The wrath of God

[Remté]

A little of a bazzaro response. In this elitist scenario, which humans are above temptation?

The problem remains God is responsible for the creation of the nature of being a fallible, and the temptation and 'Fall' of Adam and Eve. This brings to question the Biblical use of the Wrath of God proposing an anthropomorphic fallible God making arbitrary decisions in extreme forms of punishment that is also common in the OT.

What makes you think God was responsible for the temptation in Islam?

Nevertheless I suppose if you care to "lay responsibility on God" you could say he did give man capability to do wrong. That was the point in creating man. But clearly you don't believe in the Abrahamic God, do you? So your arguments are strange. You can't jump from religion to religion, sect to sect, scripture to scripture and adjust your opinions as evet in convenient in each case. Or you can, pardon me, but what's the point? More over, what is the point on anyone engaging you in such an argument? It bears no fruit so to speak.

 

[columbus]

What makes you think God was responsible for the temptation in Islam?

Because being an All Powerful sentient being makes you responsible for about everything.
Tom

 

[shunyadragon]

What makes you think God was responsible for the temptation in Islam?

God is responsible for the nature of fallible humans and the weakness of temptation regardless of which theist religion you choose.

Nevertheless I suppose if you care to "lay responsibility on God" you could say he did give man capability to do wrong. That was the point in creating man.

I do not believe that the point of God was 'creating humans' capable of doing wrong. God created human in the of God attributes including human will. Part of the problem is you are trying too hard to define what these attributes are or are not.

But clearly you don't believe in the Abrahamic God, do you?

I believe in the Abrahamic God, but not the ancient views of the Abrahamic God in Judaism and in particularly Christianity. Since the direction of this thread is the Christian view I am dealing with that. The view of Islam concerning Adam and Eve and the 'Original Sin(?) is far more complex, and differs between the different divisions of Islam.

So your arguments are strange. You can't jump from religion to religion, sect to sect, scripture to scripture and adjust your opinions as even in convenient in each case. Or you can, pardon me, but what's the point? More over, what is the point on anyone engaging you in such an argument? It bears no fruit so to speak.

Since I am dealing specifically with the Christian, and to a certain extent the Jewish view your responses have muddled the discussion. The issue of the 'Wrath of God' in the context originally proposed in this thread is how God is portrayed in the Bible.

You have failed to present your view (Which one of the Islamic views?) in the discussion you have created the confusion. To a certain degree the Baha'i Faith would agree with the Islamic view that 'Adam' was a prophet, but beyond that the variable beliefs in Islam make the issue uncertain, and represent interpretations of the Genesis scripture and not the literal scripture itself.

The related issue is how the concept of evil is believed, and related to Adam and Eve, the 'Fall' and the resulting 'Original Sin,' and also how Christianity views as the purpose of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Many Christians believe the 'Fall' and 'Original Sin;' represent the temptation of Adam and Eve succumbing to the 'Evil' forces of Satan and/or the Devil. This view is reinforced in the New Testament as the conflict between the forces of good and evil, as found in the Book of Revelation.

The related Baha'i view of evil is relevant here:

From: How Do You Define Evil?

"Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence… In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth… – Some Answered Questions, p. 263.

…all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life… all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent. – ibid, p. 263."

 

[Father Heathen]

Because anything beyond that surpasses your understanding and how could there be something that you cannot understand?

Are you suggesting that when someone who is severely mentally handicapped (or so we presume?) smears their own **** on walls, perhaps it might actually be a deep, complex form of communication we're simply not grasping because it's beyond our understanding?.

 

[Remté]

Are you suggesting that when someone who is severely mentally handicapped (or so we presume?) smears their own **** on walls, perhaps it might actually be a deep, complex form of communication we're simply not grasping because it's beyond our understanding?.

I don't think it's communication necessarily but I do think it is beyond your understanding. Since you use it as an example

 

[Windwalker]

Out-of-control deities, rakshasas and asuras always get slapped down either by Vishnu, or Shiva, or both.

The great Jehovah smackdown, on WWE?

 

[shunyadragon]

The great Jehovah smackdown, on WWE?

The solid gold girdle goes to the winner.

 

[InChrist]

You can't have read your bible. It's all in there ─ no one has to make it up.

Do you want me to set out references for you?

No, I have read all the passages used by skeptics who pull them out of context to make accusations against God's character. When this is done it speaks loud and clear that those who do so have no understanding of the history, culture (s), what is taking place at the time, why such accounts are even specifically included and preserved in the scriptures, or what God's eternal purpose is about. It is obvious that anyone who misuses the scriptures in this way has no desire or intention of knowing the truth, what was going on with the people at the time, or God at all.

