The wrath of God

[Remté]

So he created irresponsibility as something that we were free to choose?

Not per ce. He gave us a free will. We can do right and we can do wrong.

 

[shunyadragon]

He gave them a choice.

That is part of the problem, yes, maybe, but not necessarily. It remains a problem that God created humanity as they are good and bad, therefore he must take responsibility.

 

[InChrist]

If god exists it should save all the wrath for itself, as it supposedly created human nature.

God created all things good to start with, yet gave human beings freewill, choice in order to have the ability to authentically love. It is not God's fault if humans have chosen to abuse the gift of freedom choosing wrong and evil over good.

 

[Windwalker]

Not per ce. He gave us a free will. We can do right and we can do wrong.

Where did wrong come from then, in order for us to choose it?

 

[InChrist]

You really need to find a better source than your apologetics one that younused. Of course if one does one quickly finds that Biblical slavery was probably just as bad as slavery in the South.

I used two different sources and I consider them to be pretty accurate.
Slavery during biblical times was most often people selling themselves as indentured servants to pay off their debts or as a means of financial survival. It was not like the slavery of the South in the U.S. where people were kidnapped and taken to be slaves. The Bible forbid that.
Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession. Ex. 21:16

 

[shunyadragon]

God created all things good to start with, yet gave human beings freewill, choice in order to have the ability to authentically love. It is not God's fault if humans have chosen to abuse the gift of freedom choosing wrong and evil over good.

Does not work. This line of reasoning makes God an incompetent creator where the humans are 'set up' to fail in the Garden of Eden, where being Created fallible, eventually would 'Fall' to temptation, and of course the incompetent God creator must take responsibility for the mess God Created. Bad story line for a grade D movie.

 

[InChrist]

I dont believe murdering the entire fauna* and flora of a planet except a close buddy, the buddies close family and about 17 million animals to be loving or just.

* Including innocent children and pregnant women along with their fetus.


I do not believe a god who murders the innocent firstborn children of an entire country just to make a point to be rational.

Seems more of a manic psychopath to me

It would sure be the action of a psychopath if a finite human being attempted any kind of such action, but the Creator of heaven and earth is not a mere sinful human. God is the Creator who distinguishes between good and evil and knows the difference perfectly. Before the flood, the scriptures indicate that the evil and wickedness was EXTREME and pervasive everywhere, except among Noah and his family. God gave everyone 120 years of warning and the opportunity to change their evil behavior and therefore avoid his judgment and destruction. It was not murder, it was judgment by God against evil. Judgment which is always right, just, and never comes without plenty of warning.

 

[InChrist]

Does not work. This line of reasoning makes God an incompetent creator where the humans are 'set up' to fail in the Garden of Eden, where being Created fallible, eventually would 'Fall' to temptation, and of course the incompetent God creator must take responsibility for the mess God Created. Bad story line for a grade D movie.

It works and works perfectly. God gave humans the choice. That choice for goodness and doing right was/is always there. No set-up. You can say that God knew we would fall short of His perfect standard for the simple reason that we are limited creatures and NOT God, but even in that God has provided His perfection available to all who seek in the perfect righteousness of Christ. A free gift to all who accept.

 

[InChrist]

View attachment 27133

Ditto.

Haha funny. (not).

I don't think self-centered human beings would have the slightest concept of real love were it not for the revelation of God in the scriptures, that we are made in His image, and the ultimate expression of love displayed by Jesus Christ

 

[InChrist]

Not quite.

The god of the bible is murderous, vengeful, threatening, intolerant, homophobic, freely admits to telling lies and making evil, orders invasive wars, total massacres of the conquered, except that the virgins are to be spared and divided among the troops, instigates human sacrifices (not just the famous one), supports slavery, and so on.
Speaking as a loving parent and grandparent, and friend, I can confidently say that God doesn't act like a loving parent or friend. [He] just sits on [his] hands, and neither says nor does. Except, to be fair, George Dubya Bush said Jesus approved his invasion of Iraq in advance (assuming Jesus is God).

When I read the stuff you imply about the god you are talking about, I know it's not the God of the Bible.

 

[shunyadragon]

It works and works perfectly. God gave humans the choice. That choice for goodness and doing right was/is always there. No set-up. You can say that God knew we would fall short of His perfect standard for the simple reason that we are limited creatures and NOT God, but even in that God has provided His perfection available to all who seek in the perfect righteousness of Christ. A free gift to all who accept.

Still . . . you have not justified why the 'Wrath of God' was necessary when God is responsible for creating humans God knew would 'Fall,' and then condemn all humanity to suffer, because of the 'Fall' branded with the stain of 'Original Sin' of Adam and Eve.

A story straight out of ancient Sumerian mythology older than any known Biblical texts.

