The WORD of GOD... really?

[Pegg]

Honestly, why should the "choice" you speak of, namely what you believe about what you can not know, be important?

choice is intrinsic to being human. It is in our nature and God was the one who put it there...he put it there because he made us in his image. We were made to be free moral agents and he allows us to use our freedom of choice.

Maybe in a universe where to disbelieve recquired a consciously evil choice, but in this world the mistake is made unintentionally and by wise and good people. What is the value of faith? Because i can't think of any.

to disbelieve is just as much a choice as is to believe... there are no mistakes when it comes to our personal choices.

We each bare our own responsibility toward God and its up to each individual to make a choice one way or the other. God is able to be found if a person truly wants to find him, but sadly, most people have chosen not to. Paul tells us why faith is so important at Hebrews 11:6 ‘without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing to God.’

 

[jmvizanko]

Faith has value regardless of what you think.

And that value is what?

 

[jmvizanko]

to disbelieve is just as much a choice as is to believe... there are no mistakes when it comes to our personal choices.

We each bare our own responsibility toward God and its up to each individual to make a choice one way or the other. God is able to be found if a person truly wants to find him, but sadly, most people have chosen not to. Paul tells us why faith is so important at Hebrews 11:6 ‘without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing to God.’

Did you really choose to believe that 2+2=4? Do you really choose to disbelieve me when I tell you I have a gay magical unicorn living in my backyard?

And it is rather arrogant and ethnocentric to assume that people that don't find your god are not honestly searching for truth. Just because the bible says this does not make it true, as it is not. I don't actively and rebelliously refuse to seek and find god. I, and many others, in our sincere search for truth, just don't consider your god's existence likely to be true. And we did not choose to believe this any more than we choose to believe that 2+2=4.

 

[ninerbuff]

People raised on the bible believe it's god's word. People raised on the Tanach (sp?) believe in that book and the same for people in the Quran.

It all boils down to how you were raised and the society you are around.

Luckily some of us looked past it and used some common logic to figure out that it was just a book of stories not unlike that of mythology.

 

[Etritonakin]

But with all due respect, groups of men throughout history have indeed sat down and decided that this particular writing WAS inspired by the hand of God and this particular writing WASN'T inspired by the hand of God. I'm just saying that it seems as if people aren't putting their faith in God, but rather are putting their faith in whatever fallible human being tells them that the particular book he has in his hand is the true WORD of GOD,

If God did not exist, then yes -it would be entirely up to man to decide.

It was primarily the Catholic church which decided which writings were to be included in the modern "bible" (even included a few more since the early days in the "Catholic" bible), but the actual writings are from people who were part of a nation which all shared the same strange history. These writings were essentially their national record -and were public record. Prophecy was usually given to individuals, but most of the rest are accounts of shared experiences to varying degrees. There were severe penalties for sin in ancient Israel -but pointing out error in public record (historians bearing false witness) would have been considered the right thing to do -yet no one contested these things back then.

If these things did not happen, there was a serious mass delusion taking place -and some think exactly that.

I don't think one ought to believe in God -or what is written in the bible -if they sincerely do not -but if you are really interested in whether or not God has anything to do with the bible, an in-depth study should first be made before drawing any conclusions.

 

[Dezzie]

Ugh... you guys are SO silly... we all know God came down from the skies and wrote in the book himself! Don't act like you didn't know... lol you bunch of geese...

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

Well doesn't the presuppose god would write in a book, given god could simply write it out in the stars and make it say "I am your god you shall have no other gods before me... blah blah blah...." ever since mankind existed.

I suppose he could do that, but that wouldnt give you much of a choice then...you'd have no choice but to believe.

so god intentionally makes it hard to believe in him, for the sake of our choice?

Faith has value regardless of what you think.

that doesn't answer anybody's question, regardless of what you think.

 

[Eliot Wild]

God is able to be found if a person truly wants to find him, but sadly, most people have chosen not to. Paul tells us why faith is so important at Hebrews 11:6 ‘without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing to God.’

With all due respect, I've literally searched for God all my life and have never found Him. Since as early as I can remember, I have had questions about the nature of things, how our universe came into existence, and who or what might be responsible for it. I have made sincere efforts at prayer and biblical exploration, only to have nothing revealed to me from God.

Furthermore, I know many atheists who have made couragious efforts to 'find' God, but as of yet have not been able to find conclusive proof to satisfy their own minds.

