The UK's Greatest Prime Minister died this morning.

[oldbadger]

For the innumerate: Thatcher did NOT get the majority of the votes cast, she got less (that's L E S S) than 50% of the vote. First past the post is SOOOOOO complex.

She always held the majority of seats. That's the system....... don't like it? Lump it!

 

[sunni56]

I'm cool with that, sunni56. I had a pretty tough time then, (I voted labour every election) but nothing compared to what (I reckon) is in store for us soon. Thing is, they all had good food, clothes, homes and all back then.

But these folks are (partly) talking b-ll-cks. I tell you what, down where I live there were three mining communities. All had to close, because (they said) it cost too much to extract the coal. Really big redundancy payments were handed out. In those days if you had more than a certain amount of money you could not get benefits. Many many ex-miners bought new cars, had huge holidays, built extensions, new angling boats etc until they had 'lost' the cash and could continue on with the benefits, etc, and many of them took jobs with security companies straight away (they were tough). I know because I was training them!! They were ok, most were laughing! So now, when I read (some of) the cr-p that some of the members (some are foreigners!) are writing, I think to myself that even I, an old enemy of the Conservatives, need to stand up for Margaret Thatcher! That's where I have been in this debate. Crazy or what?

And as for the one telling about the angry soldiers an' all, I know ex-Falklanders (a bombhead) and ex-N.Irelanders (Princess Wales Reg) and they all say the same thing, that they adored Maggie and trusted her bravery.

So, like so many Brits, (we are crazy,it's true) when I see a person down and getting kicked by people....... I think, 'Hell, time to tell'em to s-d off!'. It's just a Brit thing. I'm sure other cultures do it too.

I think it's refreshing to hear another British voice I never knew things like that were happening under Thatcher. But I knew that she introduced the "right to buy" scheme where people bought homes for practically nothing and now are laughing all the way to the bank.

One thing that I hate about the way our country is governed though, is that the ruling party gets to ram in everything they want. There's no checks and balances like in America. So thatcher was basically able to ram everything she wanted down the throats of the people that despised her. It's a bit like what we have now with the Cameron-Clegg civil partnership. There is literally no stopping them.

 

[oldbadger]

I think it's refreshing to hear another British voice I never knew things like that were happening under Thatcher. But I knew that she introduced the "right to buy" scheme where people bought homes for practically nothing and now are laughing all the way to the bank.

One thing that I hate about the way our country is governed though, is that the ruling party gets to ram in everything they want. There's no checks and balances like in America. So thatcher was basically able to ram everything she wanted down the throats of the people that despised her. It's a bit like what we have now with the Cameron-Clegg civil partnership. There is literally no stopping them.

Ha ha! You a Brit too! Brilliant!

OK........ loads of people got the chance to buy their homes, but they mostly paid about 40% of the market value, because they had lived in them for so long. The same calc as was used for (private) sitting tenants was used for the council house owners (I believe). So loads of working class people got the chance to own a home. These homes had tiny values anyway, because most private buyers never wanted to buy into council areas (snobby).

And now, the critics here are shouting that she only cared for the rich!!!! Oh..... they are so crank with their arguments against her.

You're right about the cramming of legislation during each Parliament. Look at the present time! Some nasty new stuff gone thru' ref benefits etc. The liberals have had it for ever, I think.....yes? UKIP has a chance now, I reckon.:yes:

 

[Alceste]

She always held the majority of seats. That's the system....... don't like it? Lump it!

That's his point. Majority of the seats =/= majority of the votes in first past the post electoral systems. Our own crappy conservatives (who are busily Thatcherizing Canada as we speak) had 39% of the vote and got 54% of the seats.

 

[sunni56]

Ha ha! You a Brit too! Brilliant!

OK........ loads of people got the chance to buy their homes, but they mostly paid about 40% of the market value, because they had lived in them for so long. The same calc as was used for (private) sitting tenants was used for the council house owners (I believe). So loads of working class people got the chance to own a home. These homes had tiny values anyway, because most private buyers never wanted to buy into council areas (snobby).

And now, the critics here are shouting that she only cared for the rich!!!! Oh..... they are so crank with their arguments against her.

You're right about the cramming of legislation during each Parliament. Look at the present time! Some nasty new stuff gone thru' ref benefits etc. The liberals have had it for ever, I think.....yes? UKIP has a chance now, I reckon.:yes:

But would you want UKIP to start gaining seats? I'm not a fan of their policies to be honest. A flat tax is a total disaster, it won't even hold up the NHS, it's regressive etc. loads of problems with that. Their foreign policy is totally isolationist, they don't like the US, the EU etc. Their policies in general are unrealistic and belong in the US republican base, not in the UK. We're not as stupid as the US republicans.

