The Watchmaker Revisited

[godnotgod]

Deliberate misrepresentation of events with the goal of getting money or other things of value from people.

Sure, but you would have to offer proof in the case of Hagelin and Chopra, esp Chopra. But the testimonials from actual people who have stayed at the Chopra Center say otherwise.

 

[godnotgod]

I made the mistake of taking a mouthful of iced tea just as he started talking about 7000 experts in TM to help save the world. Then they started hopping from bed to bed.

View attachment 22846

YOU OWE ME A NEW KEYBOARD!

ETA: Yes, you warned me.

So, as someone who places a great deal of importance on the scientific view, that YouTube video is convincing evidence of the fraudulent nature of 'yogic flying'?

For a long time, the medical profession gave no credence to meditation and yoga as healing techniques. Today, they are part of many hospital's programs for recovery. Therapeutic yoga is now recognized as addressing many mental illnesses, even schizophrenia, unlike drugs, which only mask the condition.

 

[exchemist]

I made the mistake of taking a mouthful of iced tea just as he started talking about 7000 experts in TM to help save the world. Then they started hopping from bed to bed.

View attachment 22846

YOU OWE ME A NEW KEYBOARD!

ETA: Yes, you warned me.

Heh heh.

 

[godnotgod]

The mystical experience is indeed a doctrine or belief system one 'follows'. People like you and Chopra and your aforementioned Yogi are 'followers of mysticism' just like Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther were followers of Christianity.

No, not at all. An experience is not a belief or doctrine; it is an experience. The mystical experience means the merging with the Universe as One, like the drop completely merging with the vast ocean. Where do you see belief or doctrine that is followed?

Yeah. Exactly the same. Chopra and company say it is so and you believe it is so.

No. I was referring to YOUR statement:

"It is labeled as "woo" because it is "woo". Your above listed practitioners are labeled as cranks because they are cranks."

which is like saying that the Bible is true because the Bible says it is so.

Whatever Chopra says, I process completely before I accept it as true. This is not about belief, but seeing things as they are.

[/QUOTE]Quantum Fields: The Real Building Blocks of the Universe - with David Tong
Do you understand the term "Building Blocks"? [/QUOTE]

OMG! What lunacy! Don't you understand that the use of the phrase 'Building Blocks' is just a manner of speech? Where are these 'Blocks' that you see?

Somehow, while you watched the video three times you missed the entire part (32:10) where he discusses in detail and at length the three (12) basic types of particles "we are made of" and "the fields that underlie them". He refers to quantum fields" as "the building blocks of the universe". As you yourself wrote: "There are no particles in the world. The basic fundamental building blocks of our Universe, are these fluid-like substances that we call 'fields'."

Do try to understand context. What does "basic fundamental building blocks" mean? What are they the building blocks of? PARTICLES!

Yes, 'particles', which, as he stated several times, DO NOT EXIST! Fluid-like substances are NOT blocks! They are fields of energy, underlying all particles, which do not exist. IOW, this material world, allegedly composed of particles, is not real. Everything you see and experience is only a manifestation of the underlying field.

Talking about the energy fields mentioned in the video, you stated...

​

-and-

​

Then what did you mean by the two above comments?

Exactly what they say. But the video did not say it; I did.

Her you go, delving deep into woo based on a twisted interpretation of science.

See above.

The vacuum is nothing; there are no particles, only fields. And yet, via our senses, the world is 'real' to us. We are being fooled. But that's OK. It's all part of the cosmic game of Hide and Seek.

Only if taken out of context. In context he clearly states that the energy fields are the building blocks of particles and goes into detail describing the particles. These building blocks (quarks, etc) are, in turn, the building blocks of atoms. Atoms, in turn, are the building blocks of you and your computer and every other material thing.

He never said that "energy fields are the building blocks of particles"; he said that they are the building blocks of The Universe. He also said that there are no particles, so how can energy fields be their building blocks? I think what you mean to say is that particles are the result of fluctuations in the field. He clearly stated that all those particles do not exist perse; that they are the result of fluctuations in their respective fields, or interactions between fields.

Thank you. That's a pretty good description of science vs. woo.

You've got 'woo woo' on the brain.

Energy as a more fundamental building block:

• You
• Atoms
• Quarks
• Energy Fields

What? How is energy a building block? IT'S A FIGURE OF SPEECH! Having said that, I will agree that energy fields are the fundamental reality for the world of forms.

• If you had been paying attention you would have noticed the lengthy, detailed discussion of particles.
• If you had been paying attention you would have heard him state "Quantum Fields are the building blocks of the universe.
• If you had been paying attention you would have noticed the title of the video is: The Real Building Blocks of the Universe

Fields are the underlying reality to the Universe, yes, but particles do not exist. Now listen to the very first question in this Q&A follow up video, in which he denies that reality is granular, ie; discrete:

Did you get the part in the first video where he describes the vacuum as nothing, but that the fields are still present, and that they are fundamental to 'particles', which do not exist? Get the connections? Material reality is an illusion.

