The witchhunt continues...

[We Never Know]

21 is a very small number and what about the other countries that have not banned transitiom for minors amd have not put the state between patient and healthcare providers?
Obviously that article is for those who believe the world revolves around America.

Maybe you should read the article..
1. Its not talking about banning transgender care.
2. Its talking negatively about how America is handling transgender care.
3. The writers are from other countries

 

[fantome profane]

Its became too political. Common sense and integrity should come into play.

Two scenarios......

This person is a FtoM and would make women uncomfortable in the women bathroom IMO..

View attachment 79715


This person is a MtoF and would make women uncomfortable in the women bathroom IMO..

View attachment 79716

Are you going to tell me that either of these people have committed a crime?

 

[Orbit]

If you're trying to protect me, and people like me, you can stop. I've never been accosted by, or even seen, a transgender person in the women's restroom.

 

[icehorse]

There's no more risk than when racial segregation was ended, and that one also had bigots needlessly trembling in fear and demanding it not happen because their baseless fears must decide policy.

Let me paraphrase what you said: Allowing men into women's restrooms is no riskier than desegregation.

Is that a fair rephrasing?

If so, that sounds like an extraordinary claim proposing a radical shift from society's current norms. I think you would need a LOT of extremely good evidence to support such an idea. Not just your feelings on the matter.

 

[icehorse]

If you're trying to protect me, and people like me, you can stop. I've never been accosted by, or even seen, a transgender person in the women's restroom.

I do not believe anyone here is claiming that transgender people are any more violent than anyone else.

 

[metis]

If you're trying to protect me, and people like me, you can stop. I've never been accosted by, or even seen, a transgender person in the women's restroom.

Ditto, and Happy Birthday!

 

[We Never Know]

Are you going to tell me that either of these people have committed a crime?

Who implied that? Oh..no one did

You were so quick to use a strawman to move the goal post the point went right over your head.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

How is my response in Post #517 not an answer to your question? I wrote:

The Cambridge Dictionary has updated its definitions of man and woman, by adding the following (rather than replacing the existing definitions):​

​

Woman: "an adult who lives and identifies as a female even though they have been born as a different sex,"​

Man: "an adult who lives and identifies as a male even though they have been born as a different sex."​

Because I asked what characteristics refer to a woman or man. When a person identifies as a woman or man what characteristics of a woman or man are they referring to? Feeling like a woman is not a characteristic of a woman, it does not describe what a man or woman is. If I identify as a cat then I can tell you what a cat is, 4 legged, has fur, are carnivores etc. Transwomen do not say what makes them a woman other than their belief thet they are.

And how are these two posts of yours NOT saying that calling a transwoman a "woman" is a lie?

If a person identifies as a woman I assume they believe they are a woman so they are not lying. If I was to say a transwoman is a woman then I would be lying because I do not believe to to be true. I think transwomen are wrong in the assertion that they are women but I do not believe they are lying. You saying a transwoman is a woman is not a lie because you believe it is true. If there are consequences for me if I stated that a transwoman is not a woman in a setting then I would be forced to tell a lie that they are women, because I do not believe they are.

 

[fantome profane]

Who implied that? Oh..no one did

I was asking a question. And yes, I am trying to figure out what your point is.

 

[Orbit]

I do not believe anyone here is claiming that transgender people are any more violent than anyone else.

I think it is the clear implication of your line of reasoning.

 

[We Never Know]

Yes, that is the most recent definition of a woman in popular usage. The interesting thing for me here is why anybody objects to this. What is it they are resisting and why? It's more than how a word is used. Likewise with this use of the word lie here. What motivates that? These are visceral reactions that suggest that the objector feels threatened or is offended. Is there any other reasonable explanation for why people behave like this? They don't seem to be language purists.

Another word that makes many bristle is transphobia, which leads to analogous semantic quibbling and etymological fallacies about what the suffix -phobia is allowed to mean. But that's what this is - an aversion to transexuals that goes beyond not dating one to a refusal to be kind or polite.

I don't think anybody minds if you never use the word woman to refer to a M-to-F transexual. It's enough to understand that others do so that you understand what they mean when they use the word that way.

