The WORD of GOD... really?

[Pegg]

With all due respect, I've literally searched for God all my life and have never found Him. Since as early as I can remember, I have had questions about the nature of things, how our universe came into existence, and who or what might be responsible for it. I have made sincere efforts at prayer and biblical exploration, only to have nothing revealed to me from God.

Do you mind if I ask you what conclusion you've come up with? Or have you come to a conclusion? Who/What do you think is responsible for the universe and all life in it?

Furthermore, I know many atheists who have made couragious efforts to 'find' God, but as of yet have not been able to find conclusive proof to satisfy their own minds.

When you say "they have not been able to find conclusive proof to satisfy their own minds", it makes me wonder what sort of conclusive proof they are seeking. I've never seen God, he's never spoken to me, i've never seen a miracle or a vision or anything supernatural, yet I have been drawn to God.... and no, i wasnt indoctrinated as a child...I grew up without any religion.

I think that some people put conditions on God before they will accept him and for that reason we need to look inside ourselves with honesty and ask why we are searching, if we are truly searching or if we are simply taking an intellectual journey.

How do you explain God's disregard for us, if as you say, He is able to be found for those who sincerely seek him?

God does not disregard any person who is seeking him. He loves mankind...all of us... and he wants everyone to know him. But in order to find him we need to be honest with ourselves and our motives, we need humility to accept the things we may not want to hear and we need to be hungry for the spirit which means we have to really want what God is offering

some of us may be hungry enough to want it, but not humble enough to accept it....or we may be humble enough to accept it but not honest enough to believe it

but i can assure you that when God sees that we have these necessary qualities, he will draw us to him and we will find him. Keep this in mind:

Acts 17:22 "The God that made the world and all the things in it, being, as this One is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples, neither is he attended to by human hands as if he needed anything, because he himself gives to all persons life and breath and all things. And he made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed seasons and the set limits of the dwelling of men, for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. For by him we have life and move and exist, even as certain ones of the poets among you have said, ‘For we are also his progeny.’ ’

 

[QuestioningMind]

he doesnt make it hard to believe in him, he just doesnt force people to believe in him.

I suppose that technically that's true, but if that's the case then you'd pretty much have to also claim that a kidnapper placing a gun to your head and telling you to get into his car or get your head blown off isn't actually forcing you to get into the car. Since you have free will you COULD choose to disobey and get your head blown off. That's basically what God is doing when he says it's your choice, believe in me or get sentenced to eternal damnation and suffering in hell. So I guess God doesn't make it hard to believe in him, just as the kidnapper doesn't make it hard for you to get into that car, considering that death is the alternative.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I’d honestly like to get a response from individuals here who proclaim that the bible is the WORD of GOD. How can you, in your heart-of-hearts, believe this to be true? Surely you don’t believe that GOD actually sat down and wrote the words that you read in this book. You do comprehend that every single word within the bible was written by fallible, imperfect human beings, right? And that fallible, imperfect human beings have been deciding for thousands of years how to translate various passages from long dead languages, fighting over and deciding what parts to include and what parts to take out. Do you honestly believe that over thousands of years people haven’t altered what is in this book in order to further their own selfish gains? How then do you explain the fact that there are so many different versions of the WORD of GOD?

So clearly what we have here is not the WORD of GOD, but rather, various fallible, imperfect human being’s interpretation and personal belief as to what the WORD of GOD is.

Are you really this ignorant about the Bible or is this a bait?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Do you honestly believe that over thousands of years people haven’t altered what is in this book in order to further their own selfish gains?

Nope.

How then do you explain the fact that there are so many different versions of the WORD of GOD?

Good question.

So clearly what we have here is not the WORD of GOD, but rather, various fallible, imperfect human being’s interpretation and personal belief as to what the WORD of GOD is.

Exactly! If the Bible was the word of God, and contained everything God wanted us to know, why do we have thousands of different churches all claiming to be right? It seems to me that the Bible alone is not sufficient.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Are you really this ignorant about the Bible or is this a bait?

