Theists and the Truth

[TagliatelliMonster]

Speaking of Truth: if you were son of some important banker, or if you belonged to the banking élites of Brussels, would you tell me?

Likely not, considering your blind hatred and conspiratory mentality.
You'ld probably stalk and troll me all the time.

Kind of like how I likely wouldn't openly be gay in some hellhole in Texas.

I doubt it. That's why truth is always something relative. Difficult to obtain.
That said, I studied banking law and I know what I am talking about.

Whatever man

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The fact that you are even conscious of the value of meaning should be proof to your thick head that you are not simply a machine!

Again, these are your words, not mine.
Perhaps you should stop with the silly strawmen.

After the Sun eats the earth and all trace of this planet ever existing your contribution to anything wont exist!

Correct.

Your life ultimately meant nothing!

My life has meaning today.

For those of use who survive and awake in the next world, we carry with us the accumulated experience of spiritual , moral and ethical growth. For us meaning never dies.

So you believe (without proper reason).

I'ld rather say that the only reason our life has meaning, is because it will end.
Life would be meaningless if it goes on for eternity.

I wouldn't enjoy or watch a movie that doesn't end either.
Things have meaning because they are finite.

The moral, ethical Atheist who sees meaning in his life is one in belligerent denial about his heavenly father who gave him the GIFT of such a life!

No.

 

[Stevicus]

Yes, every society has elites. Yes, those elites, by definition, are in control of most of the resources. They also tell everyone else what they want to hear in order to stay in power. Often, they are brutal and cruel in their actions. I don't think anyone doubts that.

That said, the elites themselves are far from unified. They have conflicting interests and goals. That means that one set of elites is often quite happy to point out the shenanigans of any other set of elites. This is a part of a continual jockeying for position and influence. Even a casual reading of history shows many examples of this.

This makes it quite hard to keep secrets over the long term. There are just too many competing elites (or potential new elites) that would love to let the secrets out. Also, every new generation has its own perspective and goals. That means that it is often the case that there are shifts in the elites that can reveal actions of previous generations.

So, no, I do not think that those in control are a bunch of angels. I think that, in general, they will do what they can to keep power. But I also know there are those who *want* to be in power and would like to become the new set of elites. This is always the case. Seldom do the new elites have the same interests and goals as the old ones.

And this means that any conspiracy theory that suggests a unified group of elites conspiring over the course of generations is probably bunk.

I think the great challenge for the political elite in any society has been how to manage the "cattle," the hoi polloi. This challenge has become even greater since the industrial revolution and the massive population growth, making the "herd" just that much more difficult to manage.

And, of course, you make a good point about those at the elite level not always agreeing with each other and competing with each other for power. That's a natural consequence of politics - and it's happened in empires and within the Church hierarchy. It happens here, too. I don't think the elite are unified in any way, and in many ways, at least looking at the government's overall policies and results, they seem more wishy-washy and not all that bright.

I don't really know who's conspiring to do what, although I can't deny the possibility. I don't know what goes on in the inner circles of power, but we can look at what is being said publicly and how policies and practices impact on the public at large. See how well they're doing at managing the "cattle," who seem to be getting restless and inching towards a stampede.

What I find interesting is not so much the "whodunit" aspect of conspiracy theories, but more how such monumental events and their aftermath can affect the psyche of the body politic. Taken within the context of the prevailing political views and the various factions in play, it's really not surprising that there are conspiracy theories and other assorted loud talk about the government and the elite, however they are perceived and defined.

Another aspect of conspiracy theories is that it plants the idea in people's heads that the Powers That Be are immensely powerful, far beyond that of mortal men. It creates a kind of "mystique" and mythos which makes them seem larger than life, which generates a great deal of fear of the elite and what they can do to anyone who crosses them. If people believe they can take out the President, then they wouldn't think twice about taking out the average Joe if necessary, so average Joe is just going to do his job and mind his own business, even if he talks up conspiracy theories on his free time.

 

[Estro Felino]

Likely not, considering your blind hatred and conspiratory mentality.

