The Watchmaker Revisited

[ecco]

My claim can be verified if you watch the time frame I referenced on the video. When you do this, then we can talk further. The particles he refers to (ie standard model) are all fluctuations in the energy field. He tells us that in the video as well.

For one thing, you repeatedly made the claim that Tong says there are no particles but failed to address why he showed charts of particles in his presentation. When you address this, then we can talk further.

 

[ecco]

Think about the relationship between what we call 'waves' and the ocean. We think of 'waves' as 'things'. Waves are not things; they are energy-forms in motion. But at all times they are none other than the ocean itself. IOW, waves are a total action of the Ocean, in the same way that 'particles' are a total action of their respective fields.

Q: What causes waves in the oceans?
A: Particles (atoms) of air moving across particles of water.

Q: Why do particles of air move?
A: Temperature (energy level) differences.

Obviously, it's a lot more complex than that. But, you know, baby steps.

 

[godnotgod]

I'm, a bit off? Have you forgotten that you posted...(my emphases)




To which I responded...

John Hagelin? This John Hagelin?

John Samuel Hagelin is the leader of the Transcendental Meditation movement in the United States. He is president of the Maharishi University of Management in Fairfield, Iowa, and honorary chair of its board of trustees.
WOW! I can't believe that old fraud is still around. I thought it died out after the Beatles split up.
​

Before you assert that someone is a bit off, you might want to go back and review your own posts.

Sorry, you're not a bit off; you're off by a mile.

 

[godnotgod]

For one thing, you repeatedly made the claim that Tong says there are no particles but failed to address why he showed charts of particles in his presentation. When you address this, then we can talk further.

I already told you: 'particles' are the result of Quantum fluctuations, just as Tong stated in the video.

 

[godnotgod]

Q: What causes waves in the oceans?
A: Particles (atoms) of air moving across particles of water.

Q: Why do particles of air move?
A: Temperature (energy level) differences.

Obviously, it's a lot more complex than that. But, you know, baby steps.

Go ahead. Start stepping. Just watch your step.

 

[godnotgod]

You keep forgetting that you are the one who referred to John Hagelin and Chopra. For the record, neither Chopra nor Hagelin are scientists.

Chopra is a medical doctor, an endocrinologist and, without checking, a neurologist. He is also an ayurvedist. My understanding is that Hagelin is a Quantum physicist. Yes, I am the one who referred to them, along with several others as a group who have sought an alternative path to the mainstream.

Are you saying that you give no thought to your experience of making posts? Well, that clarifies a lot of things.

Of course I do, but that requires first that I see into the question at hand via insight without thought. What I give thought to is how to phrase the post once I see what the content is.

No. With my uncluttered mind, I know that if I touch a hot stove, I will be burned. I also know that if I jump off a 30 story building I will die.

Perhaps you don't know for certain that if you jump off a 30 story building, you will die. If that is what you have learned from your explorations of the mind, I'd say your teachers are leading you down a dangerous path.

My reference was to accidentally burning your finger on a hot stove. In that experience, there is no foreknowledge that it is about to occur. IOW, it is pure experience, without thought. Thought only enters in immediately AFTER the experience.

Don't be silly. You may trip and fall off a tall building and die, but that has nothing to do with knowing that you will. Such an incident is pure experience. Knowing that you are going to die comes into play after you trip and fall.

All I am saying to you is that the experience of insight is not about belief, but about what the experience is. Seeing what is, is not the same as belief about what is. Understand? Now run along.

 

[ecco]

All I am saying to you is that the experience of insight is not about belief, but about what the experience is.

the experience of insight is...about what the experience is​

Wow, that is truly profound. You must indeed be mind melding with the consciousness of the universe.

Now run along.

Nah. I'll go when I choose to go, not when a wannabe yogi tells me to.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I'm done. This is my last post on these forums. I'll let the atheists that run the place lick their wounds and gnash their teeth, I've got better things to do. As Eric Cartman would say, "Screw you guys, I'm going home."