 

[Polymath257]

Did you get the part in the first video where he describes the vacuum as nothing, but that the fields are still present, and that they are fundamental to 'particles', which do not exist? Get the connections? Material reality is an illusion.

Did you get to the part where he says that each type of field is associated with a particle? Particles *do* exist, but they are not *classical* particles. They are *quantum* particles. The fields describe the probability of detecting a particle.

 

[ecco]

Sure, but you would have to offer proof in the case of Hagelin and Chopra, esp Chopra. But the testimonials from actual people who have stayed at the Chopra Center say otherwise.

How a New Book Exposes the Dark Side of Transcendental Meditation
------
First, those people were deceived
TM teachers are trained to deceive you.
Second, those people's psychological vulnerabilities were taken advantage of

------
Yes, the Transcendental Meditation movement is a cult founded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in the late 50's.
-------

 

[ecco]

So, as someone who places a great deal of importance on the scientific view, that YouTube video is convincing evidence of the fraudulent nature of 'yogic flying'?

Where did I say the video convinced me that TM is a fraud? It didn't. I found the video to be funny along the lines of old Keystone Cops films. I also find it sad to think that some people take such nonsense seriously.

I have known for many years that TM was a fraud.

You need to be more careful in your interpretations of what is written. But then, perhaps that is part of the problem.

For a long time, the medical profession gave no credence to meditation and yoga as healing techniques. Today, they are part of many hospital's programs for recovery. Therapeutic yoga is now recognized as addressing many mental illnesses, even schizophrenia, unlike drugs, which only mask the condition.

You are comparing meditative yoga to the very expensive and mind controlling BS of TM. I have no problem with meditation. I have a lot of problems with woo. Especially when that woo is used to control people and extract money from them.

 

[ecco]

No, not at all. An experience is not a belief or doctrine; it is an experience.

Experiences lead to beliefs. Are you under the impression that beliefs just pop into your head?

Whatever Chopra says, I process completely before I accept it as true. This is not about belief, but seeing things as they are.

You do not process information carefully, you process it with a strong bias to Chopra and woo. That explains why you would think my laughing at a video was the evidence that convinced me that TM is a fraud.

 

[ecco]

OMG! What lunacy! Don't you understand that the use of the phrase 'Building Blocks' is just a manner of speech? ...
How is energy a building block? IT'S A FIGURE OF SPEECH! Having said that, I will agree that energy fields are the fundamental reality for the world of forms.
...Now listen to the very first question in this Q&A follow up video

Do you even understand that your above comments are self contradictory?

I've already addressed how you completely, and intentionally, misinterpreted and misrepresented the contents of the video.

For one thing, you repeatedly made the claim that Tong says there are no particles but failed to address why he showed charts of particles in his presentation. When you address this, then we can talk further.

 

[godnotgod]

Did you get to the part where he says that each type of field is associated with a particle? Particles *do* exist, but they are not *classical* particles. They are *quantum* particles. The fields describe the probability of detecting a particle.

Got that, but did you get the part where he describes 'particles' as 'clumps of energy'? If particles exist, why did he at least twice say that they do not exist? He is using the word 'particle' as a convention. All particles are features, or 'clumps of energy' of the field. They are, in fact, the field itself, without which there is no 'particle'. And in the second video, right off the bat, he denies that the universe is granular, or discrete.

 

[godnotgod]

How a New Book Exposes the Dark Side of Transcendental Meditation
------
First, those people were deceived
TM teachers are trained to deceive you.
Second, those people's psychological vulnerabilities were taken advantage of

------
Yes, the Transcendental Meditation movement is a cult founded by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in the late 50's.
-------

TM is associated with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. My post was about Chopra and the Chopra Center. You're a bit off here.

 

[godnotgod]

Where did I say the video convinced me that TM is a fraud? It didn't. I found the video to be funny along the lines of old Keystone Cops films. I also find it sad to think that some people take such nonsense seriously.

I have known for many years that TM was a fraud.

You need to be more careful in your interpretations of what is written. But then, perhaps that is part of the problem.

You are comparing meditative yoga to the very expensive and mind controlling BS of TM. I have no problem with meditation. I have a lot of problems with woo. Especially when that woo is used to control people and extract money from them.

You are very confused. Maybe because of all that 'woo' on your brain. I am not talking about TM; my question was about yogic flying, which you said is nonsense. If that is the case, then my question: the video is proof of it being nonsense to you? How?

 

[godnotgod]

Experiences lead to beliefs. Are you under the impression that beliefs just pop into your head?


You do not process information carefully, you process it with a strong bias to Chopra and woo. That explains why you would think my laughing at a video was the evidence that convinced me that TM is a fraud.

You're making things up. I have no preference to Chopra one way or the other. I simply mentioned him along with others as a group of scientists who have sought an alternative path to the mainstream. And once again, I am not referring to TM. YOU are. You're full of woo, which is distorting your view.

Again, I am not referring to beliefs, which are a product of the mind; I am referring only to pure experience, without thought. Beliefs can only come about via thought. There is no thought in the experience, only seeing things as they are.

If your experience is that of suddenly burning your finger on a hot stove, you don't believe that you did, you know that you did. If you have never had that experience, you may believe that it can happen, but until you have the experience, you don't know that for certain.

