The War on Christmas

[sojourner]

1. When we say 'the holidays' we are saying so to be all inclusive. Even to a Christian, Happy Holidays includes both Christmas and New Years, not to mention Boxing Day in the UK. (Or it used to before ultra-conservatives started getting upset about a greeting that dates back to the mid 1930's)
2. For over a thousand years, we have been culturally changing what Christmas 'is". Incorporating local traditions, whether religious in nature or not. Holly and Ivy, Mistletoe, Christmas Trees, even gift giving itself is not a part of what Christmas once "was". Whether it has been the incorporation of pagan symbolism into the 'Cristes Maesse', or the placement the birth of Christ onto a time of pagan celebration. Cultural change has always been a part of Christmas. This is not a complaint or rant, just a fact. I accept it and embrace the traditions that are handed down, and the new traditions to come.
3. As for teaching our children that Christmas is politically incorrect in school, I have yet to run across this in our local schools. But if you are inferring that calling the coming break a 'Winter' or 'Holiday' break is teaching our kids that Christmas is politically incorrect, you are making a stretch. Again, things change culturally. They always have, and they always will. Calling the break 'Winter' or 'Holiday' in no way makes Christmas politically incorrect, any more than calling it Christmas Break makes Hanukkah politically incorrect.

Christmas is a completely different entity from New Year's. To lump them together is to fundamentally change and diminish what Christmas is, to the Christian.

I'm not decrying the change of tradition. I'm decrying is the removal of religious meaning. That fundamentally changes what Christmas is, as well.

Isn't that what's going on? That schools feel that they are prohibited from sanctioning religious observances?

 

[Amill]

Christmas is a completely different entity from New Year's. To lump them together is to fundamentally change and diminish what Christmas is, to the Christian.

I'm not decrying the change of tradition. I'm decrying is the removal of religious meaning. That fundamentally changes what Christmas is, as well.

Isn't that what's going on? That schools feel that they are prohibited from sanctioning religious observances?

How could it diminish the value of Christmas to a Christian? How does it change what Christmas is?

 

[andys]

What people, like Soujourner, stubbornly resist acknowledging, is the well known FACT that the (so-called) birth of Christ was deliberately assigned to coincide at the time of the well established Yuletide Celebration. The Yuletide was a 12-day celebration enjoyed all over the world, originating thousands of years prior to any Jesus birth. Therefore, this Christ's birthday is certainly, factually, not the reason for this wonderful celebration with all its delightful traditions and symbolism.

Indeed the birth date of this Christ god, as Dec. 25, was not generally accepted for nearly 5 centuries after his so-called death.

In less than 4 or 5 minutes, anyone can verify that Christmas is just riding on the coattails of a beautiful preexisting celebration of the Winter Solstice. Therefore, those who want Winter Break to be called "Christmas Break" are betraying themselves by revealing their ignorance. The time it will take you to write a post to challenge my facts, would be better spent researching the matter. Then, you will have saved yourself from further embarrassment and become that much more enlightened.

I enjoy a debate when a topic is challenging, but it is tedious and pointless to engage in a debate about something which is an established fact.

 

[Storm]

What people, like Soujourner, stubbornly resist acknowledging, is the well known FACT that the (so-called) birth of Christ was deliberately assigned to coincide at the time of the well established Yuletide Celebration. The Yuletide was a 12-day celebration enjoyed all over the world, originating thousands of years prior to any Jesus birth. Therefore, this Christ's birthday is certainly, factually, not the reason for this wonderful celebration with all its delightful traditions and symbolism.

Indeed the birth date of this Christ god, as Dec. 25, was not generally accepted for nearly 5 centuries after his so-called death.

In less than 4 or 5 minutes, anyone can verify that Christmas is just riding on the coattails of a beautiful preexisting celebration of the Winter Solstice. Therefore, those who want Winter Break to be called "Christmas Break" are betraying themselves by revealing their ignorance. The time it will take you to write a post to challenge my facts, would be better spent researching the matter. Then, you will have saved yourself from further embarrassment and become that much more enlightened.

I enjoy a debate when a topic is challenging, but it is tedious and pointless to engage in a debate about something which is an established fact.

I'm well aware of all of that, and I don't think it matters.

What's important, is taking the time to honor someone you find worthy.

 

[Metalic Wings]

Christmas is a completely different entity from New Year's. To lump them together is to fundamentally change and diminish what Christmas is, to the Christian.

I think what he was more trying to say was "Happy Holidays" includes both. Not because New Year's is religious, but because it is a holiday at the same time of year.

I'm not decrying the change of tradition. I'm decrying is the removal of religious meaning. That fundamentally changes what Christmas is, as well.

So Christmas has no more religious value any more because the schools refuse to call the break in their schooling period "Christmas Break"?

