Theists and the Truth

[Valjean]

The other side is lying by omission.

Explain, please.

 

[Valjean]

Just read their posts. Read your own. I can't overcome your willful blindness for you. And its not my job.

This is what happens when atheists fall into the constant habit of presuming themselves to be the 'me-judge' of what is and is not "evidence". They become so habitualized to dismissing any evidence that doesn't support their beliefs that they can't see anything else at all, anymore.

What "beliefs?"
Much tendered as evidence can be objectively assessed. Algebra is not subjective. We point out real errors in logic and facts. These are not our personal opinions.

I think you're projecting your own epistemic methodology onto atheism.

 

[Audie]

What "beliefs?"
Much tendered as evidence can be objectively assessed. Algebra is not subjective. We point out real errors in logic and facts. These are not our personal opinions.

I think you're projecting your own epistemic methodology onto atheism.

The projection is strong with your friend

 

[Valjean]

That's meaningless jibberish. I am a theist and I also "lack belief" in God. So do a great many agnostic theists. A "lack of belief" defines nothing.

Balderdash.
What do you think a definition is? "Lack of belief" is the only feature common to all forms and iterations of atheism. It is definitive.
A definition involves a feature unique to all examples of the thing being defined. How does lack of belief not meet this criterion?

The real definitive conundrum here is your claim to be an atheistic theist. What's up with that?

Atheism is the antithetical to theism and is therefor a counter-assertion. Believe and unbelief have nothing to do with it.

No! Why is this so hard to grasp? It is not a counter assertion. It's a lack of assertion.

That's the whole game of the huge majority of atheist's these days ... to play the "me-judge".

Your belief is built on sand. It's unfounded and you feel it threatened by anything questioning it. Your defense is a baseless tissue of lies critical of the devious, "godless atheists."

 

[Estro Felino]

.
What do you think a definition is? "Lack of belief"

Honestly, thinking of my atheist friends, I believe most atheists believe in something.
Which can be something worthy. For example, a friend of mine is an atheist environmentalist. He believes in climate change, in animal rights; he is vegan and used to be fruitarian. So he believe in Earth, and that's something spiritual.

What scares me is nihilism. Those atheists who are atheists who believe in nothing. Or see our Earth as a nothing. A meaningless nothing.

 

[Valjean]

Honestly, thinking of my atheist friends, I believe most atheists believe in something.
Which can be something worthy. For example, a friend of mine is an atheist environmentalist. He believes in climate change, in animal rights; he is vegan and used to be fruitarian. So he believe in Earth, and that's something spiritual.

What scares me is nihilism. Those atheists who are atheists who believe in nothing. Or see our Earth as a nothing. A meaningless nothing.

I believe in lots of things, but not in unevidenced things like unicorns, gods, or leprechauns.
Your friend sounds much like me, except I was never a fruitarian.

 

[Stevicus]

Those are just the artifice theists use to PRACTICE their faith in the great mystery that "God" actuslly is to us all. Atheists refuse to acknowledge this because it's so easy for them to attack and disparage and dismiss the artifice, while ignoring the practical reality of acting on faith. And there are plenty of ignorant theists that aid them in doing this by not understanding what religious artifice is, themselves.

I think atheists just try to differentiate between what can be discerned as verifiable fact versus speculation and guessing. Theists could do the same thing if they wanted to. In my view, "belief" is nothing more than "hope."

"I believe the Cubs will win the World Series this year" = "I hope the Cubs will win the World Series this year."
"I believe in God" = "I hope there's a God."

Neither statement could be construed as any kind of factual claim. But if people imply that "I believe" = "I know," then that may be going too far. That's where it crosses the line from speculation to irrational belief.

Humans don't like to face their own unknowing. They'd rather isolate themselves with those who "believe in" the same vision of knowing that they have, just to maintain the illusion that they know. But this is as true of atheists as it is of theists. It's a human thing. But because God is the greatest unknown, the subject of it tends to bring this out in us all.

We are that way. It's true.