Ignorant about the bible? In what way? Ignorant enough to believe that it is the literal Word of God, as so many who profess to read it claim that it is? Absolutely not! My assertion is that anyone's faith in God is predicated on first having blind faith in those fallible humans who proclaim to know the Word of God.

 

[Pegg]

I suppose that technically that's true, but if that's the case then you'd pretty much have to also claim that a kidnapper placing a gun to your head and telling you to get into his car or get your head blown off isn't actually forcing you to get into the car. Since you have free will you COULD choose to disobey and get your head blown off. That's basically what God is doing when he says it's your choice, believe in me or get sentenced to eternal damnation and suffering in hell. So I guess God doesn't make it hard to believe in him, just as the kidnapper doesn't make it hard for you to get into that car, considering that death is the alternative.

I take it you believe that hell is a place of fiery torment as the churchs have led you to believe. Please understand that hell is no such place.
The orginal words that are translated as 'hell' in most bibles comes from the Greek word 'Hades' and Hebrew word 'Sheol' ... both of these places simply mean the grave. Its the place where we go to when we die....there is no suffering, no torment...its complete unconsciousness just as the bible says at Eccl 9:5 “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all...”

So it really makes no difference whether we believe in God or not...we are all going to hell (our graves) when we die. Our choice is either to continue living this existence and eventually die by old age or sickness or some other tragic circumstance, OR take refuge in God and he will grant us everlasting life. That is the choice.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Ignorant about the bible? In what way? Ignorant enough to believe that it is the literal Word of God, as so many who profess to read it claim that it is? Absolutely not! My assertion is that anyone's faith in God is predicated on first having blind faith in those fallible humans who proclaim to know the Word of God.

For example were you serious when you asked if god actually sat down and wrote the Bible. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of Scripture know this. Heck, a 6 year old Sunday school student knows better.

 

[Etritonakin]

Excuse me? God COULD prevent people from perverting his word, but chooses not to? Why? Because he wants His WORD to be as vague and incomprehensible as possible? He's ALMIGHTY GOD, as you say, and if He genuinely wants people to know His WORD, why hasn't he divinely conveyed his WORD to ALL of us, instead of just a handful of individuals thousands of years ago? Were they somehow more deserving of receiving His WORD first hand? Whereas the rest of us over the centuries have to deal with the perverted and biased version that's been handed down from generation to generation?

Isn't God familiar with how the "whispering Game" works? You know, when you sit in a big circle and whisper a message to the person next to you, who then whispers the message on to the next person in the circle, then everyone laughs at how distorted the message becomes by the time it reaches the end of the circle. Telling one generation to "pass on the message" to the next generation pretty much ensures that the message will become completely altered over time. If the goal is to truly enlighten ALL people with His WORD, then he should know He needs to personally whisper that message into every single person's ear in the circle, not devise a system guaranteed to drastically alter that message over time.

Actually, yes.

Apart from a few (not unimportant) mistranslations and simplified versions, etc.., the actual writings are pretty much the same, but -as we see in these forums -even one verse can be believed to mean many different things by many different people.
It is not so much the "word of God" which has changed, but what people believe it says -or means.

According to the bible, God purposefully hides and reveals understanding of his word.

It might seem strange, but it is no more strange than not discussing certain subjects with children until they are able to comprehend them or until they have the maturity to consider them without being overwhelmed or tempted to do wrong, etc., etc.

God reveals himself and truth about his word when it is best for his purpose and for our greater good.

Making people understand his word is not as important as making people prepared to receive his word correctly. Those who receive it are not more intelligent, but are in the correct spiritual state to allow it to take root, so to speak.

The "parable of the sower" (Mark 4) illustrates that though many hear the word, it is as seeds which fall on various types of soil.

Those who receive it before others are not better -just before. To make us understand AND give us the best possible chance for succes, God reveals things to men IN ORDER.

Consider the following verses.....

Mar 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Here, Christ actually says some are not allowed to understand so they can NOT be converted and forgiven!

