The War on Christmas

[sojourner]

Or maybe, just maybe, it started out because the semester was coming to an end, and because it was winter time and difficult for children to get to school right in the midst of all of the snow storms, and lo and behold! Christmas! What a coincidence! But it's so true--there is no proof that it started BECAUSE of Christmas. It probably obtained the name Christmas break after a while because Christmas fell right there.

Traditionally, everything has closed for Christmas. Why on earth would school be an exception? "Holiday" is derived from "holy day," on which people did not work. it's obvious, if we're being honest with ourselves. Perhaps the impetus has changed in post-modernity, but that doesn't change the fact of why the break happened to begin with. People were taking a break on Christmas long before there were schools.

I'm on Winter Break right now. My finals are over and I don't start up a new semester until January. MAYBE WINTER BREAK STARTED WITH COLLEGE STUDENTS WHO ACTUALLY GET A BREAK BETWEEN SEMESTERS AND TRICKLED DOWN TO HIGH SCHOOL AND ELEMENTARY. Maybe.

That has changed, too. When my grandfather went to college, the colleges ended the fall semester after Christmas break.

Because Thanksgiving is a holiday to be thankful, specifically, for all that one has. It is an American founded holiday. It has nothing to do with religion. And therefore cannot come up properly in a religious debate. Am I right?

See Wikipedia article, "Thanksgiving (United States). In it, you will see sections on both George Washington and Lincoln, mandating a public celebration of giving thanks to God. (paraphrased)

I'm not saying that you are ignorant to believe this. I'm not saying that you're even wrong. But what you're doing right here is telling everyone on this thread, without a single care to what they believe in, that of course Christmas is truth! Of course it is! Because Jesus was obviously born on Christmas! And Jesus is the ultimate truth.

I'm not forcing anything down anyone's throat. I'm stating what is truth to the folks who invented Christmas to begin with. And I never, ever said that Jesus was "obviously born on Christmas." We know that to be untrue. But I invite folks to believe what they believe. I've said before that if a Pagan want to celebrate the equinox, go right ahead! And Jews are free to celebrate Hanukkah.

Alright. Give me some hard proof, some actually researched hard proof that the break started because of Christmas. If you can do that, with sources and everything, then I will believe you.

But until that time I suggest that you stop trying to pretend like you know everything. Did you make the school system here in the US? Are you the one who invented "Christmas Break"? That's the only way I'll take your word 100%.

Not going to waste my time documenting the obvious. See my first response at the top of this particular post.

 

[sojourner]

Then why do the Jewish kids get out early?

For Hanukkah. They don't celebrate Christmas. They celebrate hanukkah. It has always been the policy of the govt to give students time off for sincerely-held religious observances. The fact that we call it "Christmas break" derives from the fact that Xy is much more ubiquitous in American culture and society than Judaism. Had we been primarily Jewish, I'm sure we would call it "Hanukkah break."

I don't understand why you're making such a big deal about this.

Because 1) I want us to be honest with ourselves and 2) calling it what it is is not politically-incorrect. There's nothing wrong with the schools letting students out to celebrate a religious holiday embraced by the religion that enjoys the following of the majority of religious folk in this country. Whether we like it or not (and I don't think that American is a "Christian nation"), Christianity is woven into the very fabric of our culture. And there's nothing wrong with that, either. Christmas is an inherently Christian holiday that has manifested itself in our culture. Why not just be honest about what it is, call it what it is, treat it like what it is, and not try to say that it's something different?

It's a big deal because we're all being dishonest. True, atheists and those of other faiths can participate in some aspects of the celebration. And they do! And if they want to supply different meanings, that's great. But Christmas is Christmas (whatever it means). It isn't "the holidays." It isn't "Winter break." In a misplaced attempt to deviod any public act of any religious overtone, we're culturally changing what Christmas "is." It's not an "American Tradition." It's a Christian celebration, in which most of the country participates on some level. Why are we teaching our children that Christmas is politically incorrect in school?

 

[sojourner]

[te=sojourner;1818560]We're not talking about what season it happens to be when the break happens. We're talking about the reason for the break, itself. The reason for the break is Christmas. Always has been. Had Christmas fallen on June 15, we'd break for Christmas then. And I doubt very much we'd call it "winter break."