How do you explain God's disregard for us, if as you say, He is able to be found for those who sincerely seek him?

 

[yourhopeboundheart]

How about....burning all forms of scripture....

None to be taken as God's Word?
None have social value?

Burn them all.

i dont think you need to be so dramatic.
burning books is only a good idea if you are dying of hypothermia. the only action that you would need to take that people should commonly admit that these books are just as useful as many other books that inspire, inform, and enrich people's lives every day. the social value of all texts depends on the way that the society uses it, if the society is stretching and abusing the texts to attribute value to it (say, calling it the infallible word of the creator) then it actually loses value.

Let Man's alterations stand as proof of corruption....
and none are valid.

Then what?

then people will be held responsible for doing their own research and making their own moral decisions. people's beliefs will be an expression of who they are and what they know, rather than a reflection of a dreadfully empty library.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I get the impression that your questioning as to the authenticity of the bible is based not on the written word, but the interpretations that men have put on it, two different things.

Precisely my point! To claim that the bible is the WORD of GOD is ridiculous. Anyone who says to me that the bible is the WORD of GOD is deluding themselves. The bible is various fallible human beings interpretation of what other fallible human beings have attributed to be "inspired by the hand of God". Go ahead and read the book as if it were ancient history and philosophy, but please, let's not suggest that your "faith" that it IS the word of God is anything more than wishful thinking on your part. That's not faith in God, but rather faith in whomever tells you that this particular book is the Word of God. I could tell you that the words I wrote last week were inspired by God's hand, but you'd be a fool to believe me. Why then is it any less foolish to believe that words written by people who have been dead for thousands of years were in fact inspired by God? Just because other fallible, sinful humans have been claiming it is so for thousands of years?

 

[QuestioningMind]

[QUOTE

What doubters and skeptics don't allow for is the Spirit and Power of God to bring about what He plans and purposes.
He would not be the Almighty God if men could alter His Word willy-nilly.
Of course they have been quite successful at it but only because God has allowed them - for a season Ex.20v8. But now man's own time is all but up and BIIIIIIG CHANGES are coming with the beginning of v9.
Man will finally see just how foolish and ignorant he has been Rom.1v22!

][/QUOTE]

Excuse me? God COULD prevent people from perverting his word, but chooses not to? Why? Because he wants His WORD to be as vague and incomprehensible as possible? He's ALMIGHTY GOD, as you say, and if He genuinely wants people to know His WORD, why hasn't he divinely conveyed his WORD to ALL of us, instead of just a handful of individuals thousands of years ago? Were they somehow more deserving of receiving His WORD first hand? Whereas the rest of us over the centuries have to deal with the perverted and biased version that's been handed down from generation to generation?

Isn't God familiar with how the "whispering Game" works? You know, when you sit in a big circle and whisper a message to the person next to you, who then whispers the message on to the next person in the circle, then everyone laughs at how distorted the message becomes by the time it reaches the end of the circle. Telling one generation to "pass on the message" to the next generation pretty much ensures that the message will become completely altered over time. If the goal is to truly enlighten ALL people with His WORD, then he should know He needs to personally whisper that message into every single person's ear in the circle, not devise a system guaranteed to drastically alter that message over time.

 

[Beta]

I did not say God's Word or the Bible is perverted but what mankind is doing to it because of their own free will - that is what perverts it. It is the human will that causes the damage. God's Word, his Laws and Commandments are printed in black and white for ALL men to read and OBEY but man does NOT CHOOSE to obey. Maybe we should start with our OWN SELF - do WE obey ? do YOU obey ? If you can answer that honestly you might better understand the trouble we are in and the problem God has with us.
IF man kept,observed,obeyed God's Commandments most of our troubles would disappear in an instant. God wants man to use his free will to choose the right way to live and God's Law of Commandments are there to help us. Do you believe that , do YOU want to follow them ? Most people don't. They want to live as they please yet blame God when it goes wrong.
We are to learn to make the right choices in life which are based on God's Laws. That is the bottom line for a happy peaceful life.
God wispering in your ear would make no difference if you are not prepared to obey his guidance and instuctions. We already had them for 6000 years.

