The war crimes (in Gaza) continue

[metis]

I believe a few points need to be said:

1.Hamas well knew what it was doing on 10-7 and how Israel would react.

2.Hamas talks peace but has kept sending rockets into Israel that are clearly not of a defensive nature. with the last barrage that I'm aware of being about 3 weeks ago.

3.If Hamas really wanted peace and to protect their own people, they would surrender and seek refuge elsewhere.

4.The real culprit here is Iran, which supplies Hamas with weaponry and finances. With Iran, this is a holy war, and Hamas is just one of their proxies.

There are some more points to be made, but I'll stop here.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Do you think that little strip of land and a couple of million people can win against that?

The war is not against "that little strip of land and a couple of million people."

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The war is not against "that little strip of land and a couple of million people."

I am aware of that. But think, many Muslim countries have come to terms with Israel. Egypt, for starters, Oman, UAE and others. They used to be bitter enemies, and they have been trying hard to broker a peace between Israel and Hamas -- unsuccessfully so far.

One of my many fears about this conflict is that Israel could wind up losing those countries' confidence again, and that has nowhere to go but a Middle East conflagration that nobody wants.

Unless a way can be found in which both Israel and Palestine have a home to call their own, I fear for the future. I don't want to take sides in this -- taking sides is always the first step to further agression.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am aware of that. But think, many Muslim countries have come to terms with Israel. Egypt, for starters, Oman, UAE and others. They used to be bitter enemies, and they have been trying hard to broker a peace between Israel and Hamas -- unsuccessfully so far.

One of my many fears about this conflict is that Israel could wind up losing those countries' confidence again, and that has nowhere to go but a Middle East conflagration that nobody wants.

Agreed. Furthermore, many, including myself, believe that a major motivation behind the barbaric pogrom was to elicit an overreaction from Israel and disrupt discussions around the Abraham Accords.

Unless a way can be found in which both Israel and Palestine have a home to call their own, I fear for the future. I don't want to take sides in this -- taking sides is always the first step to further agression.

I will "take sides" against Hamas any day of the week.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I am aware of that. But think, many Muslim countries have come to terms with Israel. Egypt, for starters, Oman, UAE and others. They used to be bitter enemies, and they have been trying hard to broker a peace between Israel and Hamas -- unsuccessfully so far.

One of my many fears about this conflict is that Israel could wind up losing those countries' confidence again, and that has nowhere to go but a Middle East conflagration that nobody wants.

Please note that the vast majority of Arabs have never had confidence in Israel; the peace treaties have exclusively been either due to practical considerations (e.g., the treaty between Egypt and Israel after both countries decided that further war would benefit neither at that time) or due to dictatorial regimes' signing such treaties, in some cases partially or mostly to appease the US and Israel's other allies, without any input from the people (e.g., the so-called "Abraham Accords," which most Arabs probably wouldn't hesitate to tear up and toss in a trash can amid Israel's current massacres and atrocities against Palestinians).

The founding of Israel in 1948 extensively involved ethnic cleansing, massacres against civilians, and the anti-Arab, racist terrorism of the likes of Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin, all of which were exemplified in the events of the Nakba. Israel hasn't reformed its policies or acknowledged its grave historical and present mistreatment of Palestinians, so any normalization of relations before then is not or would not be a product of genuine peace between Israel and the people of neighboring Arab countries. The average Arab has no interest in normalizing relations before reform or acting as if reform had already happened, even if certain dictatorial regimes have sometimes tried to pretend otherwise.

For most of us, the IDF's atrocities in Gaza are not out of character or new; they are an extension—and an especially rabid one—of the same policies that have been in place in various forms for 75 years.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I will "take sides" against Hamas any day of the week.

Against Hamas, so will I. They are a Terrorist organization. The problem is that those being most severely punished are Palestinians who are not Hamas, who, besides not being protected by Hamas are often enough used as human shields by Hamas. That is why I tried to state clearly that I didn't want to take sides between Israelis and Palestinians -- not between Netanyahu and his hard-line war cabinet and Hamas.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Please note that the vast majority of Arabs have never had confidence in Israel; the peace treaties have exclusively been either due to practical considerations (e.g., the treat between Egypt and Israel after both countries decided that further war would benefit neither at that time) or due to dictatorial regimes' signing such treaties, in some cases partially or mostly to appease the US and Israel's other allies, without any input from the people (e.g., the so-called "Abraham Accords," which most Arabs probably wouldn't hesitate to tear up and toss in a trash can amid Israel's current massacres and atrocities against Palestinians).

The founding of Israel in 1948 extensively involved ethnic cleansing, massacres against civilians, and the anti-Arab, racist terrorism of the likes of Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin, all of which were exemplified in the events of the Nakba. Israel hasn't reformed its policies or acknowledged its grave historical and present mistreatment of Palestinians, so any normalization of relations before then is not or would not be a product of genuine peace between Israel and the people of neighboring Arab countries. The average Arab has no interest in normalizing relations before reform or acting as if reform had already happened, even if certain dictatorial regimes have sometimes tried to pretend otherwise.

