The War on Christmas

[Storm]

To suggest that the (original) Yuletide celebration is part and parcel with some religious holy day, demeans the secular nature of the Yuletide!

You can't demean the nonexistent.

Go celebrate your Jesus birthday all you want—just get your own traditions and your own date. We pagans were there first!

Atheism =/= paganism.

 

[andys]

Metalic Wings.' excellent reply to Sojourn:
"I never realized that the Christian religion depends so strongly on other people acknowledging its existence and giving it permission to continue as it does."

Now you're learning.

This is exactly why your wise Constitution legislates against this kind of religious fanatic 'from imposing his religion on everyone else.

 

[tumbleweed41]

I am just reminding others on this forum that, in your free country, you citizens enjoy, as a Constitutional right, not to be exposed to religious intrusions and propaganda, such as nativity scenes, crucifixes, prayer, and the like.

Wrong, our constitutional right only extends to what the Government may or may not do. It may not establish an official religion. Nor may it endorse a particular religion.

In reality, I witness all sorts of infractions every night I watch your American (USA) news. Citizens and politicians are sworn in on the Bible,

True, but it is not required by law.

"In God We Trust'' appears in your courtrooms,

True.

"In God is our trust" is sung in your national anthem,

Debatable. It appears in the fourth verse, but only the first verse is ever sung.

"under God" appears in your Pledge of Allegiance,

True.

Being Christian is an unwritten prerequisite to run for office;

Not to run, as it is specifically unlawful to require a religious test. It would be difficult to win however.

churches can participate in political campaigns all they want, while being tax exempt;

Incorrect. Churches that actively participate in political campaigns will lose their tax exempt status. I have witnessed it.

certain zoning restrictions are waived to accommodate churches to be built in residential areas, etc.

Zoning laws are set locally. It would depend on the municipality. In one local town recently, a church lost its bid to expand into an area that city planners had zoned specifically for multi-family housing.

Is yours one nation under God or one nation under religious freedom? The two aren't compatible. And I think this is the real issue we are talking about in this little thread.

It's actually a much bigger issue than this thread.

 

[Amill]

Because to suggest that Christmas is part and parcel of some irreligious "the holidays" demeans the religious nature of Christmas. Holiday -- "holy day" -- suggests that the day is separate from other days, for a specific reason. Therefore, there is no "the holidays," since they are not, by definition, one entity, but several individual entities, celebrated for vastly different reasons.

Who cares? Does it diminish the value to you? Probably not lol.... wahhh...we want Christmas to be more important than other celebrations wahhh...

Can you provide evidence that suggests Christmas's meaning has declined since the name has changed to winter break? Have people started to forget about Christmas since it's been called winter break?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Holiday -- "holy day" -- suggests that the day is separate from other days, for a specific reason. Therefore, there is no "the holidays," since they are not, by definition, one entity, but several individual entities, celebrated for vastly different reasons.

Who said anything about a holiday being a "holy day"? Martin Luther king Day, Columbus day, Veterans Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and New Years Eve/Day are just a few non-religious based holidays in America. They are all days that are set aside to celebrate something different. However, making the word holiday plural does indeed group them together. And when someone says "Happy Holidays" it can be a much simpler way of saying "Have a merry Christmas and Happy New Year."

 

[sojourner]

It's exactly the other way around!

No, it isn't.

To suggest that the (original) Yuletide celebration is part and parcel with some religious holy day, demeans the secular nature of the Yuletide!

I didn't suggest that it was. you suggested that it was.

Go celebrate your Jesus birthday all you want—just get your own traditions and your own date.

There's nothing wrong with assigning meaning to cultural icons.

We pagans were there first!

Who's "we?" I thought you were atheist. Pagans believe in gods.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Because the renaming is an attempt to take religion out of the equation. Once again, we are not free from religion here. We are free to observe religion here. The schools figure they can't say "Christmas" and let the kids out for a religious observance, so they call it something else. It's dishonest.

