The witchhunt continues...

[icehorse]

You're efforts are so misguided and misplaced that instead of showing concern for things like knee surgeries you are trying to insist you know better than legions of experts (healthcare providers and researchers) when it comes to a procesure with a very small rate of regret.

The legions are having second thoughts. This is not just my opinion.

If you want to discuss knee surgeries, start a new thread and I'll be happy to debate you there

 

[icehorse]

Did they? I don't remember that. When did that happen?

So you are suggesting that trans women are raping and assaulting women in the woman's washrooms.

Are you at all concerned about trans women being raped or assaulted if they are forced to go into the men's room?

these questions have been asked and answered multiple times on this thread.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

So you test all humans you meet be checking their chromosones? Is that true as how you do it?

No, but they either are male or female no matter if I know that or not. A man is an adult human male (XY) and a woman is an adult human female (XX).

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, but they either are male or female no matter if I know that or not. A man is an adult human male (XY) and a woman is an adult human female (XX).

That is only your definition. It does not appear that you have been able to support that claim very well. I know, it bothers me at times too. What can I say, I am old. but I can still look at the research and see that there is justification for the claims of trans people and their supporters and it costs me almost nothing to acknowledge them to be what the claim to be.

You should ask yourself why that is such a problem for you. What does it make a difference?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

That is only your definition. It does not appear that you have been able to support that claim very well. I know, it bothers me at times too. What can I say, I am old. but I can still look at the research and see that there is justification for the claims of trans people and their supporters and it costs me almost nothing to acknowledge them to be what the claim to be.

You should ask yourself why that is such a problem for you. What does it make a difference?

As I have said I value truth. I believed foolish things for too long when I was a Christian because I did not know how to evaluate truth claims properly. I have supported my position with a definition and how trans people fit into that definition. I go to any science book and they still say males are XY and females are XX. It is your side that cannot provide a definition or characteristics of what a man or woman is except they tell you they are one or the other.

If I said I am (not feels like) a cat would you think that was true? No because I am not a cat and do not meet the characteristics of a cat. When a trans woman insists they are (not feels like) a woman I don't agree because they do not meet the characteristics of a woman. Lia Thomas claims she is a woman not a transwoman and not just feels like a woman but insists she is a woman for example. She may believe it but it is not true. If you think she is a woman what characteristics does she have that make you believe it?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

As I have said I value truth. I believed foolish things for too long when I was a Christian because I did not know how to evaluate truth claims properly. I have supported my position with a definition and how trans people fit into that definition. I go to any science book and they still say males are XY and females are XX. It is your side that cannot provide a definition or characteristics of what a man or woman is except they tell you they are one or the other.

If I said I am (not feels like) a cat would you think that was true? No because I am not a cat and do not meet the characteristics of a cat. When a trans woman insists they are (not feels like) a woman I don't agree because they do not meet the characteristics of a woman. Lia Thomas claims she is a woman not a transwoman and not just feels like a woman but insists she is a woman for example. She may believe it but it is not true. If you think she is a woman what characteristics does she have that make you believe it?

And once again -- in just about everything you write, you ignore mind.

First of all, for example, can you tell us (outside of cartoons) a cat that could actually say what it felt like? If you really "felt that you were a cat," you could not utter the words! Think about that!

You are fixated on genitalia being the be-all and end-all of what you is. I got a willie, I'm a man. I could be a nurse (so could she). She could be a physicist (so could I). So regarding genitalia, they do not affect the career you might pursue, your aspirations for political office (Presidents and Prime Ministers aren't always male anymore -- you might have noticed). Your genitalia don't determine whether you must act as the breadwinner or the housekeeper. These are all "social roles," and social roles are increasingly open to everyone. Yes, there are female firefighters. Yes there are male nurses. Writers, poets, playwrites, sculptors, chefs, surgeons, astronauts, mathematicians, pharmacists, family GPs, soccer players, comedians and philosophers. Every single category contains members with all the genital appurtances available.

But when it comes to gender, you cannot separate in your mind the biological from the social -- and they are different things. Remember, in human history, this was not always true. The notion of a woman voting was once deemed bizarre, and to run for public office -- well, how could she possibly dare? A woman judge? Women can't judge men -- it's an outrage before God!