Don't go. You've presented some good points.
But it's important to realize that Jesus' words are right-on: Satan is the ruler of this world! - John 12:31; John 14:30.
It's quite misled, filled with organized 'empty philosophies and deception'(Colossians 2:8) geared toward destroying any traces of the knowledge of Jehovah.

Even the institution of marriage is under attack in this System, simply because it was God's idea ..... I've known couples who lived together without marriage for years, but when they decided to marry, they started having more problems than ever!

From Common Descent to views on the afterlife to varied political ideologies, it's all about fomenting deception and chaos.
Jehovah's people are the last line of defense, so to speak.

But no matter what course people choose, 'death is the end for all' (Proverbs 16:25; Ecclesiastes 9:10), in this System.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Don't go. You've presented some good points.
But it's important to realize that Jesus' words are right-on: Satan is the ruler of this world! - John 12:31; John 14:30.
It's quite misled, filled with organized 'empty philosophies and deception'(Colossians 2:8) geared toward destroying any traces of the knowledge of Jehovah.

Even the institution of marriage is under attack in this System, simply because it was God's idea ..... I've known couples who lived together without marriage for years, but when they decided to marry, they started having more problems than ever!

From Common Descent to views on the afterlife to varied political ideologies, it's all about fomenting deception and chaos.
Jehovah's people are the last line of defense, so to speak.

But no matter what course people choose, 'death is the end for all' (Proverbs 16:25; Ecclesiastes 9:10), in this System.

That post was a month ago. And he was projecting again. He was the only one with wounds from his arguments. But cheer up. He may be trying to learn what science is and how it is done. Perhaps you could do the same. There is an active thread on the topic.

 

[godnotgod]

the experience of insight is...about what the experience is​

Wow, that is truly profound. You must indeed be mind melding with the consciousness of the universe.

Nah. I'll go when I choose to go, not when a wannabe yogi tells me to.

Maybe it's too simple for a simpleton. Try. Here is the E=mc2 of it:

Insight is the experience itself.

That's all, really. Seeing things as they are is not about the accumulation of facts and data which leads to factual knowledge ABOUT the world, like science is*; it is the dropping away of everything until you are left with nothing but pure insight into what is.

"Do not seek the truth;
only cease to cherish opinion"
3rd Zen Patriarch

There's nothing profound about seeing things as they are, but you want to add the overlay of the 'woo' that is a veil in your mind, keeping you from insight; keeping you locked into the machinations of the discursive mind, latching onto first this idea, and then that, making things up to fit your conceptual framework about the world.

You either see things as they are, or as they are not.

I'm not asking you to leave the thread. It's your right to stay, of course. Just get away from my door, as the discussion is fruitless. I have presented everything to you from the video and placed it right under your very nose, but you deny everything, and just want to argue from faulty premises.

*I'm not saying that science is wrong, only that it is an extremely narrow, limited, and highly conditioned view of Reality, resulting, in this case, a view of the world that is dumb and dead. A pity, really, robbing us of a rich experience. There is a source of understanding within man which intuitively knows that there is more to it than just a cold, dead scientifically analytical and clinical view of the world.

 

[Audie]

That post was a month ago. And he was projecting again. He was the only one with wounds from his arguments. But cheer up. He may be trying to learn what science is and how it is done. Perhaps you could do the same. There is an active thread on the topic.

Plus the little detail that he did not
keep his word, came right back.

 

[ecco]

Maybe it's too simple for a simpleton.

No, that's not it at all. Comments like...

Insight is the experience itself.
the experience of insight is...about what the experience is​

...are just too profound for the average person to grasp. It must take years and years of being exposed to things like TM and Chopraisms and YogiHopping and microwave magnetic fields to understand.

That's all, really. Seeing things as they are is not about the accumulation of facts and data which leads to factual knowledge ABOUT the world, like science is*; it is the dropping away of everything until you are left with nothing but pure insight into what is.

[sarcasm]Of course it is.[/sarcasm]

"Do not seek the truth;

That pretty well seems to sum up your thought process. You'd rather seek out woo than seek out scientific truth. You're doing a good job of it.

only cease to cherish opinion"

Yet on the other hand you seem to have a lot of opinions that you cherish.