Since Jesus was born in the Autumn of the year, then December could not be his birth date. However, before it was labeled as Christmas it was called the Roman 'Saturnalia' which was a festival dedicated to Saturn who was the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun.
Gifts were exchanged at that time, and many decorations can be traced back to pagan religious roots.

Jesus gave only one command to remember him at Luke 22:19 which would correspond to the anniversary of the former Passover now often termed as Good Friday. 1st Corinthians 11:20, 24-26 shows the Lord's Supper would be remembered by the passing of bread and wine.

As far as birthdays neither Jesus nor the apostles celebrated that nor did those Jews of the first-century celebrate birthdays. Of the two birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible both were pagans. Herod's and an Egyptian.

Many of the old pagan holiday customs or traditions now have Christian names or labels attached to them.

 

[sojourner]

Metalic Wings.' excellent reply to Sojourn:
"I never realized that the Christian religion depends so strongly on other people acknowledging its existence and giving it permission to continue as it does."

Now you're learning.

This is exactly why your wise Constitution legislates against this kind of religious fanatic 'from imposing his religion on everyone else.

Who's the fanatic? I'm arguing for keeping a religious celebration...religious, which is protected by the Constitution. What you're doing is coming in from a foreign land, imposing your ideology upon a document that has nothing to do with you, insisting that Christmas never was sacred, and calling people names.

But I'm the fanatic.

Xy doesn't depend on other people giving it credence. But what happens is that the meaning is diminished culturally, as well as historically, when the spiritual aspect is removed, and the voices of popular values begin to outshout the spiritual voices of reconciliation, love, peace, goodwill. Those values carry meaning that can not be duplicated without the spiritual aspect. The world is losing something very precious by turning these values into something very surface.

 

[tumbleweed41]

On one side, you have the overzealous atheist, who is insulted when someone wishes him a Merry Christmas. Who refuses to have anything to do with Christmas celebrations. This is the guy who throws a fit when someone says grace at the dinner table. Who does out of his way to eliminate any religious references in everyday society that come his way.

On the other you have the uber-Christian, he is insulted by being told Happy Holidays. He throws a fit that secular stores will not put 'the Christ back in Christmas'. This is the guy who claims that God has been kicked out of the schools. Who goes out of his way to insist that Jesus is the Reason for the Season, and will push any secular or pagan references to the wayside.

I find that both of these scenarios are equally irrational and self-deceptive.

 

[sojourner]

Can you provide evidence that suggests Christmas's meaning has declined since the name has changed to winter break? Have people started to forget about Christmas since it's been called winter break?

Yes, I believe those things have happened. What sort of hope is left at Christmas, when the hope of reconciliation in the Incarnation is taken away? People care far more about shopping than they do about being reconciled with God.

 

[sojourner]

Who said anything about a holiday being a "holy day"? Martin Luther king Day, Columbus day, Veterans Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving, and New Years Eve/Day are just a few non-religious based holidays in America. They are all days that are set aside to celebrate something different. However, making the word holiday plural does indeed group them together. And when someone says "Happy Holidays" it can be a much simpler way of saying "Have a merry Christmas and Happy New Year."

Thanksgiving is a religion-based holiday. so is Christmas. In fact, that's where the word comes from: Holy day.

 

[McBell]

Yes, I believe those things have happened. What sort of hope is left at Christmas, when the hope of reconciliation in the Incarnation is taken away? People care far more about shopping than they do about being reconciled with God.

Hate to break it to you, but people cared more for shopping long before they started calling it winter break.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

What ... as opposed to the "later, fake Church?" They didn't celebrate because, culturally, 1st-century Palestinians didn't celebrate the birthdays of commoners.
Why are Pagans automatically "sinners?" Origen said "sinners," not "pagans." And Origen wasn't Catholic. According to tradition, he was Egyptian, and spent a lot of time working in Alexandria. In other words, he was more Eastern than Western.

There's no command to celebrate Easter, Thanksgiving, All Saints' Day, Pentecost, or the Transfiguration, either. So what? The Bible is not the entire compass of Xy. Celebrating the Incarnation is a Christian tradition. True, it was begun later than Christ. But arguing that "this isn't something Jesus would have done" is a red herring, in this case.