For most of us, the IDF's atrocities in Gaza are not out of character or new; they are an extension—and an especially rabid one—of the same policies that have been in place in various forms for 75 years.

As someone 6 weeks older than Israel (!) I am aware of all of that. But then again, I'm aware of all sorts of atrocities committed by one group or another, all over the world -- for example the treatment of our aboriginal people's by Europeans coming to Canada and the United States. I do not suppose for an instant that everything will be made better by simply taking sides with our First Nations and demanding that the invaders -- everybody with no trace of native blood -- go away.

Look, I'm not trying to be flippant -- but I don't think anything ever truly gets resolved by focusing on the past. Most of the people you mention, for example, are dead now. If we insist on holding today's generation of Israeli's guilty of their crimes, what progress can ever be made?

 

[Debater Slayer]

As someone 6 weeks older than Israel (!) I am aware of all of that. But then again, I'm aware of all sorts of atrocities committed by one group or another, all over the world -- for example the treatment of our aboriginal people's by Europeans coming to Canada and the United States. I do not suppose for an instant that everything will be made better by simply taking sides with our First Nations and demanding that the invaders -- everybody with no trace of native blood -- go away.

Look, I'm not trying to be flippant -- but I don't think anything ever truly gets resolved by focusing on the past. Most of the people you mention, for example, are dead now. If we insist on holding today's generation of Israeli's guilty of their crimes, what progress can ever be made?

I support a two-state solution, so my points have nothing to do with anyone's going away. They're also not about holding one generation guilty of the crimes of a previous generation but rather about current policies and how they show no signs of reform or improvement over past ones. There is no acknowledgement of how these policies, many of which have lasted for decades in one form or another, have affected millions of people, no initiative for peace, and no indication of a push in that direction. I hold out some hope and don't want to become cynical, but at this point, I doubt we'll see genuine, long-term peace and a robust two-state solution in my lifetime—but I would love for my doubt to be proven wrong.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I support a two-state solution, so my points have nothing to do with anyone's going away. They're also not about holding one generation guilty of the crimes of a previous generation but rather about current policies and how they show no signs of reform or improvement over past ones. There is no acknowledgement of how these policies, many of which have lasted for decades in one form or another, have affected millions of people, no initiative for peace, and no indication of a push in that direction. I hold out some hope and don't want to become cynical, but at this point, I doubt we'll see genuine, long-term peace and a robust two-state solution in my lifetime—but I would love for my doubt to be proven wrong.

Well, on all of that, I agree.

 

[Laniakea]

Are you advocating that Israel kill civilians?

If those civilians are holding an AK47 and shooting at Israeli troops, or holding hostages in a tunnel, then yes.

 

[metis]

But think, many Muslim countries have come to terms with Israel. Egypt, for starters, Oman, UAE and others.

But Iran is of a different mold as we have repeatedly and painfully seen.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

But Iran is of a different mold as we have repeatedly and painfully seen.

Iran is an outlier in every way I can think of.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I believe a few points need to be said:

1.Hamas well knew what it was doing on 10-7 and how Israel would react.

2.Hamas talks peace but has kept sending rockets into Israel that are clearly not of a defensive nature. with the last barrage that I'm aware of being about 3 weeks ago.

3.If Hamas really wanted peace and to protect their own people, they would surrender and seek refuge elsewhere.

4.The real culprit here is Iran, which supplies Hamas with weaponry and finances. With Iran, this is a holy war, and Hamas is just one of their proxies.

There are some more points to be made, but I'll stop here.

People also just like to ignore what it says in Hamas's Charter. I hope some people after reading it a couple hundred times it might just sink in.

 

[Laniakea]

People also just like to ignore what it says in Hamas's Charter. I hope some people after reading it a couple hundred times it might just sink in.

The children in Gaza schools are no doubt required to do just that.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If those civilians are holding an AK47 and shooting at Israeli troops, or holding hostages in a tunnel, then yes.

Do you know what a civilian is? Because it sounds like you don't know what a civilian is.

 

[Laniakea]

Do you know what a civilian is? Because it sounds like you don't know what a civilian is.

Oh please, do give me the Hamas definition of what a civilian is!

 

[metis]

I just saw a survey on CNN that says slightly over half of the Palestinians living in the West Bank would rather have Hamas than the Palestinian Authority for their government.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I just saw a survey on CNN that says slightly over half of the Palestinians living in the West Bank would rather have Hamas than the Palestinian Authority for their government.

It is understandable that, for some, Hamas is cathartic.

 

[Revoltingest]

It is understandable that, for some, Hamas is cathartic.

I don't think so.
A case of....
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Israel is the deadly enemy.
Only Hamas fights them on any scale.

 

[InChrist]

Really, do I need to condemn what Hamas has done before I can highlight the continuing war crimes by Israel? Good grief.

I think Hamas needs continuing condemnation, because Hamas is not done doing what they do.