 

[Secret Chief]

That's his point. Majority of the seats =/= majority of the votes in first past the post electoral systems.

Thanks. The not so subtle change from 'votes' to 'seats' is a nice touch.

 

[Secret Chief]

She always held the majority of seats. That's the system....... don't like it? Lump it!

You said votes, not seats. Why not just admit you were mistaken?

 

[YmirGF]

That's his point. Majority of the seats =/= majority of the votes in first past the post electoral systems. Our own crappy conservatives (who are busily Thatcherizing Canada as we speak) had 39% of the vote and got 54% of the seats.

Bet you wouldn't be moaning about it if the NDP had won the election.

 

[Secret Chief]

Are you a Brit, by the way? If so, we have always shown some honour, even to enemies who tried to kill ours in the field of battle. They would receive an honourable funeral.

I'm British.

I reject your nonsense totally. You have an attitude worthy of the Daily Mail.

A small country does not come to own and control a quarter of the world through respecting others. Your introduction of military language is a clue as to how that was achieved. One small example: when the British introduced concentration camps against the Boers, was that showing respect?

I think you're done here.

 

[oldbadger]

You said votes, not seats. Why not just admit you were mistaken?

You come on this thread, screaming and howling against Margaret Thatcher's person and past governments. Enjoying songs which mock her, and the rest.

By attacking her after death you reduce yourself (with others) from 'fine predator' to 'cheap scavenger'. The huge massive majority of us scorn people like you who crawl out from under stones to kick the deceased.

And here you are, trying to show that you understand the 'intricacy' of our ages old voting system, which we upheld in open-vote only a few years ago. And earlier you wrote that MT 'played the system' or some rot? In one vote she could possibly have won by straight head-count (I don't know, don't care).

No, you're not that bright.......

 

[oldbadger]

I'm British.

Now we know! That was easy.

I reject your nonsense totally. You have an attitude worthy of the Daily Mail.

I have the attitude of a labour voter who can show a little honour to old enemies.

A small country does not come to own and control a quarter of the world through respecting others. Your introduction of military language is a clue as to how that was achieved.

My intro? My intro of military language? Gotcha! Our small country got big thru all it's goverments, and you have been clothed and fattened on the results. Gotcha.

One small example: when the British introduced concentration camps against the Boers, was that showing respect?

That old chestnut. That all you got left? I am suposed to have supported those? How pathetic an argument. But then, look at you and your conduct here.

I think you're done here.

Yes.......... I'll let it stand now for other readers to decide. Can do no more.

 

[oldbadger]

...............snip............ one thing she did do was stamp out the stereotype that women can't be leaders.

Hello......... Octavia, I'm done here, you can't expect an old Labour supporter to debate blue points...... , but I think you understand that.

Surely it's for you to pick up this thread now........

 

[Alceste]

Bet you wouldn't be moaning about it if the NDP had won the election.

No, but I bet you would.

 

[Alceste]

You come on this thread, screaming and howling against Margaret Thatcher's person and past governments. Enjoying songs which mock her, and the rest.

By attacking her after death you reduce yourself (with others) from 'fine predator' to 'cheap scavenger'. The huge massive majority of us scorn people like you who crawl out from under stones to kick the deceased.

And here you are, trying to show that you understand the 'intricacy' of our ages old voting system, which we upheld in open-vote only a few years ago. And earlier you wrote that MT 'played the system' or some rot? In one vote she could possibly have won by straight head-count (I don't know, don't care).

No, you're not that bright.......

Not entirely true - we are in Canada but we have an elderly British neighbour. He's a life-long Tory. Thatcher came up and it turns out he hates her too. He thinks she forever destroyed the prospects of the party he supported all his life, dividing the country irreparably. He said she created a line, and the Conservatives will never get elected in Scotland, Manchester, or anywhere in the North because of her, and he thinks that's terrible.

This is a really conservative guy. A guy who said last week, and I quote, "See? Hitler was basically right about everything!"

 

[Sunstone]

The custom of not criticizing the dead makes sense in the case of dead who are neither famous nor political. But it doesn't make sense in the case of dead who are both famous and political. In the latter case, it is unfair to impose a ban on criticizing the dead without also imposing a ban on praising them. That's because the occasion of their death is used to promote their party's politics and views, and if you shouldn't criticize them, you shouldn't praise them in order to gain political points, either.

