The Us vs Them dogma within a religion

[Sand Dancer]

Purgatory isn't in the Bible.
We are saved solely by grace through faith.
Not by works, so that no one can boast.

Maybe that is what being "asleep in Jesus" means.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Maybe that is what being "asleep in Jesus" means.

Making up an entire spiritual realm from a few cherry picked phrases that obviously have other meanings is very bad exegesis.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Making up an entire spiritual realm from a few cherry picked phrases that obviously have other meanings is very bad exegesis.

Happens all the time in religion.

 

[metis]

There are not two paths to salvation, which is through Christ alone, even if those saved do not acknowledge him as their savior.

Personally, I don't believe that because it really doesn't make sense to me. Why would God favor one group over all the others throughout the world and throughout all times? [rhetorical question]

That is the position of the Catholic Church. It is the reason that Rahner coined the phrase 'anonymous' Christian, making the case there is no salvation outside of Christ, there is no outside of Christ.

That's fine, but I dissent, especially since I'm very far from being a literalist.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Happens all the time in religion.

Which doesn't make it legitimate.

 

[pearl]

That's fine, but I dissent, especially since I'm very far from being a literalist.

What does a 'literalist' have to do with the Churches position stating that those other than Christians are saved through their own covenants with God?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Purgatory isn't in the Bible.
We are saved solely by grace through faith.
Not by works, so that no one can boast.

Nobody has to boast .. it won't help us.

You say we are saved "solely by faith", as if our deeds no longer matter.
That goes against common sense..
..or does God expect us not to use our intelligence as we go through life?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Nobody has to boast .. it won't help us.

You say we are saved "solely by faith", as if our deeds no longer matter.
That goes against common sense..
..or does God expect us not to use our intelligence as we go through life?

Yes, we are saved solely by grace through faith, not by faith as you said.

God alone saves.
Why do you think that means deeds don't matter?
Of course they matter, they just do not contribute anything to our salvation.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes, we are saved solely by grace through faith, not by faith as you said.

God alone saves.
Why do you think that means deeds don't matter?
Of course they matter, they just do not contribute anything to our salvation.

The Gospels clearly says the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
It doesn't say "sever the non-Christians from the Christians".

So faith is irrelevant.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, we are saved solely by grace through faith, not by faith as you said..

grace: courteous good will.

..so we are saved by "good will", and it has nothing to do with what we believe?

God alone saves.

Naturally, God has all the power, and without God we can't be guided on a straight path.

Why do you think that means deeds don't matter?
Of course they matter, they just do not contribute anything to our salvation.

That is what you imply..
How can our deeds matter, but have no bearing on what happens to us after death?
That is contradictory.

What you are in effect saying, is that a believer who falls into bad ways and consistently sins, and a believer who becomes a saint are both heading for heaven. There is no difference between the two.

What I would say, is that reading something written by a non-infallible man in a literal fashion, without understanding the whole, is likely to end up with a misunderstanding.

 

[Wildswanderer]

grace: courteous good will.

..so we are saved by "good will", and it has nothing to do with what we believe?

Why do you insist on misrepresenting what I said?
You know darn well that grace and faith have to both exist for salvation.

Naturally, God has all the power, and without God we can't be guided on a straight path.


That is what you imply..
How can our deeds matter, but have no bearing on what happens to us after death?
That is contradictory.

Maybe in your mind, but not in scripture

What you are in effect saying, is that a believer who falls into bad ways and consistently sins, and a believer who becomes a saint are both heading for heaven. There is no difference between the two.

What I would say, is that reading something written by a non-infallible man in a literal fashion, without understanding the whole, is likely to end up with a misunderstanding.

Everyone still sins, it's just a question of how much. Believing you can be good enough to deserve salvation is the danger. The people that are called saints in the Bible are not sinless.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The Gospels clearly says the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
It doesn't say "sever the non-Christians from the Christians".

So faith is irrelevant.

The Gospels clearly says the angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just.
It doesn't say "sever the non-Christians from the Christians".

So faith is irrelevant.