I don't think that's what is really happening. I think the schools are trying to acknowledge that not all Americans are Christian. The school isn't telling the children that they can't celebrate Christmas. Hell, they don't even try to tell the kids what to believe (as far as religion goes) in the first place!

I really feel like you are taking offense to the school system that is really just trying to do what is best for our day and age. Is Christmas ruined because we're on Winter Break? What's in a name? A break by any other name would sound as sweet.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't know... I've seen some pretty real injustice perpetrated on innocent Americans recently... Not getting to graduate high school, being failed in college courses, all because "God" was mentioned in a speech or a project? Sounds pretty punishing to me!

And there are plenty of legal groups that will fight such cases, and some groups that even pick up the bill for acts of religious discrimination.

 

[andys]

Metalic Wings / Sojourner
Sojourner simply doesn't understand the utmost need for Separation of Church and State.
He asks silly questions like, "Isn't that what's going on? That schools feel that they are prohibited from sanctioning religious observances?" Clearly he fails to appreciate that schools (State) are compelled to uphold the wisdom of your enviable Constitution and keep the stink of religion out, where it does not belong. Like any State institution, public schools have no power nor right to be affiliated with any religion. Period. That is why prayer in school, Intelligent Design, and other religious intrusions are not allowed to desecrate these hallowed halls.

 

[Metalic Wings]

Metalic Wings / Sojourner
Sojourner simply doesn't understand the utmost need for Separation of Church and State.
He asks silly questions like, "Isn't that what's going on? That schools feel that they are prohibited from sanctioning religious observances?" Clearly he fails to appreciate that schools (State) are compelled, to uphold the wisdom of your enviable Constitution, and keep the stink of religion out where it does not belong. Like any State institution, public schools have no power nor right to be affiliated with any religion. Period. That is why prayer in school, Intelligent Design, and other religious intrusions are not allowed to desecrate these hallowed halls.

Well, to be honest I fail to understand why this post was addressed to me.

BUt I will say that I don't find phrases like "the stink of religion" to be very flattering. You have your opinion. I have mine.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is why prayer in school, Intelligent Design, and other religious intrusions are not allowed to desecrate these hallowed halls.

But individual students, and student groups are allowed to pray in school. If a student group wants to tell it's members about ID, that is there legal right. However, the schools themselves cannot lead in prayer, teach of ID, or be affiliated with religion. The rule is they allow one, they must allow them all. If then ban one, they have to ban them all.

 

[sojourner]

How could it diminish the value of Christmas to a Christian? How does it change what Christmas is?

Because to suggest that Christmas is part and parcel of some irreligious "the holidays" demeans the religious nature of Christmas. Holiday -- "holy day" -- suggests that the day is separate from other days, for a specific reason. Therefore, there is no "the holidays," since they are not, by definition, one entity, but several individual entities, celebrated for vastly different reasons.

 

[Storm]

Because to suggest that Christmas is part and parcel of some irreligious "the holidays" demeans the religious nature of Christmas. Holiday -- "holy day" -- suggests that the day is separate from other days, for a specific reason. Therefore, there is no "the holidays," since they are not, by definition, one entity, but several individual entities, celebrated for vastly different reasons.

*wonders what Sojourner will make of her own traditions*

 

[andys]

Shadow Wolf,
Obviously individuals can express any loony ideas they want—among each other, in or out of a public building.
I am just reminding others on this forum that, in your free country, you citizens enjoy, as a Constitutional right, not to be exposed to religious intrusions and propaganda, such as nativity scenes, crucifixes, prayer, and the like.

In reality, I witness all sorts of infractions every night I watch your American (USA) news. Citizens and politicians are sworn in on the Bible, "In God We Trust'' appears in your courtrooms, "In God is our trust" is sung in your national anthem, "under God" appears in your Pledge of Allegiance, and so on.

There are more insidious infractions to your Church-State separation: Being Christian is an unwritten prerequisite to run for office; churches can participate in political campaigns all they want, while being tax exempt; certain zoning restrictions are waived to accommodate churches to be built in residential areas, etc.

Is yours one nation under God or one nation under religious freedom? The two aren't compatible. And I think this is the real issue we are talking about in this little thread.

 

[dogsgod]

No, it isn't. The break has always been due to Christmas. If it were due to winter, the break would last a quarter of the calendar year. If some don't celebrate Christmas, then that's too bad for them!

The break has always been due to the winter solstice, that's why Christmas is celebrated when it is. In Canada people celebrate this time of year in different ways, it's not "too bad for them" because it's by their own choosing how they wish to celebrate, and of course, not everyone is Christian.