 

[Windwalker]

Haha funny. (not).

I don't think self-centered human beings would have the slightest concept of real love were it not for the revelation of God in the scriptures, that we are made in His image, and the ultimate expression of love displayed by Jesus Christ

You see, you've got that wrong. People have, and can know the Love of God, before scriptures are ever introduced to them. I would be one of those. That you may have been introduced to the Love of God, which I would hope is true at some level, through scripture, that is great. It does not mean that is the only way to God. And what is in that comic, I find to be 100% accurate. If you read scripture from your ego, you see your ego as God. If you read scripture without Love, you don't see God. You see your own ego.

 

[InChrist]

Still . . . you have not justified why the 'Wrath of God' was necessary when God is responsible for creating humans God knew would 'Fall,' and then condemn all humanity to suffer, because of the 'Fall' branded with the stain of original sin.

My understanding concerning original sin is simply that because the first humans sinned all humans have inherited the tendency to sin, yet each person sins by their own choice and they are accountable for their own sins, not those of their ancestors. God's wrath is against all that is wrong, out of order and everyone has the opportunity to be purified and made whole for eternity if willing to surrender their sinful ways.

 

[InChrist]

You see, you've got that wrong. People have, and can know the Love of God, before scriptures are ever introduced to them. I would be one of those. That you may have been introduced to the Love of God, which I would hope is true at some level, through scripture, that is great. It does not mean that is the only way to God. And what is in that comic, I find to be 100% accurate. If you read scripture from your ego, you see your ego as God. If you read scripture without Love, you don't see God. You see your own ego.

Well, I have to agree to a certain point because right now in Islamic countries many people are being saved directly by Jesus Christ and His love, but their encounters and their following beliefs never go against revealed word in the scriptures.
I really don't understand all the stuff you say about ego. It seems to me that depending on yourself and your own ability rather than submitting to God's word is more of your own ego thing.

 

[Windwalker]

I really don't understand all the stuff you say about ego. It seems to me that depending on yourself and your own ability rather than submitting to God's word is more of your own ego thing.

Surrendering to God, is not the same thing as being strict with your reading of scripture. Nothing I have said ever fits in with "your own ability". Never.

 

[blü 2]

When I read the stuff you imply about the god you are talking about, I know it's not the God of the Bible.

You can't have read your bible. It's all in there ─ no one has to make it up.

Do you want me to set out references for you?

 

[ChristineM]

It would sure be the action of a psychopath if a finite human being attempted any kind of such action, but the Creator of heaven and earth is not a mere sinful human. God is the Creator who distinguishes between good and evil and knows the difference perfectly. Before the flood, the scriptures indicate that the evil and wickedness was EXTREME and pervasive everywhere, except among Noah and his family. God gave everyone 120 years of warning and the opportunity to change their evil behavior and therefore avoid his judgment and destruction. It was not murder, it was judgment by God against evil. Judgment which is always right, just, and never comes without plenty of warning.

That makes it all good then. At least for some, personally i am no fan of someone or something who made life in hos own image then murders it because he made it not to his own liking.

Change their behaviour to worship him, cool... why didnt he get it right first time, he is after all supposed to be omni-everything

According to scripture he killed everyone that makes is world wide genocide.

I wonder if ot would stand up in court if a killer pleaded "well i warned them"

He murdered and there is no excuse but biassed apologetics.

 

[sooda]

I used two different sources and I consider them to be pretty accurate.
Slavery during biblical times was most often people selling themselves as indentured servants to pay off their debts or as a means of financial survival. It was not like the slavery of the South in the U.S. where people were kidnapped and taken to be slaves. The Bible forbid that.
Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession. Ex. 21:16

They are only speaking of other Jews.. NOT Gentiles.. They were allowed to kidnap and enslave Gentiles. You need MORE study.. When they say "love your neighbor"... they mean your Jewish neighbor.

 

[sooda]

It would sure be the action of a psychopath if a finite human being attempted any kind of such action, but the Creator of heaven and earth is not a mere sinful human. God is the Creator who distinguishes between good and evil and knows the difference perfectly. Before the flood, the scriptures indicate that the evil and wickedness was EXTREME and pervasive everywhere, except among Noah and his family. God gave everyone 120 years of warning and the opportunity to change their evil behavior and therefore avoid his judgment and destruction. It was not murder, it was judgment by God against evil. Judgment which is always right, just, and never comes without plenty of warning.

The original flood myth that the Jews learned in Babylon was that the gods were annoyed because humans were noisy and there were so many of them. The Jews changed it to extreme wickedness.

 

[sooda]

Pretty sure original sin isn't necessary. Don't meet many perfect people?

Jesus didn't believe in Original Sin. Neither Jews nor Muslims believe in original sin.