Remember we have spring break and then remember the so called "Summer break" which really for many students starts in what is still the "Spring"...Since summer begins when?....Isn't it June 21?.....Then it would be Spring/Summer break...Maybe grounds for another discussion on "Give me a break"....June 15 still would not be summer break right?[/quote]
Look, if schools want to have a winter break, that's their business. But I still hold that the schedule followed the holiday, and that the holiday is the real reason for the break. We have a summer break, literally so that kids could take time to help out on the farms -- not because "the semester ended there." I suppose we really ought to call it "farm break," except that helping out on the farm is not a sincerely-held religious celebration.

 

[Amill]

I'm not forcing anything down anyone's throat. I'm stating what is truth to the folks who invented Christmas to begin with. And I never, ever said that Jesus was "obviously born on Christmas." We know that to be untrue. But I invite folks to believe what they believe. I've said before that if a Pagan want to celebrate the equinox, go right ahead! And Jews are free to celebrate Hanukkah.

While I understand your questioning of why it needed to be changed, I don't know why you care that it was changed after the fact. "I care that it was changed because....because... I don't like change!" You've given a reason for why maybe we didn't need to change it, but you haven't exactly given a reason for why you dislike the break being recognized as winter break now instead of Christmas break. The break isn't just for Christmas anymore, so why do you care that it is recognized with a different name? You care because it's origin may have been solely for Christmas? Things change, why does it matter to you? The holiday may have been the reason for the break in the past, but right now it's not, so the name was changed.

 

[Storm]

For Hanukkah. They don't celebrate Christmas. They celebrate hanukkah. It has always been the policy of the govt to give students time off for sincerely-held religious observances. The fact that we call it "Christmas break" derives from the fact that Xy is much more ubiquitous in American culture and society than Judaism. Had we been primarily Jewish, I'm sure we would call it "Hanukkah break."

Because 1) I want us to be honest with ourselves and 2) calling it what it is is not politically-incorrect. There's nothing wrong with the schools letting students out to celebrate a religious holiday embraced by the religion that enjoys the following of the majority of religious folk in this country. Whether we like it or not (and I don't think that American is a "Christian nation"), Christianity is woven into the very fabric of our culture. And there's nothing wrong with that, either. Christmas is an inherently Christian holiday that has manifested itself in our culture. Why not just be honest about what it is, call it what it is, treat it like what it is, and not try to say that it's something different?

It's a big deal because we're all being dishonest. True, atheists and those of other faiths can participate in some aspects of the celebration. And they do! And if they want to supply different meanings, that's great. But Christmas is Christmas (whatever it means). It isn't "the holidays." It isn't "Winter break." In a misplaced attempt to deviod any public act of any religious overtone, we're culturally changing what Christmas "is." It's not an "American Tradition." It's a Christian celebration, in which most of the country participates on some level. Why are we teaching our children that Christmas is politically incorrect in school?

I don't think we are. I think we're teaching them that it's better to be inclusive. Making room for Hanukkah and Yule and Kwanzaa doesn't mean marginalizing Cristmas.

Now, if you were talking about "Winter/ Holiday trees" or something like that, I'd agree with you. While I can see A legitimate argument for it, it's stupid.

However, I don't see moving past Christian dominance as a bad thing.

 

[Charity]

Remember we have spring break and then remember the so called "Summer break" which really for many students starts in what is still the "Spring"...Since summer begins when?....Isn't it June 21?.....Then it would be Spring/Summer break...Maybe grounds for another discussion on "Give me a break"....June 15 still would not be summer break right?

Look, if schools want to have a winter break, that's their business. But I still hold that the schedule followed the holiday, and that the holiday is the real reason for the break. We have a summer break, literally so that kids could take time to help out on the farms -- not because "the semester ended there." I suppose we really ought to call it "farm break," except that helping out on the farm is not a sincerely-held religious celebration.[/quote]
Maybe "farm break" would be a religious holiday if all the workers actually worked "religiously"............