If the Bible is not the entire compass of Christianity then 2nd Timothy 3:16,17 is wrong in saying that 'all' Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction, that the man of God would be complete. Jesus believed that Scripture was religious truth- John 17:17- and that religious truth would set one free from what is religiously false..
Didn't Jesus even proclaim many 'Woes' against the false religious leaders of his day along with his reasons why at Matthew chapter 23?
( Mark 7:7; Matt 15:9).

 

[McBell]

Thanksgiving is a religion-based holiday. so is Christmas. In fact, that's where the word comes from: Holy day.

really?

What religion do you think holds some kinda monopoly on Thanksgiving?

 

[McBell]

If the Bible is not the entire compass of Christianity...

Um...

Would you please be so kind as to point out where the Bible (or any other religious text) states that the Bible is ALL scripture?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Um...

Would you please be so kind as to point out where the Bible (or any other religious text) states that the Bible is ALL scripture?

Please see 2nd Timothy 3:16,17 and Romans 15:4

 

[sojourner]

Since Jesus was born in the Autumn of the year, then December could not be his birth date.

Makes no difference to the validity of the holiday.

However, before it was labeled as Christmas it was called the Roman 'Saturnalia' which was a festival dedicated to Saturn who was the god of agriculture, and to the renewed power of the sun.

There was no "relabeling" (which is what is going on now). Christmas was a completely new holiday, begun by the Pagan converts, themselves. They now believed that Saturn was, in actuality, Jesus. Keeping the symbols that were important and meaningful to them, they assigned new meanings that were congruent with their new faith.

Jesus gave only one command to remember him at Luke 22:19 which would correspond to the anniversary of the former Passover now often termed as Good Friday. 1st Corinthians 11:20, 24-26 shows the Lord's Supper would be remembered by the passing of bread and wine.

Aside from the fact that that's not really what is believed to happen in the Eucharist, Christmas is not a "remembrance" of Jesus. It's a celebration of the Incarnation.

As far as birthdays neither Jesus nor the apostles celebrated that nor did those Jews of the first-century celebrate birthdays. Of the two birthday celebrations mentioned in the Bible both were pagans. Herod's and an Egyptian.

There's no mention of Jesus using computers, either. Shall we all just throw them away?

 

[sojourner]

On one side, you have the overzealous atheist, who is insulted when someone wishes him a Merry Christmas. Who refuses to have anything to do with Christmas celebrations. This is the guy who throws a fit when someone says grace at the dinner table. Who does out of his way to eliminate any religious references in everyday society that come his way.

On the other you have the uber-Christian, he is insulted by being told Happy Holidays. He throws a fit that secular stores will not put 'the Christ back in Christmas'. This is the guy who claims that God has been kicked out of the schools. Who goes out of his way to insist that Jesus is the Reason for the Season, and will push any secular or pagan references to the wayside.

I find that both of these scenarios are equally irrational and self-deceptive.

I agree.

 

[sojourner]

Hate to break it to you, but people cared more for shopping long before they started calling it winter break.

That's true, however, shopping has taken on a whole different importance recently.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Yes, I believe those things have happened. What sort of hope is left at Christmas, when the hope of reconciliation in the Incarnation is taken away? People care far more about shopping than they do about being reconciled with God.

I do not believe I need to be reconciled with God, nor do I feel the need to spend a fortune (as if I had that) in gifts.
But I do enjoy the Holidays. We have FAMILY traditions. On the 13th of DEC, we celebrate Santa Lucia with handmade gifts. We celebrate the entire Yule. On Christmas eve we make cookies for Santa Clause, open our annual gifts of new pajamas or robes, watch the yule log burn and drink cocoa and coffee. In the morning we watch the kids open the rest of their gifts, usually quite a few games. Then a nice dinner with friends. Every New Year we pig out on tacos (long story behind that one)

This is my Christmas. These are my Holidays. This is my Hope, that everyone can enjoy this time, in the dead of winter, with those they care about.

Merry Christmas Sojourner