The witchhunt continues...

[Kenny]

Christ, stop putting words in my mouth!

that's how you defined a lie.

 

[Kenny]

Here's a way to look at it: I think your religious beliefs are is false, but I wouldn't consider you a liar if you genuinely believe them. Lying implies deliberate deceit. Being misguided or mistaken isn't the same.

But if I genuinely thought I was Jesus Christ, identified as such and expected you to bow down to me and worship me, would you do it to please me? And I certainly wouldn't force you to believe as I do. I don't think they are the same apples. IMV

 

[Father Heathen]

I don't think they are the same apples. IMV

Neither is your analogy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So, basically, we are all liars because we all have lied?

No. It's that you claim youd love them but time and time again you repeatedly, and falsey, say they are liars.

 

[Kenny]

No. It's that you claim youd love them but time and time again you repeatedly, and falsey, say they are liars.

No, I didn't say they are liars so we are back to square one.

 

[Debater Slayer]

No, I didn't say they are liars so we are back to square one.

Hi, @Kenny. I hope you're having a nice week!

From my previous discussions with you, I've never gotten the impression that you were insincere or supporting views you didn't genuinely believe in. I disagree with many of your views that I've seen you express, but to call any of them a "lie" in the context of discussion would be to cast aspersions on your intentions, which I would find to be unwarranted and in bad faith.

Likewise, when a trans person sincerely states their gender identity, it seems to me that calling it a "lie" casts their intentions and integrity in a negative light, which I think is unjustified and, in the current political climate, could contribute to harming them (e.g., via garnering support and votes for politicians who propose or push forward anti-trans legislation).

In my opinion, many supporters of those politicians don't accurately practice what Jesus taught either when they support or contribute to the harm and targeting of their compatriots that is done via hostile legislation, but I call them Christians if they identify as such. I'm not going to call them "false Christians" or say they're advancing a "lie" despite my belief that they don't embody Jesus' teachings and selectively target certain groups.

Do you see where I'm going with this? Respecting the identity of Christians like the abovementioned subset doesn't require any extraordinary effort from me, and it doesn't harm me or infringe on my rights, so I do it. I don't see any reason not to extend the same courtesy to trans people and other groups.

 

[Kenny]

Hi, @Kenny. I hope you're having a nice week!

1. From my previous discussions with you, I've never gotten the impression that you were insincere or supporting views you didn't genuinely believe in. I disagree with many of your views that I've seen you express, but to call any of them a "lie" in the context of discussion would be to cast aspersions on your intentions, which I would find to be unwarranted and in bad faith.
2. Likewise, when a trans person sincerely states their gender identity, it seems to me that calling it a "lie" casts their intentions and integrity in a negative light, which I think is unjustified and, in the current political climate, could contribute to harming them (e.g., via garnering support and votes for politicians who propose or push forward anti-trans legislation).
3. In my opinion, many supporters of those politicians don't accurately practice what Jesus taught either when they support or contribute to the harm and targeting of their compatriots that is done via hostile legislation, but I call them Christians if they identify as such. I'm not going to call them "false Christians" or say they're advancing a "lie" despite my belief that they don't embody Jesus' teachings and selectively target certain groups.
4. Do you see where I'm going with this? Respecting the identity of Christians like the abovementioned subset doesn't require any extraordinary effort from me, and it doesn't harm me or infringe on my rights, so I do it. I don't see any reason not to extend the same courtesy to trans people and other groups.

Thank you for a kind, non-aggressive, conversational way of presenting things. Hopefully I can achieve the same standard.

I am having a nice weekend and thank you for asking. Just came back from Honduras. My wife and I did a leadership and a marriage seminar. Our team is still down there building a house for a single mother and her child. It is an exciting and fulfilling endeavor. Though it only has 400sq ft of living area plus a bathroom, she is soooo excited that she will be out of a stick, mud, paper and tin roof makeshift of a home. The land will be hers along with the concrete block home. Total cost, $10,000 which our church supporters financed.

