Theists and the Truth

[mikkel_the_dane]

Im not interested in hypotheticals, i answered as an atheist, as me. Fact and reality are objective.

How is worthless objective?

 

[Stevicus]

I think that what brings all theists (or nearly) together is that they believe that the Truth will be unveiled someday.
Most of them believe that when we die, we find out every thing that was hidden from us in life.
For example, I believe that when I die, God will tell me all the things I want to know about the greatest mysteries of our time.
Whether JFK was really assassinated by the order of the US Deep State; whether the Deep Church killed John Paul I; whether the financial élites of Brussels maliciously boycott the prosperity of European peoples.
That's what my Catholic priest told me when I was little: don't worry, Jesus will answer all your questions, because in the Afterlife there is no deception or lying.


I wonder whether atheists are saddened by the fact that certain truths will never be revealed. In life, I mean.
What do you atheists think of the Truth? The historical Truth?
Do you strive for it?

I'm not saddened by it. There will always be things I don't know. If it's conceivable that one could know *everything* after one reaches the Afterlife, that would be an awful lot of information. And not just on Earth either. Theoretically, we would know about all the governments and corruption on other planets, too.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm not saddened by it. There will always be things I don't know. If it's conceivable that one could know *everything* after one reaches the Afterlife, that would be an awful lot of information. And not just on Earth either. Theoretically, we would know about all the governments and corruption on other planets, too.

Also...but you forget that we believe there is eternity, when we die.
So there is all the time in the world...

By the way...I do understand that it's a very difficult concept to explain. But as a theist, I believe that God and Truth are the same thing. God is Truth and Justice.
I also understand that we theists can sound dreamers or similar. Or that we delude ourselves.
The search for Truth is not something depending on my free will. It's something that exists a priori within me.

 

[Stevicus]

Also...but you forget that we believe there is eternity, when we die.
So there is all the time in the world...

By the way...I do understand that it's a very difficult concept to explain. But as a theist, I believe that God and Truth are the same thing. God is Truth and Justice.
I also understand that we theists can sound dreamers or similar. Or that we delude ourselves.
The search for Truth is not something depending on my free will. It's something that exists a priori within me.

I can see that, and I agree that it's worthwhile to search for and know the truth. However, I might also wonder whether it would even be relevant or important to know at that level. I've heard some express the idea that once you're dead and in Heaven, the mundane, earthly life is left behind and doesn't really much matter anymore.

As an example, I had a bicycle stolen from me when I was 7 years old. I never did find out who stole it, and even if I found out today, it probably wouldn't even matter anymore. Knowing that particular truth would not benefit me today.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I think that what brings all theists (or nearly) together is that they believe that the Truth will be unveiled someday.
Most of them believe that when we die, we find out every thing that was hidden from us in life.
For example, I believe that when I die, God will tell me all the things I want to know about the greatest mysteries of our time.
Whether JFK was really assassinated by the order of the US Deep State; whether the Deep Church killed John Paul I; whether the financial élites of Brussels maliciously boycott the prosperity of European peoples.
That's what my Catholic priest told me when I was little: don't worry, Jesus will answer all your questions, because in the Afterlife there is no deception or lying.


I wonder whether atheists are saddened by the fact that certain truths will never be revealed. In life, I mean.
What do you atheists think of the Truth? The historical Truth?
Do you strive for it?

And what do you do when absolutely everything is answered? Why bother to think? You already know. Why bother to dream?
Your reality is complete, and nothing can be added to it. Nothing to learn, nothing to wonder about, nothing to hope or strive for.

Sounds utterly barren to me -- especially if it goes on for eternity.

 

[Estro Felino]

I can see that, and I agree that it's worthwhile to search for and know the truth. However, I might also wonder whether it would even be relevant or important to know at that level. I've heard some express the idea that once you're dead and in Heaven, the mundane, earthly life is left behind and doesn't really much matter anymore.

As an example, I had a bicycle stolen from me when I was 7 years old. I never did find out who stole it, and even if I found out today, it probably wouldn't even matter anymore. Knowing that particular truth would not benefit me today.

Of course but I was speaking of universally known issues like JFK's assassination and the Vatican secrets. I think our society, politics and economy depend on those truths.

 

[Quintessence]

I think that what brings all theists (or nearly) together is that they believe that the Truth will be unveiled someday.

Speaking as one of those theists - the polytheistic and animistic variety - I really don't know what you're talking about here.

Certainly anyone devoted to theology, or the study of the gods, continues to refine their knowledge about the gods through experience over the course of their lifetimes. But there's no expectation of knowing "The Truth" of things and that's not even the goal of such inquiries. It's about deepening one's relationship with greater-than-human powers. Granted, I'm talking from the perspective of religious mysticism, which has a focus on personal exploration and direct communion with the gods.

 

[Stevicus]

Of course but I was speaking of universally known issues like JFK's assassination and the Vatican secrets. I think our society, politics and economy depend on those truths.

I agree, although once one is no longer a part of society, would it even matter anymore? Also, if one is in the Afterlife, then one might go directly to JFK and ask "Who assassinated you?" He might say "Howard Hunt did it, but I've forgiven him and we're now good friends."

