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The Ultimate Challenge To Creationists

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Are there birds which are not winged?



Ever seen a tiny insect praising Jehovah? I am not sure I would praise Jehovah for His creative genius if I were a tiny insect whose existence depends on the food provided by other animals excrements or rotting bodies.



How can something that is invisible be clearly visible?

Ciao

- viole
I believe the birds and insects praise their Creator in the sense that they manifest in their intricate form and function the wisdom of Jehovah. Think what life would be like if these tiny creatures did not remove the waste and dead bodies, serving as a natural sanitation squad. How unlike humans, who pile their garbage in landfills that blight the environment, or simply dump it wherever they choose.
As to how something invisible can be clearly seen, the Bible argues from effect to cause. "By faith we perceive that the systems of things were put in order by God’s word, so that what is seen has come into existence from things that are not visible." (Hebrews 11:3)
God's power and Godship are perceived by what he has created, just as the skill of ancient architects can be discerned by what they built. A superhuman intelligent mind, for example, can be perceived in the form and information content stored in DNA. No reasonable person would claim the software that operates a computer came into existence through the chance arrangement of millions of binary numbers. Yet, such software is to DNA, what the ABCs are to the Encyclopedia Brittanica.
 

NulliuSINverba

Active Member


Make your case for creationism WITHOUT alluding to evolution or its principles.


seven-days-of-creation-i-sushobha-jenner.jpg


Q. - Since evolution is firmly grounded in scientific principles, how in the world could a creationist make a scientific case without referencing science?

Creationists have little to offer aside from Evolution-Fails-To-Address-X-Therefore-God styled arguments, but if they're to be expected to produce scientific arguments to prop up their theologically-minded delusions, shouldn't they be permitted to at least reference the same scientific principles that are the foundation of evolution?

...

Marginalia: Where are the dinosaurs in that image of Eden? Hiding behind the sunbeam?
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
It is not enough to claim your god is the true God. The world is full of false gods, but none of these can prove their Godship. Jehovah alone has done so, and challenges the false gods to prove what they claim. (Isaiah 43:9-13 and 44:6-20)
Funny thing is that nothing in either of those verses actually showed god proving his "godship". He challenged other gods to show themselves but then later states that thous shalt not tempt the lord.

So yeah. The world is full of false gods. However what evidence do you have that the Christian god is not also a false god?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Q. - Since evolution is firmly grounded in scientific principles, how in the world could a creationist make a scientific case without referencing science?
Not looking for a case necessarily rooted in science, just a case that doesn't reference evolution or its principles. I'm open to whatever they can come up with.


..
 

Objectiveguy

New Member
Hello. At last I found a thread that isn't 20 pages long, so I can say something pertaining to the original topic! Huzzah!

Anyway, now for my assault of Skwim's awesome question.

I trust we all agree that the universe had an origin of some kind. As none of us can witness to what transpired at the beginning, we have to believe someone else's account or formulate our own theories. There are tons of theories that others (humans) have put forward over the years, and humans have a nasty habit of forcing what they perceive into their worldview, so often when you or I accept a theory as valid, we buy into the theorist's worldview to some extent or another. We have an inherent need to believe in a worldview/religion, an do so to the extent of being offended by new data that contradicts our beliefs.. Which brings me to my next point: humans have to interpret data. We organize what we perceive into patterns and systems within our minds. Also, once we've organized perceived data into structures, we hate reorganizing those structures, and that's the problem with science; "science" isn't an infallible collection of truth, its the product of human synthesis of data. Looking at history, we see people rejecting new (and valid) data over and over so they won't have to change their belief that their interpretation is right. This doesn't only happen in secular scientific fields, but in religious ones too.

My point (which probably seems very elusive amidst my preamble) is that us humans, on our own, will always be in the dark to some extent. By thinking our ideas are right in the absolute sense of the word, we become victims of hubris and commit grave errors. (eg. At the time when Newton's laws where accepted as a complete model of physics, many scientists resisted Einstein's ideas. The laws of Newton weren't wrong, but they where incomplete model, and in thinking otherwise many educated and intelligent people made themselves victims of the phenomenon I describe.)

I am what could be described as an evangelical Christian, but I don't assume that what I believe, religious or otherwise, cannot be incorrect. I won't "Make my case for creationism" by presenting evidence and refuting others, instead I'll just say the following: For every theory there is evidence for and against. Evidence must be considered on its own merits, not discounted or accepted by its accordance with our beliefs. Valid evidence for creation is hard to come by these days, as much of it has been twisted to fit belief systems, or to attack the belief systems of others. However, I have found the Journal of Creation publications by Creation Ministries International to be quite good at presenting unbiased scientific (yes, I said scientific. Science and the bible aren't incompatible, as science isn't what scientists believe, but rather searching for truth through logical practices) information, so if you can, get some of their material and consider it with an open mind.

Last point: don't treat science as a religion. Saying something isn't science because it contradicts scientists isn't scientific.
 
Dear Philotech, Please present YOUR evidence of the evolution of Apes to Humans, unless you are afraid to tell us out of fear of being laughed at. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman
Is there any evolutionist in the world who can explain how life came from NON-LIFE under normal, natural, UN-controlled circumstances? I put those "conditions" because those were the conditions under which evolutionists believe that non-life turned into LIFE.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Is there any evolutionist in the world who can explain how life came from NON-LIFE under normal, natural, UN-controlled circumstances? I put those "conditions" because those were the conditions under which evolutionists believe that non-life turned into LIFE.
Not all evolutionists believe that (look up theistic evolution). Evolution works equally well if the first cell was created supernaturally or if it arose through abiogenesis. Evolution doesn't require an explanation for the origin of life in the first place; all it requires is that life exists.
 