That may be part of the problem, since humans can't face "not knowing" something. Every mystery has to be solved, though there's something to be said for being at peace with mysteries. For example, there are a lot of things about humanity's past that we may not ever know.

 

[ppp]

Sure, until you ask any of them to present their evidence for that belief. Then, suddenly, they don't believe that no gods exist, anymore, they DISBELIEVE that any gods do exist. And they all magically become agnostics who don't know what to believe!

Cool. Provide evidence for that. Here. Now.

Just read their posts. Read your own. I can't overcome your willful blindness for you. And its not my job.

I never would have thought to get a response that was all squirmy and evasive. I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you!

 

[Aupmanyav]

Estro Felino said:
I wonder whether atheists are saddened by the fact that certain truths will never be revealed. In life, I mean.
What do you atheists think of the Truth? The historical Truth?
Do you strive for it?

Aupmanyav answers: No. There is a time for everything. Travel to space was not available in my father's time. It is available in my time if I had the inclination and money for it.
Perhaps not many new things will be found in my life-time (I am 80 +). But Finding new things will not stop after I am no more. So why should I be saddened?
I am not speaking for all atheists. I am an atheist Hindu who follows non-duality (Advaita). I believe all things in the universe are constituted by 'physical energy' and nothing other than that exists.
Do you mean actual researched Historical truth or the mythical accounts are given in the religious books? Should I believe in Mahabharata war though there is hardly any evidence?
I do not need to strive for anything. I have found my answers. I can live with the big question for which at present we have no answer - "Why does anything exist at all?" (Don't say 'God-does-it', because then my next question will be where does God springs up from?)
My guess is that 'physical energy' has a phase other than existence, and that is non-existence.

 

[Estro Felino]

Estro Felino said:
I wonder whether atheists are saddened by the fact that certain truths will never be revealed. In life, I mean.
What do you atheists think of the Truth? The historical Truth?
Do you strive for it?

Aupmanyav answers: No. There is a time for everything. Travel to space was not available in my father's time. It is available in my time if I had the inclination and money for it.
Perhaps not many new things will be found in my life-time (I am 80 +). But Finding new things will not stop after I am no more. So why should I be saddened?
I am not speaking for all atheists. I am an atheist Hindu who follows non-duality (Advaita). I believe all things in the universe are constituted by 'physical energy' and nothing other than that exists.
Do you mean actual researched Historical truth or the mythical accounts are given in the religious books? Should I believe in Mahabharata war though there is hardly any evidence?
I do not need to strive for anything. I have found my answers. I can live with the big question for which at present we have no answer - "Why does anything exist at all?" (Don't say 'God-does-it', because then my next question will be where does God springs up from?)
My guess is that 'physical energy' has a phase other than existence, and that is non-existence.

Interesting.
I would like to ask you something: why do you think so many people go to astrologers, magicians, prophets...etc...?
I tell you why: because they are thirsty for truth. They search for something. We all do.

Of course theists search for Truth in religion, so they will go to priests, pastors, ministers instead.
But search for the Truth is what drives all these people. Because we live in a very, very, very uncertain world, filled with unknown.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Sure, until you ask any of them to present their evidence for that belief. Then, suddenly, they don't believe that no gods exist, anymore, they DISBELIEVE that any gods do exist. And they all magically become agnostics who don't know what to believe!

Atheist do not become agnostics. The evidence for non-existence of God is the absence of evidence for their existence.
There is no elephant in my cupboard. I opened it and checked.

 

[ppp]

Interesting.
I would like to ask you something: why do you think so many people go to astrologers, magicians, prophets...etc...?
I tell you why: because they are thirsty for truth. They search for something. We all do.

Of course theists search for Truth in religion, so they will go to priests, pastors, ministers instead.
But search for the Truth is what drives all these people. Because we live in a very, very, very uncertain world, filled with unknown.

What you describe is a search for comfort. Not truth.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Interesting.
I would like to ask you something: why do you think so many people go to astrologers, magicians, prophets...etc...?
But search for the Truth is what drives all these people. Because we live in a very, very, very uncertain world, filled with unknown.