 

[godnotgod]

Do you even understand that your above comments are self contradictory?

I've already addressed how you completely, and intentionally, misinterpreted and misrepresented the contents of the video.

For one thing, you repeatedly made the claim that Tong says there are no particles but failed to address why he showed charts of particles in his presentation. When you address this, then we can talk further.

My claim can be verified if you watch the time frame I referenced on the video. When you do this, then we can talk further. The particles he refers to (ie standard model) are all fluctuations in the energy field. He tells us that in the video as well.

 

[Polymath257]

Got that, but did you get the part where he describes 'particles' as 'clumps of energy'? If particles exist, why did he at least twice say that they do not exist? He is using the word 'particle' as a convention. All particles are features, or 'clumps of energy' of the field. They are, in fact, the field itself, without which there is no 'particle'. And in the second video, right off the bat, he denies that the universe is granular, or discrete.

That's right. It isn't granular. But we do detect discrete particles. We never detect half an electron, for example. We never detect 2/3 of a muon. The detection is always of whole particles that have the properties defining that type of particle. And yes, the detection probability is the field.

 

[godnotgod]

That's right. It isn't granular. But we do detect discrete particles. We never detect half an electron, for example. We never detect 2/3 of a muon. The detection is always of whole particles that have the properties defining that type of particle. And yes, the detection probability is the field.

Do you agree with his statement that particles are 'clumps of energy'? At another point in the video, he describes 'particle' as a 'fluctuation of the field'. IOW, 'energy', and 'fluctuations' are not 'things' called 'particles', which is why he says that 'there are no particles'.

 

[godnotgod]

from the video:

"There are fields that underlie everything, and what we think of as 'particles', aren't really particles at all; they're waves of these fields, tied up into little bundles of energy....There are no particles in the world. The basic fundamental building blocks of our universe are these fluid-like substances that we call 'fields'."

Think about the relationship between what we call 'waves' and the ocean. We think of 'waves' as 'things'. Waves are not things; they are energy-forms in motion. But at all times they are none other than the ocean itself. IOW, waves are a total action of the Ocean, in the same way that 'particles' are a total action of their respective fields.

 

[ecco]

TM is associated with Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. My post was about Chopra and the Chopra Center. You're a bit off here.

I'm, a bit off? Have you forgotten that you posted...(my emphases)

This has happened to Amit Goswami, Roger Penrose, Deepak Chopra, John Hagelin, and many many others.

Think about it. I am with John Hagelin on this one, who equates Consciousness with The Unified Field:

To which I responded...

John Hagelin? This John Hagelin?

John Samuel Hagelin is the leader of the Transcendental Meditation movement in the United States. He is president of the Maharishi University of Management in Fairfield, Iowa, and honorary chair of its board of trustees.
WOW! I can't believe that old fraud is still around. I thought it died out after the Beatles split up.
​

Before you assert that someone is a bit off, you might want to go back and review your own posts.

 

[ecco]

Where did I say the video convinced me that TM is a fraud? It didn't. I found the video to be funny along the lines of old Keystone Cops films. I also find it sad to think that some people take such nonsense seriously.

I have known for many years that TM was a fraud.

You need to be more careful in your interpretations of what is written. But then, perhaps that is part of the problem.

You are very confused. Maybe because of all that 'woo' on your brain.

I'm confused? I have woo on my brain? You are the one who has been posting woo nonsense this entire thread.

I am not talking about TM; my question was about yogic flying, which you said is nonsense.

How can you state: "I am not talking about TM; my question was about yogic flying"?

Don't you understand that the flying yogi were in a video produced by TM? A TM video that was designed to convince people of the values of TM.

If that is the case, then my question: the video is proof of it being nonsense to you? How?

The video is not proof of TM being nonsense. I never said it was. The video is further evidence that TM is nonsense.

The video is not proof of TM being a fraud. There is a lot of other evidence to substantiate that. Some of which I posted previously.

 

[ecco]

You're making things up. I have no preference to Chopra one way or the other. I simply mentioned him along with others as a group of scientists who have sought an alternative path to the mainstream. And once again, I am not referring to TM. YOU are. You're full of woo, which is distorting your view.

You keep forgetting that you are the one who referred to John Hagelin and Chopra. For the record, neither Chopra nor Hagelin are scientists.

Again, I am not referring to beliefs, which are a product of the mind; I am referring only to pure experience, without thought. Beliefs can only come about via thought. There is no thought in the experience, only seeing things as they are.

Are you saying that you give no thought to your experience of making posts? Well, that clarifies a lot of things.

If your experience is that of suddenly burning your finger on a hot stove, you don't believe that you did, you know that you did. If you have never had that experience, you may believe that it can happen, but until you have the experience, you don't know that for certain.

No. With my uncluttered mind, I know that if I touch a hot stove, I will be burned. I also know that if I jump off a 30 story building I will die.

Perhaps you don't know for certain that if you jump off a 30 story building, you will die. If that is what you have learned from your explorations of the mind, I'd say your teachers are leading you down a dangerous path.