I guess I fight for my own ideals.
Everyone should.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I guess I fight for my own ideals.
Everyone should.

Shame that your ideals are rotten fascist potatoes.

 

[Estro Felino]

Shame that your ideals are rotten fascist potatoes.

Maybe you didn't see who our PM is.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Maybe you didn't see who our PM is.

Yeah, I'ld be ashamed.

 

[Colt]

Again, these are your words, not mine.
Perhaps you should stop with the silly strawmen.



Correct.



My life has meaning today.



So you believe (without proper reason).

I'ld rather say that the only reason our life has meaning, is because it will end.
Life would be meaningless if it goes on for eternity.

I wouldn't enjoy or watch a movie that doesn't end either.
Things have meaning because they are finite.


No.

LoL! he says "proper reason". God is Love and love has no "proper reason".

My life has meaning in eternity not just some humanistic fart in time!

In eternity there will always be more to discover about God. Suicide is for the lazy!

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

LoL! he says "proper reason". God is Love and love has no "proper reason".

My life has meaning in eternity not just some humanistic fart in time!

In eternity there will always be more to discover about God. Suicide is for the lazy!

This is just random babbling.
Whenever you are ready to have a proper intellectual discussion, I'm here for you.

I'm not interested in an e-peen pissing contest.

 

[Colt]

This is just random babbling.
Whenever you are ready to have a proper intellectual discussion, I'm here for you.

I'm not interested in an e-peen pissing contest.

Let me know when you grow up and develop and intellect.

 

[Stevicus]

In the end the Ambassador confesses, he says the end (American interests) justifies the means.
Spain and Italy have been very active in the mission of doing justice after 40 years, for what happened in Latin America. We call it the Trial Condor, after the Operation Condor. Desaparecidos 'italiani', processo Condor a Roma: 8 ergastoli e 19 assoluzioni
Here nobody has ever doubted that the CIA was in on it. Nobody.

But we do a distinction. The CIA is not the American people.
The American people are victims too.

Many might also see themselves as beneficiaries, too, as there are many who relish the "good life" that comes from living in America. It's similar to the central idea of patriotism and honoring the military who fight for freedom - or at least, that's what many people believe. Of course, there are still plenty of victims within America, but even they might get deceived.

That's what I don't understand. The American commoners who are often victimized by the Deep State will defend their reputation, no matter the cost.
Here nobody has ever defended our secret services. They are servants of the State, so they must be held accountable for what they do, a priori.

When I was growing up, people didn't necessarily use phrases like "deep state" or "conspiracy theory," but there were a lot of people who made generalized statements about the government, the corporations, and various other wealthy and powerful institutions and individuals. I recall the Bilderberg Group was mentioned, along with the Trilateral Commission. It became a common trope in the overall popular culture, the whole idea that the government was not the benevolent do-gooder that many were led to believe.

I just see it as power politics at work. I think it's a given that, in the political realm, people and factions will try to angle and leverage for as much power as they can hold on to.

There were those who defended Nixon and the US military during the Vietnam War, while it was the liberals, progressives, and anti-war activists who were charging them with wrongdoing. Conspiracy theories about JFK were somewhat separate, although they generally fit in with the overall perceptions which were being formed in the minds of the public. JFK was a liberal, and the idea that some cabal of evil men wanted to kill him because they wanted to stop liberalism and civil rights was easy to believe within such a context.

Now, it seems to take on a different form, at least as far as how it's dealt with and how the defenders of which you speak came out. I recall when Oliver Stone's movie JFK came out, and that renewed the public discussion about the assassination, which also brought about a rather strong response from others who supported the Warren Report and the contention that Oswald and Ruby both acted alone. "Case Closed." The internet was also becoming more widespread, and the discussions of these kinds of things saw a wider audience and following. There's the CTers (Conspiracy Theorits) and the LNers (Lone Nutters) both making their cases, with a share of followers and detractors. In some of the online discussions I've seen, I realized that it's difficult to take a somewhat "agnostic" or neutral position on the matter. This was especially true with the LNers, who almost seemed as if they were quite angry with the CTers.