 

[InChrist]

That is what happens when you try to create imperfect beings in your image, without knowing what you are really doing.

Suggestion to the Almighty for a possible next time: either make them really like you, ergo incapable of sinning, or just drop that “in your image” label” that just confuses things.

Ciao

- viole

If God is Almighty, which, I believe God is, then a creature attempting to make suggestions or imply that such God doesn't know what He's doing is extremely arrogant.

The fact that God made humans in His image does not mean humans are perfect beings... as is God. Logically, that could never be since there is only One unique God, One unique Almighty Creator, Spirit, so any creature, is less than this God Being. Made in the image of God, means God gave humans the attributes and ability to reflect His love, righteousness, purity, etc. and the capacity to make the choice to freely do so.

What does it mean that humanity is made in the image of God (imago dei)?

 

[viole]

If God is Almighty, which, I believe God is, then a creature attempting to make suggestions or imply that such God doesn't know what He's doing is extremely arrogant.

The fact that God made humans in His image does not mean humans are perfect beings... as is God. Logically, that could never be since there is only One unique God, One unique Almighty Creator, Spirit, so any creature, is less than this God Being. Made in the image of God, means God gave humans the attributes and ability to reflect His love, righteousness, purity, etc. and the capacity to make the choice to freely do so.

What does it mean that humanity is made in the image of God (imago dei)?

What does it mean?

It means realizing that He does not know what He is doing.

Ciao

- viole

 

[ManSinha]

Humans are free moral agents, meaning we have the ability to make choices. The animal has no similar choice, but rather they follow instinct; plan. Humans have lost instinct ,in exchange for choice.

As an analogy, say you were part of AI; artificial intelligence, development team. The goal of AI, is for a computer program and hardware, that can make its own choices, and not just be an automaton that obeys its programing, 100%. It supposed to have free will, and be able to make decisions that are not anticipated. This is how you will know the AI is alive.

That is an interesting analogy - sorry I am getting to it somewhat late in the discussion - BUT if god is perfect - would there not have been parameters or guard rails for said AI? When things get out of control - eg when Eve moves towards the apple - for there to be a decision support warning?

Humor aside - that argument sadly falls on its face

IF the creator is perfect - then why the imperfections? Yes some evil and sufferings exist because certain individuals make poor choices - BUT what about those that are born mentally retarded? Or go on to develop Multiple Sclerosis or simply get cancer? Are we to presume that they are all sinners that are being punished for their sins? What of babies born with genetic abnormalities? What sin did they commit? to quote @viole

 

[InChrist]

That makes it all good then. At least for some, personally i am no fan of someone or something who made life in hos own image then murders it because he made it not to his own liking.

Change their behaviour to worship him, cool... why didnt he get it right first time, he is after all supposed to be omni-everything

According to scripture he killed everyone that makes is world wide genocide.

I wonder if ot would stand up in court if a killer pleaded "well i warned them"

He murdered and there is no excuse but biassed apologetics.

Except, again, it was not murder. The scriptures state it was judgment and righteous judgment by a righteous God who always judges correctly.
Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Genesis 18:25 The answer displayed throughout the passage and conversation between Abraham and God is YES, the Judge of all the earth does right.

God has chosen by designing humans in His image to give them FREEDOM. This attribute and capacity appears to be very important to God to the point that He will not violate human freedom to force someone to change against their will because Love must include freedom. His desire is to call out people from this temporary world who want an eternal life of real love and freedom.

 

[InChrist]

What does it mean?

It means realizing that He does not know what He is doing.

Ciao

- viole

Or, more likely you have no clue what God is doing and don't care to find out.

 

[InChrist]

The original flood myth that the Jews learned in Babylon was that the gods were annoyed because humans were noisy and there were so many of them. The Jews changed it to extreme wickedness.

Jesus referred to the flood of Noah and He was not talking about some Babylonian story of gods annoyed by noise.

Why do you call yourself a Christian if you deny Jesus' words?

 

[sooda]

Jesus referred to the flood of Noah and He was not talking about some Babylonian story of gods annoyed by noise.

Why do you call yourself a Christian if you deny Jesus' words?

Yes. What would you expect? Jesus was a Jew and he believed what he'd been taught. I'm not denying Jesus words.. I am saying the global flood was a myth from Sumer that predates Genesis by a thousand years and there is ample evidence of that.