But all that has changed. We've learned (or most of us have, and I'm trying to bring you along) to an understanding of human beings as an animal, descended from animals as all other life has been, which has two immensely important differences from all the ancestry that went before us, right back to (as Pooh Bah in the Mikado says), "a protoplasmal primordial atomic globule." And those differences are: our extremely advanced brain (at the cost of diminished strength and senses) and our social nature.

We humans are certainly biological -- but we are also, and more importantly social. And until you can accept that, you're not going to get anywhere in understanding human nature at all.

 

[The Hammer]

No, but they either are male or female no matter if I know that or not. A man is an adult human male (XY) and a woman is an adult human female (XX).

That's sex, not gender.

Edit: a biological sex can be culturally whatever gender they feel most comfortable presenting themselves as.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That's sex, not gender.

Edit: a biological sex can be culturally whatever gender they feel most comfortable presenting themselves as.

I would, if you forgive me, replace "culturally" with "socially."

 

[The Hammer]

I would, if you forgive me, replace "culturally" with "socially."

I understand. Culture is a fallback term for me for "society".

 

[We Never Know]

As I have said I value truth. I believed foolish things for too long when I was a Christian because I did not know how to evaluate truth claims properly. I have supported my position with a definition and how trans people fit into that definition. I go to any science book and they still say males are XY and females are XX. It is your side that cannot provide a definition or characteristics of what a man or woman is except they tell you they are one or the other.

If I said I am (not feels like) a cat would you think that was true? No because I am not a cat and do not meet the characteristics of a cat. When a trans woman insists they are (not feels like) a woman I don't agree because they do not meet the characteristics of a woman. Lia Thomas claims she is a woman not a transwoman and not just feels like a woman but insists she is a woman for example. She may believe it but it is not true. If you think she is a woman what characteristics does she have that make you believe it?

" I go to any science book and they still say males are XY and females are XX"


"Typically, biologically male individuals have one X and one Y chromosome (XY) while those who are biologically female have two X chromosomes. However, there are exceptions to this rule."

Y Chromosome

Among the 24 chromosomes that make up the human genome, the Y chromosome is unique for its highly repetitive structure. Scientists are studying the Y and its unusual features to better understand human health and disease.

www.genome.gov

 

[Kenny]

It can work both ways.

I think we should err on the side of caution

They are generally safe and often used for other reasons. Here's from the Mayo Clinic: Puberty blockers for transgender and gender-diverse youth

We aren't talking about "other reasons".

Longer treatment with puberty-delaying medication in transgender youth leads to lower bone mineral density

A longer duration of treatment with puberty-delaying medications among transgender youth is associated with lower bone mineral density, according to a new study that will be presented Sunday at ENDO 2022, the Endocrine Society’s annual meeting in Atlanta, Ga.

www.endocrine.org

The Effect of Puberty Blockers on the Accrual of Bone Mass

Suppressing puberty in children suffering from gender dysphoria — by administering Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone agonist (GnRHa) — entails several known risks. One is that patients could “end with a decreased bone density, which is associated with a high risk of osteoporosis” (Delemarre-van de...

www.segm.org

Study: Effects of puberty-blockers can last a lifetime

Data debunk a common rationale for giving kids transgender treatment

wng.org

Let's wait until they are grown

I didn't, but sometimes gave them a swat.

shame but I am guilty too.

Now you're arguing my position, so thanks for agreeing.

Not really... They erred on the side of caution. Abuse is real and they were checking it out. I'm sure you want to stop abuse.

Yes, as I'm not opposed to the FDA restrictions for just one example.

OK

Again, you clearly are using politics, not real medical sources for your conclusion on this. If you had wanted your children to not even consider looking into this both psychological and medical issue, and if you want to let the government make decisions for your children, then you can have your opinion, but I personally don't feel that government should interfere with such personal family matters unless there's an established clear & present danger.

IOW, I'm going by the science, including the consensus within the medical arena, and then trying to make sure whether they go along with my feelings of right v wrong.