 

[sojourner]

What people, like Soujourner, stubbornly resist acknowledging, is the well known FACT that the (so-called) birth of Christ was deliberately assigned to coincide at the time of the well established Yuletide Celebration. The Yuletide was a 12-day celebration enjoyed all over the world, originating thousands of years prior to any Jesus birth. Therefore, this Christ's birthday is certainly, factually, not the reason for this wonderful celebration with all its delightful traditions and symbolism.

What people like Andys stubbornly resist acknowledging is that Christmas is celebrated on Dec. 25, not the same day as the Solstice. Further, the day was intentionally selected by former Pagans, to give new meaning to the holiday, celebrating the new truth they had discovered. Christmas has never replaced the Pagan counterpart.

In less than 4 or 5 minutes, anyone can verify that Christmas is just riding on the coattails of a beautiful preexisting celebration of the Winter Solstice.

In less than 4 or 5 minutes, anyone can verify that Christmas exists alongside a beautiful, preexisting celebration of the Winter Solstice.

Therefore, those who want Winter Break to be called "Christmas Break" are betraying themselves by revealing their ignorance.

In the USA, Xy is the preeminent religion, celebrated by the majority of the religious populace, and it's holiday, Christmas, has been woven into the very fabric of American culture, in much the same way as we universally measure dates (A.D. and B.C.)
Therefore, those who want Christmas Break to be called Winter Break are betraying themselves by revealing their ignorance.

The time it will take you to write a post to challenge my facts, would be better spent researching the matter. Then, you will have saved yourself from further embarrassment and become that much more enlightened.

I've taken at least four graduate courses in church history. Perhaps your own time would be better spent in such endeavors, that you might save yourself from further embarrassment, and become that much more enlightened.

I enjoy a debate when a topic is challenging, but it is tedious and pointless to engage in a debate about something which is an established fact.

Well, now, apparently it's not so "established" a "fact" as you've led us to think. Christmas hasn't replaced anything. I've always maintained that if folks want to celebrate the Solstice after the manner of Paganism, they're perfectly welcome to do so.

 

[Arlanbb]

Shadow Wolf,
Obviously individuals can express any loony ideas they want—among each other, in or out of a public building.
I am just reminding others on this forum that, in your free country, you citizens enjoy, as a Constitutional right, not to be exposed to religious intrusions and propaganda, such as nativity scenes, crucifixes, prayer, and the like.

In reality, I witness all sorts of infractions every night I watch your American (USA) news. Citizens and politicians are sworn in on the Bible, "In God We Trust'' appears in your courtrooms, "In God is our trust" is sung in your national anthem, "under God" appears in your Pledge of Allegiance, and so on.

There are more insidious infractions to your Church-State separation: Being Christian is an unwritten prerequisite to run for office; churches can participate in political campaigns all they want, while being tax exempt; certain zoning restrictions are waived to accommodate churches to be built in residential areas, etc.

Is yours one nation under God or one nation under religious freedom? The two aren't compatible. And I think this is the real issue we are talking about in this little thread.

Right on Wolfy:sad::sad::sad:

 

[dogsgod]

In the USA, Xy is the preeminent religion, celebrated by the majority of the religious populace, and it's holiday, Christmas, has been woven into the very fabric of American culture, in much the same way as we universally measure dates (A.D. and B.C.)
Therefore, those who want Christmas Break to be called Winter Break are betraying themselves by revealing their ignorance.

I hate to break it to you but A.D. and B.C. are not universal. What is universal is the Common Era, (CE) and Before the Common Era, (BCE).

 

[sojourner]

I think what he was more trying to say was "Happy Holidays" includes both. Not because New Year's is religious, but because it is a holiday at the same time of year.

But not of the same ilk.

So Christmas has no more religious value any more because the schools refuse to call the break in their schooling period "Christmas Break"?

One of the aspects of Christmas is celebrating it within the culture. If religion is forceably removed from the celebration, so that it cannot be celebrated with its relgious intention intact, within the milieu of the culture, yes, that fundamentally changes what Christmas is.

Hell, they don't even try to tell the kids what to believe (as far as religion goes) in the first place!

No, they just tell thim that it's inappropriate to voice that belief in the public arena.

I really feel like you are taking offense to the school system that is really just trying to do what is best for our day and age.

I don't feel it's best for our day and age.

Is Christmas ruined because we're on Winter Break?

In a sense, it is, since the meaning of the holiday is imbedded in our cultural norms.

Sojourner simply doesn't understand the utmost need for Separation of Church and State.

I do understand quite well the need for separation of Church and State. What you seem to fail to understand is that "separation" does not include "suppression."

Clearly he fails to appreciate that schools (State) are compelled to uphold the wisdom of your enviable Constitution and keep the stink of religion out, where it does not belong.