Your faith should not be shattered if you appreciate the stories as didactic literature. :Look beyond the fairy tale to its meaning.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The fault of the fallible nature of humans should not cause the wrath of God, since God is responsible for the Creation of humanity as they are.

This closing part of a prayer by the Bab indicates to me what we are to fear of God;

"....Indeed shouldst Thou desire to confer blessing upon a servant Thou wouldst blot out from the realm of his heart every mention or disposition except Thine Own mention; and shouldst Thou ordain evil for a servant by reason of that which his hands have unjustly wrought before Thy face, Thou wouldst test him with the benefits of this world and of the next that he might become preoccupied therewith and forget Thy remembrance...."

The fear to e left to oneself, not mindful of God.

Regards Tony

 

[blü 2]

No, I have read all the passages used by skeptics who pull them out of context to make accusations against God's character.

The opposite of 'skeptical' is very often 'gullible'.

There is nothing 'out of context' in pointing to the God of the bible commanding invasive wars. The only fault alleged against those invaded is that they belonged to another tribe and therefore had their own tribal god. (It will not have escaped your notice that Yahweh began as a tribal god, making [his] covenant only with the one tribe.)

There is nothing 'out of context' in citing the occasions in the Tanakh where Yahweh is the instigator of human sacrifices, leading to two last-minute reprieves (Isaac, Jonah) and eight completed sacrifices (Jephthah's daughter, the seven sons of Saul). The NT is one long glorification of human sacrifice.

There is nothing 'out of context' in pointing out that nowhere in the bible is there a word against slavery ─ Paul tells slaves to be good and obedient, the Torah sets out rules for owning and bonking slaves, how to sell your daughter into slavery &c.

There is nothing 'out of context' in drawing attention to Yahweh directing massacres of conquered populations except the virgins, who are to be divided up among the troops.

There is nothing 'out of context' in remarking on Yahweh's homophobia, violent religious intolerance, and concept of women as property.

And so on.

It's not as if Yahweh were doing anything that the other gods of the Bronze Age and early iron age were not. But as examples of divine morality they're all grossly repulsive.

When this is done it speaks loud and clear that those who do so have no understanding of the history, culture (s), what is taking place at the time, why such accounts are even specifically included and preserved in the scriptures, or what God's eternal purpose is about.

I have a reasonable outline of ancient history and ancient cultures. I see religions as part of the history. I find fault with the idea that one particular deity of the era is to be protected from criticism ─ not least when [his] own book sets out the details.

And please state clearly for the record what 'God's eternal purpose' is, and how you know.

It is obvious that anyone who misuses the scriptures in this way has no desire or intention of knowing the truth

The one who can't see past the hero to the deeds attributed to [him], and who's only there to devise excuses for the inexcusable, isn't even looking for an accurate account of what actually happened in history ie the truth, no?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

He also created humanity irresponsible.

At the end of darkness and the beginning of light.

The light shines only when effort is made.

Regards Tony

 

[sooda]

What does it mean?

It means realizing that He does not know what He is doing.

Ciao

- viole

Are you familiar with the archaeology at Dilmun in Bahrain?
Dilmun (sometimes transliterated Telmun) is associated with ancient sites on the islands of Bahrain in the Persian Gulf. Because of its location along the sea trade routes linking Mesopotamia with the Indus Valley Civilization, Dilmun developed in the Bronze Age, from ca. 3000 BC, into one of the greatest entrepots of trade of the ancient world.

There is both literary and archaeological evidence for the trade between Mesopotamia and the Indus Valley (probably correctly identified with the land called Meluhha in Akkadian). Impressions of clay seals from the Indus Valley city of Harappa were evidently used to seal bundles of merchandise, as clay seal impressions with cord or sack marks on the reverse side testify.

continued

Dilmun - Tilmun - Creation - Aliens - Middle East - Crystalinks

 

[sooda]

If God is Almighty, which, I believe God is, then a creature attempting to make suggestions or imply that such God doesn't know what He's doing is extremely arrogant.

The fact that God made humans in His image does not mean humans are perfect beings... as is God. Logically, that could never be since there is only One unique God, One unique Almighty Creator, Spirit, so any creature, is less than this God Being. Made in the image of God, means God gave humans the attributes and ability to reflect His love, righteousness, purity, etc. and the capacity to make the choice to freely do so.

What does it mean that humanity is made in the image of God (imago dei)?

Got question is a very poor source for any serious scholar.