 

[Alceste]

The custom of not criticizing the dead makes sense in the case of dead who are neither famous nor political. But it doesn't make sense in the case of dead who are both famous and political. In the latter case, it is unfair to impose a ban on criticizing the dead without also imposing a ban on praising them. That's because the occasion of their death is used to promote their party's politics and views, and if you shouldn't criticize them, you shouldn't praise them, either.

Exactly. Politicians should be buried quietly and privately by their (hopefully) grieving families at their own expense, just like the rest of us. If you're going to make a monstrous public spectacle of it, you need to toughen up and take whatever criticism comes.

 

[oldbadger]

Not entirely true - we are in Canada but we have an elderly British neighbour. He's a life-long Tory. Thatcher came up and it turns out he hates her too. He thinks she forever destroyed the prospects of the party he supported all his life, dividing the country irreparably. He said she created a line, and the Conservatives will never get elected in Scotland, Manchester, or anywhere in the North because of her, and he thinks that's terrible.

This is a really conservative guy. A guy who said last week, and I quote, "See? Hitler was basically right about everything!"

So...... let me get this right....... this old bloke who likes Hitler, yet hates Thatcher, somehow gains some point to assist your argument? You want to use him? You think that's a bright idea?

OK...... These miner's sons from A---ham, many ex Falklands squaddies, some ex-paras, who I knew well, would never have voted Conservative (Thatcher), but loved her for her guts. This is just the same as with Churchill, who we loved for his guts, but (our parents) voted out of power after the war, because we disagreed with his politics.

Do you find this difficult? And do you think many ex Falklands and N.I. vets will be insulting her next week? I tell you, I mentioned your 'angry squaddie' post to my mate (ex Princess-Wales reg) and he laughed and wondered whether the ruse worked on you. Well.......did it?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

At the time of her power I was a little Local Liberal party Chairman (pre lib dems) and worked my socks off against her party and policies.
There is no one I have ever hated, but her, and perhaps hitler come close.

I did not respect her then and I can see no reason to respect her now.
I can understand how people, who were badly damaged by her policies, would want to continue to demonstrate their outrage now.

The present conservatives are glorifying her in death, and hope to gain advantage from it in next months local elections. The fact is that by doing so, they are reminding everyone that they are now and were then the "Nasty party"

It is interesting how quiet the British National Party and the United kingdom Independence parties are keeping, I find it hard to believe they will remain so.

I also find it strange that the Queen and Prince Philip are attending while the other Royals have declined.

 

[Alceste]

So...... let me get this right....... this old bloke who likes Hitler, yet hates Thatcher, somehow gains some point to assist your argument? You want to use him? You think that's a bright idea?

OK...... These miner's sons from A---ham, many ex Falklands squaddies, some ex-paras, who I knew well, would never have voted Conservative (Thatcher), but loved her for her guts. This is just the same as with Churchill, who we loved for his guts, but (our parents) voted out of power after the war, because we disagreed with his politics.

Do you find this difficult? And do you think many ex Falklands and N.I. vets will be insulting her next week? I tell you, I mentioned your 'angry squaddie' post to my mate (ex Princess-Wales reg) and he laughed and wondered whether the ruse worked on you. Well.......did it?

I don't "find this difficult", I've just never in my life met anyone who liked or admired Margaret Thatcher, and I lived in Cornwall for two years. Even the most conservative Brit I know did not like or admire Thatcher. That was the point of my bringing him up. He admires Hitler, but was disappointed by Thatcher. And in the entire spectrum of Brits I've met from that guy to my hubby's mum, who used to lovingly read the works of Chairman Mao in her youth, you're the only Brit I've ever talked to who admired or liked anything about Margaret Thatcher.

That's just the truth. Do you find it difficult?

 

[oldbadger]

The custom of not criticizing the dead makes sense in the case of dead who are neither famous nor political.

Hi.....! I was supposed to bail out of this thread a page ago! Oh well...

But it doesn't make sense in the case of dead who are both famous and political. In the latter case, it is unfair to impose a ban on criticizing the dead without also imposing a ban on praising them.

Criticism with praise, both come together......... cool. Yeah.

That's because the occasion of their death is used to promote their party's politics and views, and if you shouldn't criticize them, you shouldn't praise them in order to gain political points, either.

You must be joking! It would be really stupid for our Con/Lib government to use Thatcher as a political lever. They can't be that daft.
Even our Opposition leader gave her individual recognition whilst explaining that he could never have supported her.

I don't know you, but I bet you won't approve of some of the cr-p which will happen next week. Police Constables will be attacked. Shops will be looted. Cars will be wrecked.