3rd Zen Patriarch

Quoting 3rd Zen Patriarchs holds as much water as quoting Muhammed or Matthew. Well, actually less. They both had some grasp of reality on their side.

There's nothing profound about seeing things as they are...

I agree, so why is it so difficult for you?

, but you want to add the overlay of the 'woo' that is a veil in your mind,

You keep attributing the word "woo" to me. But I am not...

A person readily accepting supernatural, paranormal, occult, or pseudoscientific phenomena, or emotion-based beliefs and explanations. ​

... that is you as substantiated by your postings.

You either see things as they are, or as they are not.

I do see things as they are. You are the one who needs to pretend that, maybe, you are the result of a butterfly's dream.

I'm not asking you to leave the thread. It's your right to stay, of course. Just get away from my door, as the discussion is fruitless.

If you don't post to me, I will have no posts of yours to respond to.

However, I do reserve the right to make posts, for the consumption of the general public, quoting your writings. You, of course, have the same rights regarding anything I may post.

 

[Jose Fly]

Don't go. You've presented some good points.
But it's important to realize that Jesus' words are right-on: Satan is the ruler of this world! - John 12:31; John 14:30.
It's quite misled, filled with organized 'empty philosophies and deception'(Colossians 2:8) geared toward destroying any traces of the knowledge of Jehovah..

One has to wonder......if you creationists are the ones with the truth on your side, why is the consistent pattern of these debates one where you bail after a few questions? Why are creationists the ones who refuse to even click a link, let alone read a published paper? Why are creationists the ones who typically have to be educated on the basics of science?

If I were an objective observer who stumbled into these debates, just based on the behaviors of each side alone, I'd definitely figure the creationists were the ones on the wrong side. Otherwise, why all the running away and shady conduct?

 

[godnotgod]

No, that's not it at all. Comments like...

Insight is the experience itself.
the experience of insight is...about what the experience is​

...are just too profound for the average person to grasp. It must take years and years of being exposed to things like TM and Chopraisms and YogiHopping and microwave magnetic fields to understand.

It most likely would for those like yourself, who have little or no intuitive understanding. You think everything can be rationally 'explained' away. Fact is, with your huge accumulation of factual knowledge, you understand even less than you did before. But even when presented with your own scientific knowledge, you deny or twist it to mean something else. Many so called 'scientists' still cannot accept the findings of Quantum Physics, so attached are they to the materialist paradigm.

There is little hope, however, for people who are so thoroughly dense and conditioned, I am afraid.

It's not that insight being none other than the experience itself is too profound; it's that it's too simple. Why? Because most of us are still operating from the POV of the conditioned, thinking mind, rather than via direct seeing into the nature of things. Insight does not take years; it takes no time at all as the experience is immediate. When you shift the mind from the mode of thinking to that of pure insight, a change in how one sees reality occurs. But most of us cannot do this so readily, because the chatter of the thinking mind interferes with seeing. And so training is necessary in order to quiet down the discursive mind before insight can come into play.

[sarcasm]Of course it is.[/sarcasm]

So you think you can understand the true nature of Reality by thinking about it? Science has been at it for quite awhile now, and has not gained an inch in such understanding. It has knowledge based on facts and data, but no real understanding as to what those facts and data are about.

That pretty well seems to sum up your thought process. You'd rather seek out woo than seek out scientific truth. You're doing a good job of it.

What happens when you 'seek the truth'? You come face to face with the so-called 'truth' of others, like the plethora of current scientific theories about the universe. Facts are not truth, though you probably think they are.

Seeing things as they are is not woo; it is seeing things as they are. 'Woo' is something stuck in your brain.

Yet on the other hand you seem to have a lot of opinions that you cherish.

Opinions? You mean like the one you keep harping on about the alleged 'building blocks' of 'particles'? Duh!

Quoting 3rd Zen Patriarchs holds as much water as quoting Muhammed or Matthew. Well, actually less. They both had some grasp of reality on their side.

Mohammed and Matthew are about doctrinal beliefs; Ceasing to cherish opinion is the exact opposite, where there is no doctrine left to interfere with seeing things as they actually are. See how wrong you can be?

There is only one 3rd Zen Patriarch, not several. That is why he is the 3rd.