1) OK. Let me turn this one around for a moment. When I held the position of not shutting down our church and kept it open for those who wanted to come. Distance between people, bought a 99.7% Covid killing FDA approved machine, provided sanitizing locations and extra cleaning, I was called "uncaring, covid spreader - un-Christian-like". When I didn't support the vaccination because we didn't know the longterm effects and it looked like a national experimentation (and still does) - on this forum I was told that I wasn't following the science and a bunch of other things. You can imagine what people said about me on this forum

Now, because I believe that XX is XX because science tells me that and that it would be insincere (I used the word lie - : to create a false or misleading impression - Merriam-Webster) - to follow that narrative, I am equally demeaned. OK... I am fine with that - people have strong opinions - but you can see there is no winning there.

No problem. I accepted that people just didn't agree with my position and they had strong viewpoints.

2) On this forum, we are talking about an issue. I would never tell a person who sees themselves as trans, "you are lying". However, if they said to me "You have to call me a she when I knew the gender was a "he"" - they are asking me to enjoin with them what I view as a false narrative.

I hear that we are always calling it "endangerment to trans", yet I find that there are more endangerment toward those who don't accept it than the other way around. If I saw or talked to a person who believed that they were trans, I would just talk to them... period. I give every person the right to be whatever they want to be.

Here, on the forum, I have tried to be civil. The response (noted by all the statements given) have basically been an attack on me. I'm fine with that but it does support my position that disagreeing with the narrative of today's new "i can be whatever I want to be" puts me in the danger list and not the other way around.

3) Yes... every group can misrepresent Jesus or atheism or polytheism. In India, there are peaceful Buddhist are aren't so peaceful. But being like Jesus ranges from "I do not condemn you, just go and sin no more" to upturning moneychanger's tables. I've seen "you are going to hell" (not a Jesus message) misrepresent the Gospel. However, Jesus did challenge the current thoughts of his time and it did create animosity.

But I am not sure what "hostile legislation" really looks like. If a legislation says, "No surgery until 18" - for those who make it, is it from hostility or from a real concern out of love. Perhaps it is in the eye of the beholder? It doesn't stop surgery, it simply postpones because there are so many who think they are trans and then figure out a few years later, they are not.

4) I agree. As I said, I would not face up with a person and shout "YOU NEED TO FOLLOW SCIENCE". But we are discussing an issue here and not having a face to face confrontation. Am I suppose to just not say anything? No viewpoint? No defense of what I believe? Sit down, shut up and just agree with me? I don't think this is the place for that.

So I would extend the courtesy just as I said to the lesbian woman who presented to me her husband (another woman) in church), "nice to meet you - come in, we are so happy to have you with us today".

She didn't ask me to call her "him", she didn't demand that I accept it as Gospel. Cowurtesy was both ways. I would do the same with someone who believed they were trans.

I have spoken to a "murder for hire" person, adulterers, and more deviant lifestyles that even you wouldn't agree with. I address them with respect and show them Jesus. But none of them have required me to agree with their positions. (I am not likening trans with any of this list but rather just the principle that no one has forced me to agree). I have to say that because the usual response has been "YOU JUST EQUATED ME AS A MURDERER", and the attack comes again.

So I hope I have been clear, respectful and reached the level that you presented it. I hope I addressed all of your points.

I thank you for your great presentation.

EDITED:

The end of the two lesbians was that they both gave their hearts to Jesus. The went to another state... one went to jail. The other came years later, happily married to a man and said, "thank you for the love and helping me see correctly". I didn't have to say anything about her lifestyle, the Holy Spirit did just fine. This is in context to the church, of course.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No, I didn't say they are liars so we are back to square one.

You did it again even after this post!

- they are asking me to enjoin with them what I view as a false narrative.

 

[Kenny]

You did it again even after this post!

no... I didn't call those who believe they are trans, liars.

What is a liar to you?