Why? Because it may not be the best time to do so! If they are converted and are forgiven -and then turn back again, their state is worse than it was. It would be spiritually dangerous!

Luk 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.


So -when it says that the word of God is line upon line -precept upon precept, etc -that they might fall backward, be broken, snared, taken... (Isaiah 28:9-13) it is actually better for those to misunderstand it for the time being -and experience the results of their misunderstanding -than to understand it. It will be better in the long run, as the negative results can make them more prepared to receive it correctly -and more prepared by maturity to sincerely search the word diligently -here and there, line upon line -precept upon precept, etc...

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I take it you believe that hell is a place of fiery torment as the churchs have led you to believe. Please understand that hell is no such place.
The orginal words that are translated as 'hell' in most bibles comes from the Greek word 'Hades' and Hebrew word 'Sheol' ... both of these places simply mean the grave. Its the place where we go to when we die....there is no suffering, no torment...its complete unconsciousness just as the bible says at Eccl 9:5 “For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all...”

So it really makes no difference whether we believe in God or not...we are all going to hell (our graves) when we die. Our choice is either to continue living this existence and eventually die by old age or sickness or some other tragic circumstance, OR take refuge in God and he will grant us everlasting life. That is the choice.

But what makes the words in this bible truly the Words of God? You've put your faith in words compiled and translated by fallible human beings over thousands of years, not God. The REAL choice is whether put your faith in God or some other individual's interpretation of God. A personal relationship with God doesn't come from some one else's book. If you have a need for something in black and white, write your OWN book, it will be just as valid, if not more valid for you, than any other book out there.

 

[Pegg]

But what makes the words in this bible truly the Words of God? You've put your faith in words compiled and translated by fallible human beings over thousands of years, not God. The REAL choice is whether put your faith in God or some other individual's interpretation of God. A personal relationship with God doesn't come from some one else's book. If you have a need for something in black and white, write your OWN book, it will be just as valid, if not more valid for you, than any other book out there.

the men who wrote the bible were fallible, absolutely...they even relate to us their own failings within the writings themselves. So that is not an issue for me. If God came to you in a vision and told you to write something down, your own fallibility would not make your words any less meaningful or any less truthful would it?

Do you really believe that no human, not one of us, can write anything with honesty and integrity?

But I do see what you are saying with regard to accepting the words of these people and putting faith in what they've written. So I guess the question we should be asking is how we can be sure that what they've written is really from God... because if it really is from God, then it would be foolish of us to disregard it.


Christians of the past were also skeptical and the apostle John warned against believing every “inspired expression,” He admonished Christians to “test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God.” 1John 4:1
Even Moses spoke about the need for caution when it came to accepting the words of those who claimed to speak for God.
In Deut 18:21-22 he says
21 And in case you should say in your heart: “How shall we know the word that Jehovah has not spoken?” 22 when the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word does not occur or come true, that is the word that Jehovah did not speak. With presumptuousness the prophet spoke it. You must not get frightened at him.’

The Isrealites took this advice when it came to the prophets, or those who claimed to be prophets. The writings of prophets were never accepted by the priests until after their prophecies became fulfilled. It was only then that they accepted the prophet as a true prophet of God and placed his writings among the holy books. So it wasnt as if anyone could just write something, claim it was from God and everyone accepted it...it had to first be tested and proved as to its truthfullness. And thats what makes the words of the bible trully the word of God...its the accuracy of the prophecies that have come true which prove it to be the word of God.

 

[jmvizanko]

You seem to have the answer already.

You mean that there is no value in arbitrarily believing in something for the sake of believing it, instead of believing in things because they align with a person's sense of right and wrong and logic? And that, in fact, faith in unquestionable, unknowable absolute truths can lead people to do things that would, without that faith, be considered evil by basic common sense, such as killing unbelievers or opposing our greatest tool for improving the quality of life, science?

I'm glad we are in agreement.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Actually, yes.

Apart from a few (not unimportant) mistranslations and simplified versions, etc.., the actual writings are pretty much the same, but -as we see in these forums -even one verse can be believed to mean many different things by many different people.
It is not so much the "word of God" which has changed, but what people believe it says -or means.