 

[sojourner]

While I understand your questioning of why it needed to be changed, I don't know why you care that it was changed after the fact. "I care that it was changed because....because... I don't like change!" You've given a reason for why maybe we didn't need to change it, but you haven't exactly given a reason for why you dislike the break being recognized as winter break now instead of Christmas break. The break isn't just for Christmas anymore, so why do you care that it is recognized with a different name? You care because it's origin may have been solely for Christmas? Things change, why does it matter to you? The holiday may have been the reason for the break in the past, but right now it's not, so the name was changed.

Because the renaming is an attempt to take religion out of the equation. Once again, we are not free from religion here. We are free to observe religion here. The schools figure they can't say "Christmas" and let the kids out for a religious observance, so they call it something else. It's dishonest.

 

[sojourner]

Look, if schools want to have a winter break, that's their business. But I still hold that the schedule followed the holiday, and that the holiday is the real reason for the break. We have a summer break, literally so that kids could take time to help out on the farms -- not because "the semester ended there." I suppose we really ought to call it "farm break," except that helping out on the farm is not a sincerely-held religious celebration.

Maybe "farm break" would be a religious holiday if all the workers actually worked "religiously"............[/quote]
I don't know how this got posted to Charity's username. It's my post, and the quote at the top is mine, too. Responding to Charity's earlier post.

 

[Storm]

Because the renaming is an attempt to take religion out of the equation. Once again, we are not free from religion here. We are free to observe religion here. The schools figure they can't say "Christmas" and let the kids out for a religious observance, so they call it something else. It's dishonest.

I don't think it is, though. I think it's an attempt to be more secular in the true sense of neutrality. "Winter Break" includes all religions.

 

[sojourner]

I don't think we are. I think we're teaching them that it's better to be inclusive. Making room for Hanukkah and Yule and Kwanzaa doesn't mean marginalizing Cristmas.

Now, if you were talking about "Winter/ Holiday trees" or something like that, I'd agree with you. While I can see A legitimate argument for it, it's stupid.

However, I don't see moving past Christian dominance as a bad thing.

But we are marginalizing Christmas when we "can't say it."

I don't see moving past Christian dominance as a bad thing, either. Perhaps it would go a long way toward getting us past our entitlement. But can we please acknowledge Christmas for what it is??? There's nothing wrong with it, or with the fact that it has become part of our cultural heritage.

 

[Storm]

But we are marginalizing Christmas when we "can't say it."

But you can. You can say "merry Christmas" and call it "Christmas Break" to your heart's content. It's just that the school has to be neutral.

I don't see moving past Christian dominance as a bad thing, either. Perhaps it would go a long way toward getting us past our entitlement. But can we please acknowledge Christmas for what it is??? There's nothing wrong with it, or with the fact that it has become part of our cultural heritage.

I do agree with this.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That was the same situation behind the Iron curtain and in Nazi Germany, too...

The difference between us and Berlin is America is fueled by paranoia, Berlin had real laws to punish such actions.
People like to tell us that we can't take Bibles to school or prayer because it is "against the law" but that simply is not true.

 

[sojourner]

I don't think it is, though. I think it's an attempt to be more secular in the true sense of neutrality. "Winter Break" includes all religions.

I like your thinking, but you'll have to convince me that "inclusiveness" was the impetus and not "cover our non-religous butts."

 

[Storm]

I like your thinking, but you'll have to convince me that "inclusiveness" was the impetus and not "cover our non-religous butts."

Optimism!

 

[sojourner]

It's just that the school has to be neutral.

Neutral in what way?
Schools have to let kids out and let workers off because of religious observances. Fact is, most religious school kids and workers observe Christmas. It would be ridiculous for school to continue with that many absent. There's nothing wrong with either admitting it or doing it. Why don't they start the break earlier, so that the Jewish kids and workers can be out for Hanukkah, which falls earlier than "winter break?" Because there simply aren't enough of them to make an impact on the school.

While I really admire equality and neutrality and inclusion, it just doesn't figure here. it just is what it is.

 

[sojourner]

The difference between us and Berlin is America is fueled by paranoia, Berlin had real laws to punish such actions.
People like to tell us that we can't take Bibles to school or prayer because it is "against the law" but that simply is not true.

I don't know... I've seen some pretty real injustice perpetrated on innocent Americans recently... Not getting to graduate high school, being failed in college courses, all because "God" was mentioned in a speech or a project? Sounds pretty punishing to me!