No... as I noted above. This isn't political... it is about the future of our children. They have made the issue political... please don't succumb to it.

 

[Kenny]

I believe the heart of this statement is that XX is always female and Xy is always male. That is a false statement. Genetics are a single part of the equation.

False statement

Were you to, there are photographs showing two nude individuals with all the clear indications of being female. But their genetics are Xy. The point being: XX and Xy are only a part of the sex/gender equation. Saying "Xy means you are a man" skips over a bunch of other factors far more visible and thus more practical in the social realm.

And you believe everything you see?

 

[SomeRandom]

I would call this something like a "new, growing trend". It's easy enough to do an internet search.

@anna. - same for you.



I'm lost here. How is this causing trauma for normal women? How is this paranoia? thanks!

Ehhh. I wouldn’t.
I’ve spoken to actual trans individuals. I’ve yet to come across such a “trend.”
Could be more of an underground clique thing.

The internet is full of lies. When I was in school we had to first prove we understood the difference between reliable sources and one’s made by propaganda. And that was like a decade ago, at least. It’s probably worse now.


(Also I do apologise for the late reply. Had a bit of tech issues on my end)

 

[The Hammer]

False statement

Not at all. Sex and Gender are different. Sex is XY or XX. Gender is a cultural presentation of ones feelings towards their own Identity.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, but they either are male or female no matter if I know that or not. A man is an adult human male (XY) and a woman is an adult human female (XX).

So you don't actually know if a human is a male or woman, if you meet one. That doesn't make sense. Let me explain, since you use science in effect as XX and XY.
If you were given a series of photos of humans, facial ones and general frontal ones and asked to rate male and female, you could do so.

So here is the explanation you wanted from me and which explains how we humans do this.
We are born as babies and go through a devolopment where we learn to in effect internalize language as behaviour learned in different contexts.
So you hear in effect a sound - woman and you learn that the sound and later written word matches the following:
Some humans who share a set of cultural and physical external charachtaristics.

But that is not unique to a woman, you learn that for a lot of words and even some where you might never have look up the definition of a word.
So here is a short series of words as starting with:
Woman: - an adult female person.
Female: - of, relating to, or marked by qualities traditionally associated with women.
Quality - peculiar and essential character, an inherent feature, property.
Tradition: an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior (such as a religious practice or a social custom).
Associate: to join or connect together, combine, to bring together or into relationship in any of various intangible ways (as in memory or imagination).

Merriam-Webster: America's Most Trusted Dictionary

Find definitions for over 300,000 words from the most authoritative English dictionary. Continuously updated with new words and meanings.

www.merriam-webster.com

Now here is the combined version what goes on when you see a human, you treat as a woman.
You have in your brain a functional aggregate of past experinces of looks, sounds and behaviours for in effect a mental model of how to spot a female. That is not taught to you as per science and testing of chromosomes.

So the lie is that a woman is XX as such and only that. It has never been so and it is not so now. And you don't act according to what you claim a woman is.
How do I know that? Because there are humans who are different XX and XY. So in effect you have in all likelihood come across a woman, who has X0 chromosomes and thus is not a woman, yet you have treated her as a woman, because she is a woman as she meets the cultural and physical external charachtaristics we assign to humans who in effect look, sound and act like a woman.

That is the cultural big lie, namely that a woman is nothing but XX. And I don't tell that lie, I tell the truth and I use science.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

False statement

What part?

And you believe everything you see?

No.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Let me paraphrase what you said: Allowing men into women's restrooms is no riskier than desegregation. Is that a fair rephrasing? If so, that sounds like an extraordinary claim proposing a radical shift from society's current norms.

It *IS* a form of desegregation, the desegregation of the biological sexes in public bathrooms. Racial desegregation was also "risky," and there was a lot of resistance to bussing and to black people moving into formerly all-white neighborhoods. There was a joke then that desegregation referred to the period between when the first black family moved into a neighborhood and the last white family moved out. My father-in-law received threats when he sold his home to the first black family in his Detroit neighborhood in the late sixties, but wasn't harmed.