Clearly (not being a Citizen), you fail to appreciate that the wisdom of the whole separation issue was designed to keep the stink of politics out of religion, where it does not belong.

Like any State institution, public schools have no power nor right to be affiliated with any religion. Period. That is why prayer in school, Intelligent Design, and other religious intrusions are not allowed to desecrate these hallowed halls.

But that doesn't mean that they can't -- and shouldn't -- allow the expression of it within their halls. Religion was never seen as an "intrusion," but as a necessary grounding for our political arena. You have two strikes against you: 1) You're foreign. 2) You're an atheist. You're biased from two fronts and cannot see that your post is absurd, since such was never the mind set of our founders.

I am just reminding others on this forum that, in your free country, you citizens enjoy, as a Constitutional right, not to be exposed to religious intrusions and propaganda, such as nativity scenes, crucifixes, prayer, and the like.

Vomit! You have no idea what you're talking about. We citizens enjoy, as a constitutional right, the freedom to publicly display and broadcast our religion, unfettered by governmental tampering.

In reality, I witness all sorts of infractions every night I watch your American (USA) news. Citizens and politicians are sworn in on the Bible, "In God We Trust'' appears in your courtrooms, "In God is our trust" is sung in your national anthem, "under God" appears in your Pledge of Allegiance, and so on.

They're not infractions. They are welcome, and always have been. Once again, "separation" does not infer that religon cannot be expressed within (or even by) the government. All it means is that the State cannot dictate which Church, or what belief, or support a body monetarily or legislatively.

Being Christian is an unwritten prerequisite to run for office;

Huh???

churches can participate in political campaigns all they want, while being tax exempt;

No, they can't.

certain zoning restrictions are waived to accommodate churches to be built in residential areas, etc.

So?

Is yours one nation under God or one nation under religious freedom? The two aren't compatible. And I think this is the real issue we are talking about in this little thread.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

The break has always been due to the winter solstice, that's why Christmas is celebrated when it is.

You're dead wrong, and I've already explained why.

In Canada people celebrate this time of year in different ways,

Bully for you! We do here, too. So what?

 

[sojourner]

I hate to break it to you but A.D. and B.C. are not universal. What is universal is the Common Era, (CE) and Before the Common Era, (BCE).

Yes, I know. However, it is still reckoned the same way.

 

[Metalic Wings]

I was really thinking that maybe I should just learn to keep my fingers held and not say anything more--we're at the point where we're just arguing and not going to make any impact on the other person. However I do have something to say. Again, I highlight that it's my opinion, but I still feel the need to say it. (MW loses fight to self).

One of the aspects of Christmas is celebrating it within the culture. If religion is forceably removed from the celebration, so that it cannot be celebrated with its relgious intention intact, within the milieu of the culture, yes, that fundamentally changes what Christmas is.

Listen, I hear what you're saying. I agree that if Christians are told that they cannot celebrate Xmas in a religious fashion then it is obviously taking away the main reason for the Christian celebration.

IMO all the school system is trying to do is say "We understand that not everyone celebrates Xmas. We understand that it is a long, long tradition to have a winter break." If you call it Xmas break then it really does just seem like the schools are trying to say that it's only there because of Xmas and really that anyone who doesn't celebrate the holiday are WRONG.

What I see is the school saying "We're keeping our hands out of this." I don't understand how that is the school system telling little Christian children that they shouldn't proclaim their religion. I know I can't change your mind, but that's how I feel.

No, they just tell thim that it's inappropriate to voice that belief in the public arena.

Again, I don't think they ARE telling them it is inappropriate to voice that belief. My little sister is making an ornament for our Xmas tree in art class. She's in elementary school. How is that the school telling her that she can't celebrate her religious holiday?

Are children not allowed to celebrate Xmas because the break isn't specifically named after it? I never realized that the Christian religion depends so strongly on other people acknowledging its existence and giving it permission to continue as it does.

I don't feel it's best for our day and age.

I understand this. I do feel that the schools are at least trying.

In a sense, it is, since the meaning of the holiday is imbedded in our cultural norms.

Our culture is constantly changing. Part of that change is inclusion and acceptance of others' beliefs. If all of the little Christian school kids could see you arguing right now, the message you would be sending to them is "This is wrong! The school is trying to tell you that you can't have a religion! Don't try to understand it, just do!" (I mean, that's how it's coming across to me--in all honesty).

 

[andys]

Sojourner, listen to yourself:
"...to suggest that Christmas is part and parcel of some irreligious 'the holidays' demeans the religious nature of Christmas."

You still don't get it. It's exactly the other way around!

To suggest that the (original) Yuletide celebration is part and parcel with some religious holy day, demeans the secular nature of the Yuletide!

Go celebrate your Jesus birthday all you want—just get your own traditions and your own date. We pagans were there first!