I agree, so why is it so difficult for you?

You mean like the nit-wit notion you can't let go of that Tong referred to 'building blocks of particles'? I think you need some degree of both vision and hearing correction. Making things up is not, I am afraid, 'seeing things as they are'; it is seeing them as you want them to be.

What is it about 'There are no particles in the world' that you don't understand?

You keep attributing the word "woo" to me. But I am not...

A person readily accepting supernatural, paranormal, occult, or pseudoscientific phenomena, or emotion-based beliefs and explanations. ​

... that is you as substantiated by your postings.

That is how you see me, so 'woo' is in YOUR brain, not mine. Show where I have attached to any such descriptions.

I do see things as they are. .

Sure you do. That's what the prisoners in Plato's Cave said when staring at the dancing cave wall shadows.

I have already pointed out several instances where your claim is false, and yet, in the face of it, you are in denial. We call that 'ignorance', and even 'stupidity'. You see things as you are told to see them via conditioned thought. Seeing things as they are can only be the case when the mind is completely stilled and free of all conditioning. Then, you can see science in the correct light of Reality itself, rather than trying to fit Reality into your conceptual frameworks.

If you don't post to me, I will have no posts of yours to respond to.

However, I do reserve the right to make posts, for the consumption of the general public, quoting your writings. You, of course, have the same rights regarding anything I may post.

Why don't you use your head before posting for public consumption?

 

[godnotgod]

When we see things as they are, we don't create theories about how they are. We don't create ideas about a 'maker' of the world as a reflection of our own human experiences such as a maker of a watch, or any other artifact. It becomes obvious that the world cannot have been 'made'. Once we see things as they are, which includes ourselves, there is no need to speculate. Knowing the true nature of Reality can then place our wonderful science into the correct context, that of Reality itself. We don't place Reality within the confines of descriptions of Reality, such as science, religion, or philosophy; nature is bigger than it's descriptors.

 

[Audie]

Don't go. You've presented some good points.
But it's important to realize that Jesus' words are right-on: Satan is the ruler of this world! - John 12:31; John 14:30.
It's quite misled, filled with organized 'empty philosophies and deception'(Colossians 2:8) geared toward destroying any traces of the knowledge of Jehovah.

Even the institution of marriage is under attack in this System, simply because it was God's idea ..... I've known couples who lived together without marriage for years, but when they decided to marry, they started having more problems than ever!

From Common Descent to views on the afterlife to varied political ideologies, it's all about fomenting deception and chaos.
Jehovah's people are the last line of defense, so to speak.

But no matter what course people choose, 'death is the end for all' (Proverbs 16:25; Ecclesiastes 9:10), in this System.

Hey hockey! Your pal had already gone back on his
word, before you even saw his swan song.

Why dont ya see if you can get him to come back
to his thread? Last line of defense, and all?
Honour and Truth?
Lol

 

[ecco]

You think everything can be rationally 'explained' away.

Right off the top with your first sentence you are again wrong.

I'm not at all a fan of "explaining away". I do believe that many things can be explained rationally. I also believe that irrational beliefs can and should be challenged. This includes beliefs in gods, beliefs in UFOs, beliefs in the consciousness of the cosmos and communicating with it, and any and all superstitious beliefs like the dangers of black cats crossing my path on Friday the 13th.

Many so called 'scientists' still cannot accept the findings of Quantum Physics, so attached are they to the materialist paradigm.

You seem to be confusing accepting with understanding. I think most scientists do accept the Quantum world even though it is completely counter intuitive.

Because most of us are still operating from the POV of the conditioned, thinking mind, rather than via direct seeing into the nature of things. Insight does not take years; it takes no time at all as the experience is immediate. When you shift the mind from the mode of thinking to that of pure insight, a change in how one sees reality occurs. But most of us cannot do this so readily, because the chatter of the thinking mind interferes with seeing. And so training is necessary in order to quiet down the discursive mind before insight can come into play.

You just love to expound on your woo, don't you.

So you think you can understand the true nature of Reality by thinking about it? Science has been at it for quite awhile now, and has not gained an inch in such understanding. It has knowledge based on facts and data, but no real understanding as to what those facts and data are about.