Now men are claiming to be women, not just feeling like one

I'm unaware of biological men claiming to be biological women, but now we are discussing delusion, which is not a threat to society if it doesn't lead to criminal behavior.

how do you determine the difference?

That was a response to, "Some are biological women. Some are not." We decide that biologically. We can use genomes and/or anatomy. If you have a uterus or have had a hysterectomy, you are biologically female.

At work I must use the preferred pronouns and the student senate has passed a resolution that saying trans people are not the gender they identify with is an aggression and should be not allowed. So, it is coming. I don't care about pronouns, I will call you whatever you wish but if asked I will not say a transman is a man.

That was in response to, "Do you think that this is an example of you being forced to say a transgender woman is a woman?" So "no" is your answer, correct? This is an example of you being required to use pronouns you don't mind using.

It matters because it is not true and truth matters.

I don't see being polite and helpful to transgendered people as being based in an untruth. I also disagree that it matters what somebody's biological status is except in specific circumstances which don't include either of the two examples I gave - a bridge partner or a neighbor.

That women and men have certain characteristics that make them men and women.

@Evangelicalhumanist wrote to you, "in just about everything you write, you ignore mind." I agree. Several have referred to the newer psychological definitions of a woman - any person of any genetic makeup who feels female or prefers to appear female and/or be treated the way women are typically treated - likes to be told how beautiful she appears, likes a man pulling out her chair, etc..

 

[icehorse]

The internet is full of lies. When I was in school we had to first prove we understood the difference between reliable sources and one’s made by propaganda. And that was like a decade ago, at least. It’s probably worse now.

Indeed, this mirrors thoughts I expressed a few posts back.

I would amend this a bit though and say that probably MOST of what we read is written by people with agendas. So we have to be able to look for factual claims and assess those when we're reading.

 

[metis]

I think we should err on the side of caution

I think we should side with the family and their doctors who know much more about the teen in question and the medical pros & cons. I posted the Mayo Clinic's analysis, and this procedure has been performed for multiple reasons. If the right's reasoning was authentic, then they should come out against all hormone suppressant usage, but they haven't done that. So that's not the issue. Instead, it's the political and religious right's refusal to accept gays and transgenders both spiritually and legally equals. I don't care what they believe as they have that right, but don't write this into laws that clearly discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation.

No... as I noted above. This isn't political... it is about the future of our children. They have made the issue political... please don't succumb to it.

Yes, it is political, as this has been one of the "culture wars" mantras from the right. Two years ago, who was even talking about this, and yet hormone suppressant therapy has been used for decades now?

Turn in your conservative credentials, Mr. Leftist!

 

[We Never Know]

It *IS* a form of desegregation, the desegregation of the biological sexes in public bathrooms. Racial desegregation was also "risky," and there was a lot of resistance to bussing and to black people moving into formerly all-white neighborhoods. There was a joke then that desegregation referred to the period between when the first black family moved into a neighborhood and the last white family moved out. My father-in-law received threats when he sold his home to the first black family in his Detroit neighborhood in the late sixties, but wasn't harmed.

I'm unaware of biological men claiming to be biological women, but now we are discussing delusion, which is not a threat to society if it doesn't lead to criminal behavior.

That was a response to, "Some are biological women. Some are not." We decide that biologically. We can use genomes and/or anatomy. If you have a uterus or have had a hysterectomy, you are biologically female.

That was in response to, "Do you think that this is an example of you being forced to say a transgender woman is a woman?" So "no" is your answer, correct? This is an example of you being required to use pronouns you don't mind using.

I don't see being polite and helpful to transgendered people as being based in an untruth. I also disagree that it matters what somebody's biological status is except in specific circumstances which don't include either of the two examples I gave - a bridge partner or a neighbor.

@Evangelicalhumanist wrote to you, "in just about everything you write, you ignore mind." I agree. Several have referred to the newer psychological definitions of a woman - any person of any genetic makeup who feels female or prefers to appear female and/or be treated the way women are typically treated - likes to be told how beautiful she appears, likes a man pulling out her chair, etc..

They weren't claiming to be a biological cat were they?