean that a government based on these principles are based on any religion. Just that certain things agree. The U.S. was founded on Christianity about as much as environmental laws are based on Earth-centered Pagan religions.
Second, it has been shown over and over that most of the "Founding Fathers" were not truly Christian at all, but more Deist or even agnostic in their beliefs. Just because someone may go to or attend a church (in that time a normal gathering for communities to socialize and discuss business and politics as well as worship) doesn't mean that they automatically believe in the beliefs advertised by said church.
Now that really is stretching for a point. And you still can't reach it even with that stretch. One, look up blessing in the dictionary and one of the definitions is "anything which brings happiness". Would you disagree that freedom brings happiness?
Two, how do you refer to someone or something "directly" and NOT directly mention them???
logician
Well-Known Member
This simply isn't true, and several were very close to being atheists, certainly they would be considered so in our day and time.