Theistic (Biblical) Evolution: How Does This Sucker work?

[Subduction Zone]

Don't transfer all the color commentary from the other thread into this one.

The one where you lost so badly you tucked your tail between your legs and ran?

I do not think you get it. We were trying to determine what the bible means when it uses the term "Kinds" in this context.

We are trying to reconcile our selves with the following verse and those like it:

New International Version
God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

This would mean that evolution is limited and common descent is untrue. You need to provide proof that evolution has no limits and hat common descent is true. You need to provide a counter to the verse above. This is impossible.

No, I get it. What you do not understand is that many Christians know that Genesis is not to be taken literally at all. They accept the fact that life is the product of evolution. They simply think that God had a hand in it. What you are supporting is creation, not theistic evolution. We know that evolution is not limited. Only the very ignorant believe that and they cannot support that belief at all.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Not according to either of the links I supplied. What is "regular" evolution?

BTW I thought you posting to me in another thread was a resounding no. Your being very inconsistent.

I know that, but those were creationist links. They were not theistic evolution links. Most Christians worldwide accept the fact of evolution. The belief in the myths of Genesis is mostly a U.S. bit of ignorance.

By "regular evolution" I mean the modern synthesis, no God need apply. Theistic evolution is very similar to that except they believe that God guided it.

 

[1robin]

The one where you lost so badly you tucked your tail between your legs and ran?

Ok, I am warning you. Don't bring all that color commentary crap into this thread like you did here and be brief or I will end this discussion as well. You are your own worst enemy. You have been warned so it is up to you.

No, I get it. What you do not understand is that many Christians know that Genesis is not to be taken literally at all.

I don't take all of Genesis literally so I am very well aware of the fact that some of us don't. I am not a young earth guy for example.

They accept the fact that life is the product of evolution. They simply think that God had a hand in it. What you are supporting is creation, not theistic evolution. We know that evolution is not limited. Only the very ignorant believe that and they cannot support that belief at all.

Provide proof that all life is the product of materialism or stop claiming it is. Your a ton of conclusion based on an gram of evidence. I want data not commentary.

Again, if you keep doing what you did in the other thread and in this post this discussion won't last long.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok, I am warning you. Don't bring all that color commentary crap into this thread like you did here and be brief or I will end this discussion as well. You are your own worst enemy. You have been warned so it is up to you.

Don't earn the "color commentary" and there will not be any.

I don't take all of Genesis literally so I am very well aware of the fact that some of us don't. I am not a young earth guy for example.

Provide proof that all life is the product of materialism or stop claiming it is. Your a ton of conclusion based on an gram of evidence. I want data not commentary.

Again, if you keep doing what you did in the other thread and in this post this discussion won't last long.

You would have to learn quite a bit of science to see that life is the product of evolution. I cannot educate you by myself. I can start you with some links to biology resources. But the simple fact is that there is no scientific evidence for creationism in any form and there are mountains of evidence that support the theory of evolution.

Perhaps we should start first with the scientific method. I am pretty sure that you do not understand the scientific method because you linked AiG as a source. To even work at AiG one must promise not to use the scientific method.


And in the other thread I only pointed out your errors that you had no response to. That was why the "color commentary" began. If you debate honestly there will be no need for any. That mans admitting that you are wrong when you are shown to be wrong.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Meanwhile while waiting for people to cool down here is link to theistic evolution:

Theistic evolution - Wikipedia


The name and concept appears to be the brain child of Dr. Frances Collins. A Christian that also accepts evolution. As he put it "evolution is real, but that it was set in motion by God".

This is not the silly "kinds" based idea of Ken Ham or other frauds. He simply accepts evolution but thinks that God had a hand in it.

 

[osgart]

Theistic evolution. Thats one freaky god! I dont know if i would call it god. Gods have total freedom and power. This god is definetly bargain basement cheap on materials, and cant quite get a handle on the universe.

The creative force in the universe is probably bound to this universe, and is more of a force than a God. If intelligence is eternal, than life exists in endless numbers and probably always has.

Evolution is a fact but.... who knows what intelligence drives it.