 

[Estro Felino]

Many might also see themselves as beneficiaries, too, as there are many who relish the "good life" that comes from living in America. It's similar to the central idea of patriotism and honoring the military who fight for freedom - or at least, that's what many people believe. Of course, there are still plenty of victims within America, but even they might get deceived.

Thousands of American soldiers died in the Iraqi War.
Colin Powell admitted it was all a lie. 'He lied': Iraqis still blame Powell for role in Iraq war
Of course he was just the spokesperson of the Deep State.
So...I don't see where these benefits are, honestly.

Now, it seems to take on a different form, at least as far as how it's dealt with and how the defenders of which you speak came out. I recall when Oliver Stone's movie JFK came out, and that renewed the public discussion about the assassination, which also brought about a rather strong response from others who supported the Warren Report and the contention that Oswald and Ruby both acted alone. "Case Closed." The internet was also becoming more widespread, and the discussions of these kinds of things saw a wider audience and following. There's the CTers (Conspiracy Theorits) and the LNers (Lone Nutters) both making their cases, with a share of followers and detractors. In some of the online discussions I've seen, I realized that it's difficult to take a somewhat "agnostic" or neutral position on the matter. This was especially true with the LNers, who almost seemed as if they were quite angry with the CTers.

The problem is that they didn't just kill JFK.
They killed MLK and RFK too. MLK was murdered in April 1968. RFK in June 1968. It's statistically impossible it's a coincidence.
They did anything to let the people bust them.

Honestly, I will tell you from the bottom of my heart, I don't believe that those who believe the deaths of the two Kennedys are unrelated, are in good faith. Honestly, I don't think that.

 

[lukethethird]

Theists and the Truth​

Can you say "oxymoron"?

 

[Polymath257]

Thousands of American soldiers died in the Iraqi War.
Colin Powell admitted it was all a lie. 'He lied': Iraqis still blame Powell for role in Iraq war

Yes. A lot of people lost a lot of respect for Powell because of this.

Of course he was just the spokesperson of the Deep State.

Um. He was a spokesperson of the *state*. His role was not hidden at all.

So...I don't see where these benefits are, honestly.




The problem is that they didn't just kill JFK.
They killed MLK and RFK too. MLK was murdered in April 1968. RFK in June 1968. It's statistically impossible it's a coincidence.

Don't forget Malcom X. But yes, given the polarization of the times, it is quite possible the murders had nothing to do with each other.

They did anything to let the people bust them.

Honestly, I will tell you from the bottom of my heart, I don't believe that those who believe the deaths of the two Kennedys are unrelated, are in good faith. Honestly, I don't think that.

They are related in that the victims were related. Too many other differences to think them directly related.

 

[Estro Felino]

Yes. A lot of people lost a lot of respect for Powell because of this.

This shows that politicians, public servants lie. All the time. And their lies imply the deaths of thousands of people.
So why should I believe that they said the truth about the two Kennedys?
Give me one single reason why I should believe that.

They are related in that the victims were related. Too many other differences to think them directly related.

Sirhan was neither a wizard nor a seer. So he couldn't know in advance that RFK would go through the pantry area.
So someone told him to hide behind the ice machine in the pantry area.
And then this person accompanied RFK through the pantry area to meet his killer.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Let me know when you grow up and develop and intellect.

Here come the ad hominems....
Typical.

 

[Colt]

Here come the ad hominems....
Typical.

You can dish it out!

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You can dish it out!

Projecting again

 

[joelr]

I understand. But I am not interested in the nature of my reality, but in the events that took place already, and that I believe were covered up with a veil. So I just said that in the Christian Afterlife there is no veil over the events of history.

How do you know about this afterlife?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I can give you an example: Brexiteers believe it is the truth that the EU is run by supranational, bad entities. That's their truth. Remainers believe in the opposite truth. Where is the truth?

In the pudding. Not in what people "believe".