But aren't you basically saying then that the actual writings have no intrinsic meaning, since they are subject to individual interpretation? And it's not only a matter of interpretation, but what each generation decides is important in this book that needs to be stressed, and which parts can safely be ignored. Shouldn't a personal relationship with God be based upon one's own personal relationship with God and not by putting our blind faith into interpretations of God written by other people thousands of years ago?

 

[QuestioningMind]

For example were you serious when you asked if god actually sat down and wrote the Bible. Anyone with a cursory knowledge of Scripture know this. Heck, a 6 year old Sunday school student knows better.

Indeed, said to make the point that, unless you are in fact ignorant enough to
believe that God actually sat down to write the bible, every word written in the bible (or any holy manuscript) was actually written by fallible human beings.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Indeed, said to make the point that, unless you are in fact ignorant enough to
believe that God actually sat down to write the bible, every word written in the bible (or any holy manuscript) was actually written by fallible human beings.

Okay, so...

What solution do you propose? What should people rely on (assuming the existence of God)? Is there a reliable source of truth that people can turn to? Or are we doomed?

 

[Midnight Pete]

This is where a lot of people start dressing in black, cutting themselves, and listening to Marylin Manson. This is the great disillusion, the great falling away from God. Right here, at this junction.

Doomed indeed ...

:cover: :ignore: :sad4:

 

[QuestioningMind]

Okay, so...

What solution do you propose? What should people rely on (assuming the existence of God)? Is there a reliable source of truth that people can turn to? Or are we doomed?

A personal relationship with God comes from within, not from some book or from anyone else's interpretation of what a relationship with God is or should be. In truth, books such as the bible that claim to contain the Word of God make it more difficult for people to develop true personal relationships with God. They start off defining God via what's written in someone else's book, by putting their faith into other people's interpretations and not relying on their own. Need a book, better off to write your own, it will be just as valid, and probably far more valid for you personally, than any other book out there.

 

[Pegg]

I would challenge anyone of you who does not believe the bible to be the word of God to do some research into biblical prophecies. Almost every book of the bible contains prophecy which has come true. If anyone can honestly close the bible after learning of its many prophecies and still say its just a work of crazy old men, then I would doubt that you've really looked at it with any honesty.

 

[jmvizanko]

This is where a lot of people start dressing in black, cutting themselves, and listening to Marylin Manson. This is the great disillusion, the great falling away from God. Right here, at this junction.

Doomed indeed ...

:cover: :ignore: :sad4:

Yeah, I just cut myself until I could see tendons. Oh wait....

 

[QuestioningMind]

I would challenge anyone of you who does not believe the bible to be the word of God to do some research into biblical prophecies. Almost every book of the bible contains prophecy which has come true. If anyone can honestly close the bible after learning of its many prophecies and still say its just a work of crazy old men, then I would doubt that you've really looked at it with any honesty.

I have read biblical prophecies, and what struck me was how it's possible for individuals to interpret them in most any way they choose, especially when approached on the basis of some predetermined criteria.

 

[QuestioningMind]

[/I]The Isrealites took this advice when it came to the prophets, or those who claimed to be prophets. The writings of prophets were never accepted by the priests until after their prophecies became fulfilled. It was only then that they accepted the prophet as a true prophet of God and placed his writings among the holy books. So it wasnt as if anyone could just write something, claim it was from God and everyone accepted it...it had to first be tested and proved as to its truthfullness. And thats what makes the words of the bible trully the word of God...its the accuracy of the prophecies that have come true which prove it to be the word of God.
[/COLOR]

But this is my point exactly... all along it has been fallible humans who have judged what prophets to consider, and when or if a specific prophecy had come to pass. All along it's been a very human enterprise to decide what gets included and what does not, with all of the selfish, political human weaknesses that goes along with any human enterprise. The bible is a human attempt to define God's Word, NOT God's Word. And putting your blind faith into believing that it is, is not faith in God, but rather blind faith in other fallible humans.