Wow, maybe you should actually read the Gospels?
The righteous are defined as those who have faith. And the wicked are those who don't.

 

[Estro Felino]

Wow, maybe you should actually read the Gospels?
The righteous are defined as those who have faith. And the wicked are those who don't.

Where?
Quote the Gospel passage where it says that.
Also referring to Luke 16:19

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why do you insist on misrepresenting what I said?
You know darn well that grace and faith have to both exist for salvation..

Yes .. so what we believe is very important to our salvation.
..but why? Can you explain?

Believing you can be good enough to deserve salvation is the danger..

Pride never does us any good, no..
..but I would say that there is danger in thinking that we are saved purely by believing a creed.

The people that are called saints in the Bible are not sinless.

..and how does that change anything?
They certainly aren't guilty of major sins .. saints do not commit major sins.

 

[Estro Felino]

Some Christians think people no longer sin once saved.

It is called "entitlement". Some Christians think that believing in Jesus Christ's atonement saves them a priori. So they can cheat, betray, harm the neighbor...it doesn't matter. They are saved in their mind.

 

[Sand Dancer]

It is called "entitlement". Some Christians think that believing in Jesus Christ's atonement saves them a priori. So they can cheat, betray, harm the neighbor...it doesn't matter. They are saved in their mind.
Horrific.

Very common in the US. American Christianity is somewhat of an anomaly, however, half of them seem sensible.

 

[osgart]

Christianity is averse to questioning the reality of their religion. That's how obvious the Christian truth is supposed to be to a believer. It's supposed to be far beyond questioning otherwise no one would bear any responsibility to it. However it's very easy for me an atheist to come up with more legitimate questions than that religion has any answers for them all.

The us vs. them mentality is very real in religions of the Abrahamic God. There's very much a group mentality with Christians and doing honest questioning against it is considered deceitfully ignoring the truth of the scriptures once you've heard that message.

I consider the honest position in life is that human beings start off not knowing much of anything from birth. So naturally I have the disposition of questioning everything. For the sake of truthfulness that's the best position to take.

No matter where one lands on the spectrum of belief, and convictions about truth and reality you are guaranteed to find opposition to those beliefs and convictions. Us vs. them happens all the time. It's just that Abrahamic religions are the more obvious cases of it. The religions are set up to create such divisions in the world. I'm glad to have escaped these religions but I still feel the pressure in society from it. Oh well!

 

[Riders]

I would like also to point out that I think certain religions tend to dogmatize the Us vs Them narrative.
That is "all followers of a religion X are good" and "whoever criticizes one follower, criticizes the entire religion".

I think it is a wrong dogma.
If a single follower is a rotten apple, it doesn't mean that the entire religion is bad.
So if I criticize one follower, I am not criticizing the entire religion.

I think that so many Catholics don't like the Vatican, but that doesn't make them non-Catholics.

When Catholics go to Missionize, they tend to serve God and serve the community rather than try to win them over to Catholicism.
I think this is the right attitude.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Where?
Quote the Gospel passage where it says that.
Also referring to Luke 16:19

How can anyone read the New testament and say faith is irrelevant?

Romans 4:3

For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Romans 4:9

Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, “Faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness.”

Galatians 3:6

Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 2:23

and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.
Romans 4:11

and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them,


Romans 4:16

For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Habakkuk 2:4

“Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his faith.

Romans 1:17

For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Galatians 3:11

Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.”

Hebrews 10:38

But My righteous one shall live by faith;
And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him.

Romans 4:5

But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Romans 3:22

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Romans 9:30

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

 

[Wildswanderer]

Yes .. so what we believe is very important to our salvation.
..but why? Can you explain?


Pride never does us any good, no..
..but I would say that there is danger in thinking that we are saved purely by believing a creed.


..and how does that change anything?
They certainly aren't guilty of major sins .. saints do not commit major sins.

What is a major sin?
According to Jesus, you are in danger of hell merely by calling someone a fool.
How do you categorize sin?
What we believe is important to our salvation because if we don't believe the gospel we won't be saved, obviously.
We are saved by believing.
Adding to that is adding to the gospel and making it something other than good news.