 

[Kenny]

I come from a tight, deeply religious family of ministers and non-ministers. I've been told that I'll go to hell just for supporting LGBT+, and my family, because they listen to a conservative radio host and conspiracy theorist named Alex Jones, also has been trying to "move away" from Democrat states, where trans care might come easier for me, and move to deeply red states, where it's not. I've had religious family members refer to my Hormone Replacement medicine when I took it, as "those nasty pills", and tell me that someone who I was close to who had died from medical issues in the past, "wouldn't have approved of me if they saw me now", despite there being no proof of that. And one of my family members who is a minister made a sermon in which they talked about me, though without mentioning names, in a bad light. And rather than sticking up for me, most of my family remarked "how inspired a sermon it was".

thank you for a beautiful expression of grace you have expressed throughout your personal story.

I am so very sorry!!!! for the lack of love expressed by your family of ministers. If you were in my family, though I may not agree, I would be prayerfully be at your side. Never heard of Alex Jones.

Creating a sermon about anybody in particular is a big no-no in our neck of the woods. It isn't inspiring! Nowhere in scriptures does it mention "tell your neighbor that there departed family would not approve of you"

On behalf of these people who lacked grace, please forgive us.

I forgive them, not from a religious perspective because I don't think I could muster it that way, but more from a rational, humanist perspective. And I feel my struggles have brought me closer to humanism, and though I sometimes try to distract myself in life, with things like chasing careers or "success", I feel my struggles have brought me closer to inner peace.

Well, you may see it as humanist, but I would look at it and say, "You are more of a Christian than your family". Won't get any more pastoral that just what I said.

And if it were up to me, I would still be on Hormones Replacement Therapy. But despite living in a Democrat state, I live in a highly Republican area in that state, and also with the anti-trans politicization going on in the US, I worry I wouldn't be able to get my medicine for long. So I made the hard choice of detransitioning, and not really so much "by choice".

You have a tough journey... may you be strengthened.

I also experienced 6 months of sickness from COVID because my family begged me not to get the COVID vaccine based on conspiracy theories and medical misinformation, which delayed me pursuing the medical side about it to the fullest extent and with the attention it deserved.

I think it is a roll of the dice. Some people got sick and died after vaccine, got Covid after vaccine, was in ICU after multiple vaccines and there isn't any way we can determine if your case would have been different. Sorry you went through a difficult time. I didn't take the vaccine, got it, and worked through it. At this point the medical people have come to the conclusion that having it is better than the vaccine (at least some say that - I'm sure doctors disagree). Of course now they are saying Covid will always be here and just keep taking the most up to date vaccine.

Now it's hard to say what my future holds transitioning wise, but I choose to demonstrate great patience and consideration about my family ordeals. I still love them, even with every hit that comes in the name of what they try to pass off as "Christian love". They've done things like have me listen to bigoted anti-trans preachers even, that they found on YouTube or other sites, and would send me the links with the hopes that "I would come to an understanding". They even accused me of being pretty illiterate of the Bible, when the more they try to push it on me, the less I want anything to do with it.

Don't blame you. Please remember that even Jesus had problems with the religious leaders. Why not read the NT Bible without the chatter of what people are doing?

Just curious, did you profess a faith in Jesus at some point in your life? (If I may ask)

I wouldn't worry too much about me, though. I'm fine. But to say that trans people are attacking you, and act like buying an FDA COVID machine is an "ordeal", well, I'm thinking it's like a white person saying they're the real victims of racism, to use a slight analogy.

Maybe I didn't communicate correctly. But, are you saying that the responses haven't been uncourteous and haven't been attacking?

As for "being called out" on the forums, I can kind of sympathize with that, there have been points in some threads where I have, too. But at least you probably have your "peace" outside of the forums to go back to. My peace tends to exist within, and also tends to involve "ignoring" some of the people around me - both family, acquaintances, and strangers. I've also heard of similar experiences from other trans people - some worse, some better, than my story.

Understand completely. My peace is within too in as much as I really mean when I say, "I'm ok with it". I am not taking the attacks personal but rather as people's knee jerk reactions.

I feel I do have a planned path toward peace in my immediate life, too, and not just peace within me. But it's a long road, filled with obstacles and challenges ahead.

But as for "simple solutions", there really are none. I don't need help, I just need to sit back and focus and chip away toward a better life, which I'm doing.