 

[Estro Felino]

Speaking as one of those theists - the polytheistic and animistic variety - I really don't know what you're talking about here.

Certainly anyone devoted to theology, or the study of the gods, continues to refine their knowledge about the gods through experience over the course of their lifetimes. But there's no expectation of knowing "The Truth" of things and that's not even the goal of such inquiries. It's about deepening one's relationship with greater-than-human powers. Granted, I'm talking from the perspective of religious mysticism, which has a focus on personal exploration and direct communion with the gods.

I said "or nearly" indeed.

 

[LuisDantas]

I wonder whether atheists are saddened by the fact that certain truths will never be revealed. In life, I mean.
What do you atheists think of the Truth? The historical Truth?
Do you strive for it?

For some reason I find myself reminded of, believe it or not, the first time I ever saw an issue of "Topolino".

It was very disturbing to me; I was a child of around twelve years of age and I took considerable pride on how well read I was on all things Disney.

For a while there I kept pestering the people around me with insistent questions on how I could tap into what was clearly more Disney content, made and distributed well outside the parameters I felt confortable with and integrated to.

In all honesty, it was an existential shock to learn that such a thing even existed... and that if I ever came to acquire familiarity with it, I would have to go through considerable effort first.

I kept feeling that it was just unfair; I was so dedicated a reader. How could anyone be so inconsiderate as to publish an actual Disney comicbook that I could not read?

To this day my Italian can charitably be described as "tentative on a good day". And I had a lot of time to accept that language barriers are very much a real and significant thing. But it did not come easy, believe me.

In a sense that experience may have been a wake-up call of a sort for me. One of the earliest indications that I am not owed all knowledge that I might want. That not just existence itself, but even my fellow Disney fans would not go out of their way to make me privy to knowledge that was by no means confidential.

What we experience in life is limited and restricted in many different ways, and that sure can be unconfortable.

Ultimately, we just have to learn to deal with it. We are not owed any connection with cosmic truths.

 

[Estro Felino]

For some reason I find myself reminded of, believe it or not, the first time I ever saw an issue of "Topolino".

It was very disturbing to me; I was a child of around twelve years of age and I took considerable pride on how well read I was on all things Disney.

For a while there I kept pestering the people around me with insistent questions on how I could tap into what was clearly more Disney content, made and distributed well outside the parameters I felt confortable with and integrated to.

In all honesty, it was an existential shock to learn that such a thing even existed... and that if I ever came to acquire familiarity with it, I would have to go through considerable effort first.

I kept feeling that it was just unfair; I was so dedicated a reader. How could anyone be so inconsiderate as to publish an actual Disney comicbook that I could not read?

To this day my Italian can charitably be described as "tentative on a good day". And I had a lot of time to accept that language barriers are very much a real and significant thing. But it did not come easy, believe me.

In a sense that experience may have been a wake-up call of a sort for me. One of the earliest indications that I am not owed all knowledge that I might want. That not just existence itself, but even my fellow Disney fans would not go out of their way to make me privy to knowledge that was by no means confidential.

What we experience in life is limited and restricted in many different ways, and that sure can be unconfortable.

Ultimately, we just have to learn to deal with it. We are not owed any connection with cosmic truths.

I liked your anecdote. Nice.
But I think the search for the Truth is not due to the thirst for knowledge, to satisfy one's own curiosity.
It's thirst for justice. Because without Truth, there is no Justice.
It would be meaningless to live in an unjust world and to surrender to it, without trying to change it.

 

[Estro Felino]

Harvard's coat of arms... Truth

 

[ChristineM]

Facts can be deceiving and reality can be apparent.

Fact are facts

 

[RestlessSoul]

The second wa

The second was worthless from its inception.

You think belief is worthless?

 

[ChristineM]

You think belief is worthless?

Belief claimed as truth.

 

[Estro Felino]

Belief claimed as truth.

We all rely on what we believe is the truth.
The absolute truth.
We all do. None of us possesses the absolute Truth,
That's why I capitalize the Truth, to distinguish it from what I believe is the truth.
My certainties, my beliefs don't suffice me. I want to know the real Truth. It's a spiritual need.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Fact are facts

Yeah, that is a tautology and not an actual fact. So that facts are facts, is in fact worthless and that is a fact.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Belief claimed as truth.

How you know with evidence as a fact, that that is worthless?
I really want to know.

 

[ChristineM]

We all rely on what we believe is the truth.
The absolute truth.
We all do. None of us possesses the absolute Truth,
That's why I capitalize the Truth, to distinguish it from what I believe is the truth.
My certainties, my beliefs don't suffice me. I want to know the real Truth. It's a spiritual need.

My personal belief is that capitalising, putting it in quotes or aiming arc lights at it makes no difference. What is "believed to be true must be true" without evidence of fact or reality is a misuse of the word.

 

[Estro Felino]

My personal belief is that capitalising, putting it in quotes or aiming arc lights at it makes no difference. What is "believed to be true must be true" without evidence of fact or reality is a misuse of the word.

I can give you an example: Brexiteers believe it is the truth that the EU is run by supranational, bad entities. That's their truth. Remainers believe in the opposite truth. Where is the truth?