They are fools, IMHO.
They have chosen a wrong method to find truth. One can find truth only through science.
Why should anyone fear the unknown? When the time comes the unknown will become known. We should not conjure silly scenarios and worry about them, for example "How will I face God on the day of judgment?" Is there any God? Will there be a day of judgment? What is the evidence for it?
If one lives with this much fear, then all the fun of living is lost.

 

[ppp]

Atheist do not become agnostics. The evidence for non-existence of God is the absence of evidence for their existence.
There is no elephant in my cupboard. I opened it and checked.

Exactly. No one ever chastises me when I say that dryads or mermaids don't exist. Even though I have not searched every forest, nor every sea.

 

[Aupmanyav]

What scares me is nihilism. Those atheists who are atheists who believe in nothing. Or see our Earth as a nothing. A meaningless nothing.

There is no one in the forum who does not believe in anything except @Mikkel_the_dane.

 

[PureX]

What "beliefs?"
Much tendered as evidence can be objectively assessed. Algebra is not subjective. We point out real errors in logic and facts. These are not our personal opinions.

I think you're projecting your own epistemic methodology onto atheism.

The existence of God is a philosophical proposition, not a mathematical one. The evidence you seek does not exist in the form you seek it. But you know this already. Which is why you keep demanding it. Again, it's the "me-judge" game.

 

[PureX]

Balderdash.
What do you think a definition is? "Lack of belief" is the only feature common to all forms and iterations of atheism. It is definitive.

It defines nothing. Rocks also "lack belief". So do many theists. It's just double-speak intended to avoid admitting that you believe no gods exist because you know you can't defend that belief.

No! Why is this so hard to grasp? It is not a counter assertion. It's a lack of assertion.

It's BS is what it is. You want to call everyone else's belief in gods wrong without having to defend your own belief that no gods exist. Constantly ignoring the fact that what anyone believes about God is irrelevant to anyone else.

Your belief is built on sand.

I have no beliefs regarding the existence of God.

It's unfounded and you feel it threatened by anything questioning it.

There is nothing to threaten.

Your defense is a baseless tissue of lies critical of the devious, "godless atheists."

And you're attacking my imaginary theist beliefs because you know you can't defend your own atheist belief.

 

[PureX]

Interesting.
I would like to ask you something: why do you think so many people go to astrologers, magicians, prophets...etc...?
I tell you why: because they are thirsty for truth. They search for something. We all do.

Of course theists search for Truth in religion, so they will go to priests, pastors, ministers instead.
But search for the Truth is what drives all these people. Because we live in a very, very, very uncertain world, filled with unknown.

Very few of us are actually searching for truth. We are searching for more control. To we humans, information enables control. And controlling our circumstances is how we humans survive and thrive. The more we understand why and how existence, exists, the better able we will be to control it to our own advantage. If we were really seeking truth as opposed to more control, we would not be exploiting the crap out of each other and the planet. It would have become obvious to us long ago how incredibly stupid doing that is.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

There is no one in the forum who does not believe in anything except @Mikkel_the_dane.

Well, yes. For a certain version of believe in connection with at least one version of truth, then yes, I have no beliefs. I have only blind faith, but I still treat the univerrse as real, orderly and knowable. I just don't have any justified true beliefs about it in a sense.

 

[PureX]

Atheist do not become agnostics. The evidence for non-existence of God is the absence of evidence for their existence.
There is no elephant in my cupboard. I opened it and checked.

Absence of evidence is only an absence of evidence. It can't become evidence of anything else unless the evidence that was logically expected has been explicitly defined, and would have been escertained when sought. Your assertion about this "lack of evidence" does not fulfill any of these requirements, and therefor neither indicates nor implies anything but the unknown.

But this has been explained to you and others here many times, before, and you continue to just ignore it. Your minds are closed and locked shut. Just like those who claim that "God said it, and I believe it, go argue with God!"