Yep, no "evolution can't explain X, so creationism is right"-type arguments. Even if humans were made from dirt that was supernaturally transformed into carbon-based flesh, how would you ever prove that scientifically?
No human being has the brain capability to explain how the universe started or began in the first place. The Big bang theory is still called a THEORY and not fact. The B.B.T. is like telling a person on the ground floor to go to the 10th floor of a building by starting from the 3rd floor. By that I mean this: for the BB to happen there had to be space in which to happen, then material for the explosion, then pressure and heat. Where did they come from?
 

McBell

Unbound
No human being has the brain capability to explain how the universe started or began in the first place. The Big bang theory is still called a THEORY and not fact. The B.B.T. is like telling a person on the ground floor to go to the 10th floor of a building by starting from the 3rd floor. By that I mean this: for the BB to happen there had to be space in which to happen, then material for the explosion, then pressure and heat. Where did they come from?
I know!!
God Did It!!

Of course, that answer does not actually answer anything outside the warm fuzzy feelings it gives some people.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Is there any evolutionist in the world who can explain how life came from NON-LIFE under normal, natural, UN-controlled circumstances? I put those "conditions" because those were the conditions under which evolutionists believe that non-life turned into LIFE.
Something like this? A New Physics Theory of Life - Scientific American

Or like this? Spark of life: Metabolism appears in lab without cells - life - 25 April 2014 - New Scientist

Or perhaps this? BBC News - Complex organic molecule found in interstellar space

The key idea to keep in mind here is that if the universe is "fine tuned for life", life should occur naturally. What if there was a God who created the universe to be able to produce life on its own, basically creating evolution as the means to create life? Why is that so hard to believe? Why must the only way God can create be the Genesis way?
 
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Parsimony

Well-Known Member
No human being has the brain capability to explain how the universe started or began in the first place. The Big bang theory is still called a THEORY and not fact. The B.B.T. is like telling a person on the ground floor to go to the 10th floor of a building by starting from the 3rd floor. By that I mean this: for the BB to happen there had to be space in which to happen, then material for the explosion, then pressure and heat. Where did they come from?
Do you know what the definition of a scientific theory is? Besides, the Big Bang theory doesn't provide the origins of the Big Bang singularity. It only says that there once was one.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
No human being has the brain capability to explain how the universe started or began in the first place. The Big bang theory is still called a THEORY and not fact. The B.B.T. is like telling a person on the ground floor to go to the 10th floor of a building by starting from the 3rd floor. By that I mean this: for the BB to happen there had to be space in which to happen, then material for the explosion, then pressure and heat. Where did they come from?
Before you embarrass yourself any more than you already have I suggest that you find out what a theory actually is. Hint: it is not what you believe it to be.
 
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Parsimony

Well-Known Member
Before you embarrass yourself any more than you already have I suggest that you find out what a theory actually is. Hint: it is not what you believe it to be.
Um, was that meant for me or Andywelikandy? I didn't define what theory is in my post.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
I agree any god could take credit, but the God of the Bible did, explaining the order he created. No false god can make a convincing case that he created the universe and life upon it. Jehovah does make it clear he is the Maker of heaven and earth, and the evidence supports his claim. The things made prove his wisdom, almighty power, and intelligence far exceeding any man's. (Isaiah 45:12)

Same order as the Sumerians and Babylonians, with a different religion so you know.
 

Sapiens

Polymathematician
I agree any god could take credit, but the God of the Bible did, explaining the order he created. No false god can make a convincing case that he created the universe and life upon it. Jehovah does make it clear he is the Maker of heaven and earth, and the evidence supports his claim. The things made prove his wisdom, almighty power, and intelligence far exceeding any man's. (Isaiah 45:12)
You are talking about Zeus, no?
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Buddy, those are all long dead creationist hoaxes. No unfossilised dino bone was ever found, nor 'blood collagen'.
Sorry, but that's simply not true.

Behold, I've brought you a man...I mean dinosaur!

emu_skeleton_at_field_museum_by_spritle22-d464o6h.jpg


What do I win? ;p
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
No human being has the brain capability to explain how the universe started or began in the first place. The Big bang theory is still called a THEORY and not fact. The B.B.T. is like telling a person on the ground floor to go to the 10th floor of a building by starting from the 3rd floor. By that I mean this: for the BB to happen there had to be space in which to happen, then material for the explosion, then pressure and heat. Where did they come from?

"The Big bang theory is still called a THEORY and not fact. The B.B.T. is like telling a person on the ground floor to go to the 10th floor of a building by starting from the 3rd floor. By that I mean this: for the BB to happen there had to be space in which to happen, then material for the explosion, then pressure and heat."

You seem to have a basic understanding of the topic here on the Big Bang.

""The Big bang theory is still called a THEORY and not fact. "

Wrong

"for the BB to happen there had to be space in which to happen"

It created the universe, hence the "spacetime". Space is also expanding and still is expanding in fact faster then light. It carries matter along with it including us.

"then material for the explosion"

It wasn't an explosion.

"heat"

yes about 7 trillion degree's F
 
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