 

[sojourner]

Optimism!

I think that may be funny. Can you elaborate?

 

[tumbleweed41]

But Christmas is Christmas (whatever it means). It isn't "the holidays." It isn't "Winter break." In a misplaced attempt to deviod any public act of any religious overtone, we're culturally changing what Christmas "is." It's not an "American Tradition." It's a Christian celebration, in which most of the country participates on some level. Why are we teaching our children that Christmas is politically incorrect in school?

1. When we say 'the holidays' we are saying so to be all inclusive. Even to a Christian, Happy Holidays includes both Christmas and New Years, not to mention Boxing Day in the UK. (Or it used to before ultra-conservatives started getting upset about a greeting that dates back to the mid 1930's)
2. For over a thousand years, we have been culturally changing what Christmas 'is". Incorporating local traditions, whether religious in nature or not. Holly and Ivy, Mistletoe, Christmas Trees, even gift giving itself is not a part of what Christmas once "was". Whether it has been the incorporation of pagan symbolism into the 'Cristes Maesse', or the placement the birth of Christ onto a time of pagan celebration. Cultural change has always been a part of Christmas. This is not a complaint or rant, just a fact. I accept it and embrace the traditions that are handed down, and the new traditions to come.
3. As for teaching our children that Christmas is politically incorrect in school, I have yet to run across this in our local schools. But if you are inferring that calling the coming break a 'Winter' or 'Holiday' break is teaching our kids that Christmas is politically incorrect, you are making a stretch. Again, things change culturally. They always have, and they always will. Calling the break 'Winter' or 'Holiday' in no way makes Christmas politically incorrect, any more than calling it Christmas Break makes Hanukkah politically incorrect.

 

[gnomon]

Have you heard of the "Advent Conspiracy"? Bill O'Reilly and other defenders of a real Jesus centered Christmas bemoans the people going around and saying "Happy Holiday" instead of "Marry Christmas" as a greeting during the month of Dec. They also want church people to stop being part of the $450 billion 'present' giving and give a lot more to the church so the pastors will have more money to build bigger and better religious complexes. Many of these pastors wages are set up on a percentage of the church income so what helps God's money also helps the pastors income.
Anyone want to comment?:cold:

My first thought on the overall issue of the "war on Christmas", complaining about Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, including every other tradition currently in other cultures, digging up older traditions from other cultures and assimilating them.....

I work in retail services. I have many more concerns than mere words and childs play.

But for the record, Christmas in America was pretty much secular from the get go. Also, has it never occurred to anyone that Christmas stayed around not so much because some officials decided to placate the pagans but that the pagans who became Christians KEPT their traditions. People tend to change their culture themselves. That's just one of the reasons why Christmas is already celebrated by people of many religions and cultures in this country. Americans have been doing that for more than 200 years. Why is it so special now?

Just saying.

As to the specific concepts of the Advent Movement. Their claim that all the money spent during this time of year providing enough clean water for the entire world human population is bunk. The most advanced military and technological nations on the planet cannot eliminate a religious zealot from Uganda much less a decent levee in New Orleans. Engineer the levee up to the right standards then start talking about some miraculous money to clean water or money to food worldwide miracle.

Now I have to go to work in the wonderful world of Christmas retail.:run:

 

[Storm]

Neutral in what way?

In the sense of not favoring any religion over another.

Schools have to let kids out and let workers off because of religious observances. Fact is, most religious school kids and workers observe Christmas. It would be ridiculous for school to continue with that many absent. There's nothing wrong with either admitting it or doing it. Why don't they start the break earlier, so that the Jewish kids and workers can be out for Hanukkah, which falls earlier than "winter break?" Because there simply aren't enough of them to make an impact on the school.

While I really admire equality and neutrality and inclusion, it just doesn't figure here. it just is what it is.

You may be right. I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt.

I think that may be funny. Can you elaborate?

As I age, (and make progress wrt my mental health), I find myself becoming more optimistic. When faced with two unprovable positions, I go with the one that makes me happier, and why not?

I much prefer to think that the schools are honoring their obligations as secular institutions than cynically covering their butts.