It could also be that intelligence emerged from endless possibility and formed us all. Some blind intelligence that goes awry and creates insanely. Its a trial and error prop up life is.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Once again to help Christians that do not understand this concept. First off followers of theistic evolution accept the sciences. They do not deny reality to believe in God. Biologos is a Christian organization started by Frances Collins, once again a Christian that accepts reality and clearly does not take Genesis literally at all. Here is a link to the organization that he started:

BioLogos

There are quite a few articles on evolution there with explanations for Christians that are confused by dishonest creationist sites.

 

[whirlingmerc]

It's so sad to see people write like this, as if they actually knew what they are talking about. First of all, evolution has NOTHING to do with first causes---how life came about. It ONLY addresses how life CHANGES. Secondly, there is no such biological law, as you've made up here, that suggests life comes form life. Putting out nonsense like this does your credibility no good, so may want to think twice about concocting "facts" again. *Sheesh!*

.

Evolution is more like looking at the dots and speculating a story of how they connect
however as the Cambrian evidence shows all major animal groups appear in the record fully formed
so regarding stories, " the Emperor's New Clothes" comes to mind.. The evolutional emperor is naked but...

 

[whirlingmerc]

Once again to help Christians that do not understand this concept. First off followers of theistic evolution accept the sciences. They do not deny reality to believe in God. Biologos is a Christian organization started by Frances Collins, once again a Christian that accepts reality and clearly does not take Genesis literally at all. Here is a link to the organization that he started:

BioLogos

There are quite a few articles on evolution there with explanations for Christians that are confused by dishonest creationist sites.

One of the reasons I don't pay attention to Biologos and creationists neither deny reality or the scientific method... not the data but the interpretation and the naturalistic assumptions behind it that are the issue

 

[Subduction Zone]

Evolution is more like looking at the dots and speculating a story of how they connect
however as the Cambrian evidence shows all major animal groups appear in the record fully formed
so regarding stories, " the Emperor's New Clothes" comes to mind.. The evolutional emperor is naked but...

Why do you keep repeating this refuted argument?

 

[Subduction Zone]

One of the reasons I don't pay attention to Biologos and creationists neither deny reality or the scientific method... not the data but the interpretation and the naturalistic assumptions behind it that are the issue

Please show me a creationist that follows the scientific method.. Do you realize that to work at most creationist sites that one must swear not to use the scientific method?

 

[Audie]

Evolution is more like looking at the dots and speculating a story of how they connect
however as the Cambrian evidence shows all major animal groups appear in the record fully formed
so regarding stories, " the Emperor's New Clothes" comes to mind.. The evolutional emperor is naked but...

A 3 yr old saying football is just people lining up and knocking
eachother down comes to mind.

Like the 3 yr old, you dont even know how silly you sound.

 

[Audie]

Why do you keep repeating this refuted argument?

Why?


Grsteful Dead:

"Its the same story the crow told me
Its the only one you know."

 

[Milton Platt]

HERE is Wikipedia's source for the quote.

.

Thanks for the link. He is *almost* right, isn't he? But as a scientist, he should know that if you want to posit a causative agent to explain a phenomenon, you have to demonstrate that the causative agent is exists before you can assign actions to it.

 

[Milton Platt]

Evolution is more like looking at the dots and speculating a story of how they connect
however as the Cambrian evidence shows all major animal groups appear in the record fully formed
so regarding stories, " the Emperor's New Clothes" comes to mind.. The evolutional emperor is naked but...

The Cambrian period lasted at least 20 million years million years from start to finish. Hardly an "explosion".

But over the past several years, discoveries have begun to yield some tantalizing clues about the end of the Ediacaran. Evidence gathered from the Namibian reefs and other sites suggests that earlier theories were overly simplistic — that the Cambrian explosion actually emerged out of a complex interplay between small environmental changes that triggered major evolutionary developments.

Ancient fossils sport modern brains

Some scientists now think that a small, perhaps temporary, increase in oxygen suddenly crossed an ecological threshold, enabling the emergence of predators. The rise of carnivory would have set off an evolutionary arms race that led to the burst of complex body types and behaviours that fill the oceans today. “This is the most significant event in Earth evolution,” says Guy Narbonne, a palaeobiologist at Queen's University in Kingston, Canada. “The advent of pervasive carnivory, made possible by oxygenation, is likely to have been a major trigger.”