Straw man. Nobody at all is arguing otherwise. For starters, it would be impossible to remove all of those Y-chromosomes from somebody born with them. You also seem to be fond of calling people whose language you don't like liars but can't actually identify a lie.

Her female psyche.

He's given you the non-biological definition more than once. "A woman is a person who identifies as a woman, a man is a person who identifies as a man."

Once, there were only guitars. They generated music through resonance. Then, guitars that made sound by sending an electronic signal from a pickup to an amplifier speaker. They were called guitars, too, but now it was necessary to add the word acoustic or electric to be clear. Likewise with the word woman. "Trans" and "biological "do that for us here. "You see those two women over there? One's a biological woman, the other a transexual woman." What does the word woman mean in that comment? Go ahead and define what that word used that way means to the speaker. Not what you mean when the use the word. I presume that you would say something more like, "See what looks like two women there? Only one is a woman" That's a different meaning of the word. It's the biological definition.

Fine with me. Why shouldn't it be OK? Are you referring to mental health issues, as in would I think you're OK? Nice avatar, by the way. Is there a story

No. Do you realize that that is a different question? Now, you're claiming to be a cat, not just feeling like one.

How's that not a definition? Did you mean not yet in widespread usage? Did you mean that that definition is tautological? If so, I disagree.

Did you mean first definition? There is no real definition if by that you mean that there is only one way the word may be used.

"

Would you believe I was a cat if I said I feel like a cat? If I said I was a cat would you believe me?

No. Do you realize that that is a different question? Now, you're claiming to be a cat, not just feeling like one"

Exactly!.. Now men are claiming to be women, not just feeling like one

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Let me paraphrase what you said: Allowing men into women's restrooms is no riskier than desegregation.

Is that a fair rephrasing?

I never said anything about letting men in the women's restroom. That's your own erroneous spin.
ONCE AGAIN! Quit putting words in my mouth!

 

[We Never Know]

I was asking a question. And yes, I am trying to figure out what your point is.

Your question is irrelevant being no one said they committed crimes.

My point is both would make women feel uncomfortable in the women's bathroom, I thought that was obvious being I already said that. .

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Ok, Just note you have never defined the characteristics of what a woman or man is. When a transgender woman says they are a woman what are they actually saying about themselves? What characteristics do they think make them a woman?

It is interesting that instead of answering my question above many people, you included, would rather insult me that answer the question.

What makes a "man" and "woman" differs widely due to the social and cultural nature of gender roles. I personally think much of the pushback against LGBTQ+ folks and the stigmatization against them has its roots in how they subvert some of traditional gender roles. It should be noted that some of the criticism against LGBTQ+ culture is how it reflects a postmodern philosophy of relativism, specifically that cultural mores don't necessarily have realistic or practical purposes.

I think some basic characteristics that seem important from my interactions with transgender folks include:

Appearance
-Traditional clothing designed for a specific gender.
-Makeup. For men in modern America, that means ANY use of makeup.
-Accessories like necklaces and earrings that were once primarily feminine.
-Shoes. High heels in particular.

Voice
-Not just pitch but how voice is used. I do not understand as much about this, there are inflections that apparently differ between men and women that are less about biology and more about social convention. I know a few folks who work really hard to change this about themselves.

Body language
-Use of hands and arms. Consider how people used to cock their hands flamboyantly to signal "That person's gay." (Because sexuality and gender has had very entwined relationships historically.)
-How a person carries themselves walking or running triggers some social responses. I spent a lot of my time hiking and trail jogging barefoot in high school and developed a kind of soft careful walk that was described as "girly." Even recently during a jogging session at my dojo someone described me as "prancing" when I jogged. I imagine this isn't uncommon with barefoot trail joggers.

Those are some of my thoughts, but there are likely a whole lot more that can be used to define "man" and "woman" in contemporary and historical American culture. These are the things I have seen transgender friends working to develop.