May you find the road of peace. Thank you for sharing.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I appreciate the response, @Kenny . I may respond to the individual points later. I deleted the post, because I didn't want people to make a bigger deal out of it than what it was. I'm just kind of moving on with my life, and finding peace where I see it, and I'm okay. Although, I do admit that there can be journeys which come with transitioning, and some of them difficult.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

On behalf of these people who lacked grace, please forgive us.

Thank you.

I think it is a roll of the dice. Some people got sick and died after vaccine, got Covid after vaccine, was in ICU after multiple vaccines and there isn't any way we can determine if your case would have been different

Fair.

Just curious, did you profess a faith in Jesus at some point in your life? (If I may ask)

Kind of. Not a very strong one, I would say.

Maybe I didn't communicate correctly. But, are you saying that the responses haven't been uncourteous and haven't been attacking?

Some of them may have been. So no. However, I think extra patience should be demonstrated if you say for example that a trans person lied, and one responds to you with hurt feelings - not me, just talking hypothetically. Trans people have a tough journey, so adding in people saying they lied, just makes it all the more harder - IMO.

May you find the road of peace. Thank you for sharing.

No problem.

 

[We Never Know]

Thus, doncha think any such decision should be left up to them and their doctor versus governments???

Doncha think you and I have already had that discussion on another thread? And it was answered more than once.

"And IMO governments should stay out of it period. Its a medical desicion, not a political decision."

International endocrinologists speak out against US gender transition medicine

It seems to be more about politics than care. "A group of 21 international endocrinology clinicians and researchers from nine countries signed an open letter published yesterday arguing that gender transition medicine for minors has been pushed in the United States for political reasons rather...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[F1fan]

So, basically, we are all liars because we all have lied?

No, you are falsely judging others, and accusing them of lying. And then you claim to have compassion for them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Doncha think you and I have already had that discussion on another thread? And it was answered more than once.

"And IMO governments should stay out of it period. Its a medical desicion, not a political decision."

International endocrinologists speak out against US gender transition medicine

It seems to be more about politics than care. "A group of 21 international endocrinology clinicians and researchers from nine countries signed an open letter published yesterday arguing that gender transition medicine for minors has been pushed in the United States for political reasons rather...

www.religiousforums.com

Even Creationists cam scrape together some biologists amd such who are Creationists amd reject evolution.
21 is a sample size too unreasonably and unacceptably small to accept. I've seen almost half of that (endos) just because of insurance bouncing me around and providers moving to different networks.
You can find even more psychiatrists who cling to Fred's models and ideas even though he had scant few ideas that were right.

 

[SomeRandom]

Even Creationists cam scrape together some biologists amd such who are Creationists amd reject evolution.
21 is a sample size too unreasonably and unacceptably small to accept. I've seen almost half of that (endos) just because of insurance bouncing me around and providers moving to different networks.
You can find even more psychiatrists who cling to Fred's models and ideas even though he had scant few ideas that were right.

I’m a little curious.
My counsellor and shrink family always mock Freud. But I don’t have the knowledge to know what they’re talking about, admittedly.
Is he a laughing stock?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is he a laughing stock?

According to Frued, you're jealous of your mom because your dad gives her attention that he could be giving you, you envy men for having a penis, and men are terrified of cooters because it reminds them of castration.

 

[SomeRandom]

According to Frued, you're jealous of your mom because your dad gives her attention that he could be giving you, you envy men for having a penis, and men are terrified of cooters because it reminds them of castration.

I mean given the responses I’ve seen lately from certain men (Ben burning Barbie like some kind of baby, for example) maybe he wasn’t too far off

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I mean given the responses I’ve seen lately from certain men (Ben burning Barbie like some kind of baby, for example) maybe he wasn’t too far off

Nah. He's been very thoroughly debunked and largely and mostly discarded. He got a few things right, but other than that I've never known a guy who wants to shag his mom.

 

[SomeRandom]

Nah. He's been very thoroughly debunked and largely and mostly discarded. He got a few things right, but other than that I've never known a guy who wants to shag his mom.

I was mostly joking lol
The reactions I’ve seen from American blokes about wokeness or whatever lately does make one wonder
Just saying
Lol






I am joking. Just to be clear