 

[Skwim]

Thanks for the link. He is *almost* right, isn't he? But as a scientist, he should know that if you want to posit a causative agent to explain a phenomenon, you have to demonstrate that the causative agent is exists before you can assign actions to it.

He seems no less driven to fit the science tab into the Christian slot, than any other Christian with a need to hang onto their theology while begrudgingly giving a nod to reason. An understandable, but hardly admirable, stance.

.

 

[whirlingmerc]

The Cambrian period lasted at least 20 million years million years from start to finish. Hardly an "explosion".

But over the past several years, discoveries have begun to yield some tantalizing clues about the end of the Ediacaran. Evidence gathered from the Namibian reefs and other sites suggests that earlier theories were overly simplistic — that the Cambrian explosion actually emerged out of a complex interplay between small environmental changes that triggered major evolutionary developments.

Ancient fossils sport modern brains

Some scientists now think that a small, perhaps temporary, increase in oxygen suddenly crossed an ecological threshold, enabling the emergence of predators. The rise of carnivory would have set off an evolutionary arms race that led to the burst of complex body types and behaviours that fill the oceans today. “This is the most significant event in Earth evolution,” says Guy Narbonne, a palaeobiologist at Queen's University in Kingston, Canada. “The advent of pervasive carnivory, made possible by oxygenation, is likely to have been a major trigger.”

so the way to improve is to have creatures try to gobble you.... interesting speculation

I would say it went the other way. Dinosaurs only could live along with the larger versions of animals and insects if there was high oxygen and pressure but with the decrease of magnetic field possibly due to the cataclysm of the flood the previously oxygen rich higher pressure atmosphere dropped.... explaining lots of extinctions

... along with the shorter lifespan of humans post flood

but yet the major animal groups appearing fully formed without transitions in the cambrian layers
is quite consistent with a creationary view and the soft skinned fragile animals found in post flood sediment speaks of rapid burial...

 

[whirlingmerc]

Why?


Grsteful Dead:

"Its the same story the crow told me
Its the only one you know."

True, there are no dots to connect in the Cambrian explosion... all the major animal groups are already there at the start

"Almost every metazoan phylum with hard parts, and many that lack hard parts, made its first appearance in the Cambrian." The Cambrian Period "Also during the Cambrian, the oceans became oxygenated. Although there was plentiful atmospheric oxygen by the beginning of the period, it wasn't until the Cambrian that there was a sufficient reduction in the number of oxygen-depleting bacteria to permit higher oxygen levels in the waters. This dissolved oxygen may have triggered the "Cambrian Explosion" — when most of the major groups of animals, especially those with hard shells, first appeared in the fossil record."

but oxygen triggering the Cambrian explosion would be more rightly called speculation and not theory and some evolutionists speculate the opposite... lack of oxygen sparked the explosion... sense speculation is more fitting
https://www.economist.com/science-a...s-caused-by-a-lack-of-oxygen-not-an-abundance

 

[metis]

so the way to improve is to have creatures try to gobble you.... interesting speculation

I would say it went the other way. Dinosaurs only could live along with the larger versions of animals and insects if there was high oxygen and pressure but with the decrease of magnetic field possibly due to the cataclysm of the flood the previously oxygen rich higher pressure atmosphere dropped.... explaining lots of extinctions

... along with the shorter lifespan of humans post flood

but yet the major animal groups appearing fully formed without transitions in the cambrian layers
is quite consistent with a creationary view and the soft skinned fragile animals found in post flood sediment speaks of rapid burial...

There simply is not one shred of evidence that posits a worldwide flood, plus the fossil evidence does indicates transitions regardless of what your pseudo-science sources may tell you.

BTW, according to the Genesis 1:1 creation account, creation stopped on the 6th day ("yom") and it must mean an actual day because on the 7th day ("yom") it says God rested ("Shabbat").

 

[whirlingmerc]

There simply is not one shred of evidence that posits a worldwide flood, plus the fossil evidence does indicates transitions regardless of what your pseudo-science sources may tell you.

BTW, according to the Genesis 1:1 creation account, creation stopped on the 6th day ("yom") and it must mean an actual day because on the 7th day ("yom") it says God rested ("Shabbat").

By not a shred... you would be overlooking billions of dead things buried in rock layers all over the earth.
Just making a fossil is usual and realizes lots of water mud and minerals and a flood will do it