Note: I am not transgender. I welcome folks who are to correct me.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Maybe you should read the article..
1. Its not talking about banning transgender care.
2. Its talking negatively about how America is handling transgender care.
3. The writers are from other countries

The other countries was pointing out other countries haven't banned it.
The only thing America does differently is some states have banned it for minors and adults.
It's still a very small number and still pathetically and laughably biased because it treats America like it's the only place that lets minors transition.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Some are biological women. Some are not.

Ok, how do you determine the difference?

You wrote, "I have said many times the lie I was talking about was the lie I would tell if forced to say a transgender woman is a woman" and I responded with, "OK, and by woman, you mean biologically, right? Has that ever happened to you or anybody you know or read about? Nobody ever tried to force me to say that about themselves or anybody else." Do you think that this is an example of you being forced to say a transgender woman is a woman?

At work I must use the preferred pronouns and the student senate has passed a resolution that saying trans people are not the gender they identify with is an aggression and should be not allowed. So, it is coming. I don't care about pronouns, I will call you whatever you wish but if asked I will not say a transman is a man.

You are a biological woman if you have two X-chromosomes in your cells (red blood cells excepted; they have no nuclei or nuclear DNA). If you have a different genome but want to appear and be treated like a woman, I will call you a transgendered woman if I need to express that. You seem to keep wanting to drift back to trans women and genetic women having different DNA and anatomy. This is important to you. I don't know why. It would only matter to me if I were considering having a relationship with her. For all I know, some of my female friends are genetic males and I don't know it. It just doesn't matter when she's a bridge partner or a neighbor.

It matters because it is not true and truth matters. I don't care how you live your life as an adult, I will not hinder that at all unless it negatively affects others. Why does it matter to a trans person what I think of them as long as I treat them respectfully. I treat trans people with more respect than I am treated because of my view. I believe in maximizing freedom while protecting everyone's rights.

Thanks for that. If you're interested, my screen name is a song from Porgy and Bess about biblical skepticism, and the avatar is Grateful Dead iconography that originated on an album cover (Bear's Choice). These are often called Jerry bears.

Thanks for explaining. I am interested in how people get their names here. I did not recognize the Grateful Dead iconography. Also had to look up Porgy and Bess.

 

[fantome profane]

Your question is irrelevant being no one said they committed crimes.

My point is both would make women feel uncomfortable in the women's bathroom, I thought that was obvious being I already said that. .

Ok, I understand that. But my question is, so what? You can't ban someone from the bathroom because they "make you feel uncomfortable". And I know, you didn't say you can ban someone from the bathroom because they make you feel uncomfortable. But then I am left wondering why you are talking about people being uncomfortable.

If your point is "women would feel uncomfortable", then I am still not getting the point of your point.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

How do you know that?

Because I do not believe a transwoman is a woman. So for me to say they are would be a lie.

 

[We Never Know]

The other countries was pointing out other countries haven't banned it.
The only thing America does differently is some states have banned it for minors and adults.
It's still a very small number and still pathetically and laughably biased because it treats America like it's the only place that lets minors transition.

You seem to misunderstand. Again.. Read it...

"A group of 21 international endocrinology clinicians and researchers from nine countries signed an open letter published yesterday arguing that gender transition medicine for minors has been pushed in the United States for political reasons rather than based on medical evidence.

Every systematic review of evidence to date, including one published in the Journal of the Endocrine Society, has found the evidence for mental-health benefits of hormonal interventions for minors to be of low or very low certainty," wrote the group of endocrinologists in the letter published on Thursday in the Wall Street Journal."......

"The letter published on Thursday, however, highlights that the risks of life-long sterility and medical dependency, as well as continued mental trauma, have greater certainty than the little-supported evidence in favor of hormonal transition.

For this reason, more and more European countries and international professional organizations now recommend psychotherapy rather than hormones and surgeries as the first line of treatment for gender-dysphoric youth," wrote the international team of physicians"

 

[Father Heathen]

If you're trying to protect me, and people like me, you can stop. I've never been accosted by, or even seen, a transgender person in the women's restroom.

The notion of "protecting" the public - particularly children - is just a manipulate pretext to make their attacks appear defensive.