 

[tomato1236]

I’d honestly like to get a response from individuals here who proclaim that the bible is the WORD of GOD. How can you, in your heart-of-hearts, believe this to be true? Surely you don’t believe that GOD actually sat down and wrote the words that you read in this book. You do comprehend that every single word within the bible was written by fallible, imperfect human beings, right? And that fallible, imperfect human beings have been deciding for thousands of years how to translate various passages from long dead languages, fighting over and deciding what parts to include and what parts to take out. Do you honestly believe that over thousands of years people haven’t altered what is in this book in order to further their own selfish gains? How then do you explain the fact that there are so many different versions of the WORD of GOD?

So clearly what we have here is not the WORD of GOD, but rather, various fallible, imperfect human being’s interpretation and personal belief as to what the WORD of GOD is.

Huh. You sound like a (slightly bitter) mormon. Kudos.

 

[tomato1236]

Excuse me? God COULD prevent people from perverting his word, but chooses not to? Why? Because he wants His WORD to be as vague and incomprehensible as possible? He's ALMIGHTY GOD, as you say, and if He genuinely wants people to know His WORD, why hasn't he divinely conveyed his WORD to ALL of us, instead of just a handful of individuals thousands of years ago? Were they somehow more deserving of receiving His WORD first hand? Whereas the rest of us over the centuries have to deal with the perverted and biased version that's been handed down from generation to generation?

Isn't God familiar with how the "whispering Game" works? You know, when you sit in a big circle and whisper a message to the person next to you, who then whispers the message on to the next person in the circle, then everyone laughs at how distorted the message becomes by the time it reaches the end of the circle. Telling one generation to "pass on the message" to the next generation pretty much ensures that the message will become completely altered over time. If the goal is to truly enlighten ALL people with His WORD, then he should know He needs to personally whisper that message into every single person's ear in the circle, not devise a system guaranteed to drastically alter that message over time.

Again...mormon?

 

[tomato1236]

The answer is that the people who actually first put pen to paper were instruments of god, either inspired to write only the truth or whose hands were physically moved by god to write the truth. Take your pick. As for all subsequent versions that appear and the question as to which is correct, this came about because different people require different versions in order to assimilate the truth. Not all people will be convinced by the same presentation. Therefore, while the details have been necessarily changed to accommodate this need, the message, which is the all-important element, remains the same.

:run:

Huh. I dunno.

 

[Pegg]

so god intentionally makes it hard to believe in him, for the sake of our choice?

he doesnt make it hard to believe in him, he just doesnt force people to believe in him.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Huh. You sound like a (slightly bitter) mormon. Kudos.

Nope, not a morman, just someone who wonders how people can put their blind faith into the words of fallible humans who claim to know the word of God.

 

[tomato1236]

Nope, not a morman, just someone who wonders how people can put their blind faith into the words of fallible humans who claim to know the word of God.

Yeah I can tell. Like you were saying, it seems like God would give us clarification on his word, or more of it in a purer source or a prophet in our day so things aren't so confusing and up to human interpretation.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I did not say God's Word or the Bible is perverted but what mankind is doing to it because of their own free will - that is what perverts it. It is the human will that causes the damage. God's Word, his Laws and Commandments are printed in black and white for ALL men to read and OBEY but man does NOT CHOOSE to obey. Maybe we should start with our OWN SELF - do WE obey ? do YOU obey ? If you can answer that honestly you might better understand the trouble we are in and the problem God has with us.
IF man kept,observed,obeyed God's Commandments most of our troubles would disappear in an instant. God wants man to use his free will to choose the right way to live and God's Law of Commandments are there to help us. Do you believe that , do YOU want to follow them ? Most people don't. They want to live as they please yet blame God when it goes wrong.
We are to learn to make the right choices in life which are based on God's Laws. That is the bottom line for a happy peaceful life.
God wispering in your ear would make no difference if you are not prepared to obey his guidance and instuctions. We already had them for 6000 years.

You fail to address exactly who's version of God's "black and white" laws and commandments we are ALL supposed to OBEY. Yours, because YOU claim it's true? Again, that's putting my faith in YOU, a fallible human being, not God, and you are putting your faith in whomever it was that convinced you that the particular set of laws and commandments you follow is the TRUE Word of God. How can you admit that fallible human beings, capable and willing to pervert the Word of God have been in charge of deciding what goes into your book and how it will be interpreted for thousands of years, but then turn around and claim that the words in that book have not been perverted to justify selfish human desires?

 

[Midnight Pete]

And that value is what?

You seem to have the answer already.