Ah, if only some mystical yogi, psychic, or internet poster could come along and enlighten us.

Facts are not truth, though you probably think they are.

What facts are not truth? Give some concrete examples.

Mohammed and Matthew are about doctrinal beliefs; Ceasing to cherish opinion is the exact opposite, where there is no doctrine left to interfere with seeing things as they actually are. See how wrong you can be?

I don't have a clue to what that paragraph of jumble is supposed to mean.

There is only one 3rd Zen Patriarch, not several. That is why he is the 3rd.

You're a little slow to pick up sarcasm.

What is it about 'There are no particles in the world' that you don't understand?

I already told you that you need to explain why, if he didn't believe particles existed, he showed charts of particles,

That is how you see me, so 'woo' is in YOUR brain, not mine. Show where I have attached to any such descriptions.

The following description of woo readily describes you...

A person readily accepting supernatural, paranormal, occult, or pseudoscientific phenomena, or emotion-based beliefs and explanations. ​

I hold no such beliefs.

Your, on the other hand: reference the 3rd Zen Patriarch; your posting a video produced by the leaders of TM; your allusion of the consciousness of the universe; ad nauseam.

I have already pointed out several instances where your claim is false, and yet, in the face of it, you are in denial. We call that 'ignorance', and even 'stupidity'.

Be specific and I'll tell you if it was out of ignorance, stupidity, or just rebuttal to another of your wooisms.

You see things as you are told to see them via conditioned thought. Seeing things as they are can only be the case when the mind is completely stilled and free of all conditioning. Then, you can see science in the correct light of Reality itself, rather than trying to fit Reality into your conceptual frameworks.

Another example of wooism.

Why don't you use your head before posting for public consumption?

I do. Based on your continuous personal attacks and name calling, you seem to be getting more and more angry. Perhaps you need to meditate to try to understand why having your views challenged make you so angry.

 

[ERLOS]

The mathematical constructs -- fields and forces and quantum particles and so on -- do work in reality. So we are able to communicate globally on an Internet forum.

No good trying to tell a quantum physicist how to interpret the electron. It's what he does all day. The fact that it's essentially a mathematical construct doesn't mean it's not a practical way of getting the phone -- with it's upward a billion transistors -- into your hand.

However I believe all scientists/physicists will agree that no-one knows what ENERGY really is? All fields/particles remain energy?

96% of the universe lies in dark matter and dark energy that physics hasn't (yet) got the handle on.

So scientists shouldn't assume they know everything. There are huge areas of 'energy' unknown. To assume the mind is created by the brain may be quote wrong, as Penronse bravely ventures.

However reasonable debate becomes silly when people with only a surface knowledge begin to argue with science experts as equals.

As it does when science experts assume they have a complete handle on all the reality of what ENERGY really might be?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The mathematical constructs -- fields and quantum particles -- work in reality. So we are on an Internet forum. No good trying to tell a quantum physicist how to interpret the electron. It's what he does all day. The fact that it's essentially a mathematical construct doesn't mean it's not a practical way of getting the phone into your hand.

However I believe all scientists will agree that no-one knows what ENERGY really is? All fields/particles remain energy?

96% of the universe lies in dark matter and dark energy that physics hasn't (yet) got the handle on.

So scientists shouldn't assume they know everything. There are huge areas of 'energy' unknown. To assume the mind is a result of the brain may be quote wrong, as Penronse bravely ventures.

However reasonable debate becomes silly when people with only a surface knowledge begin to argue with science experts as equals.

As it does when science experts assume they have a complete handle on all the reality of what ENERGY really might be?

Scientists make no assumptions about the existence or nonexistence of God. I have yet to see any say that his existence has been disproven by science. What many have is a lack of belief in gods because there is a lack of evidence for any gods. Belief should be evidence based.

 

[ERLOS]

Scientists make no assumptions about the existence or nonexistence of God. I have yet to see any say that his existence has been disproven by science. What many have is a lack of belief in gods because there is a lack of evidence for any gods. Belief should be evidence based.

Who said a word about God/s?