MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jesus said it. John 11:25
That is why I'm waiting.
Good things come for those who wait.
Psalm 27:14
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Theists: Atheism is a Religion?
- Thread starter JChnsc19
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Yes, Jesus said it. John 11:25
That is why I'm waiting.
Good things come for those who wait.
Psalm 27:14
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
I respectfully disagree. My analogies were quite germane and relevant. Your statement was, "And regarding a "loving God", to me it's not about the reality of it, it's about the possibility of it. And about my wanting that possibility to be actual. For me, faith is not the presumption of "X" being true. It's the hope that "X" is true, put into action". We were talking about a spiritual belief in possibilities, not Altruism. Altruism is an observed animal behavior, not a presumption of truth. Altruism is genetically hard wired into most lifeforms, to give the species a better chance for survival. So, if you want to serve and enrich the lives of others, then just do so. Other animals share this level of altruism, and they certainly don't invoke any divinity or any religious tenets as their crutch or reason. It just seems disingenuous to me to be altruistic, if your motives are to please some divinity, and not your heart. True love for the wellbeing of your fellow man comes from the heart, not from a book. It has to be felt, not read.
Regarding a God. Belief is the acceptance that something is real or true without any objective evidence or facts. In other words, the more evidence and facts you have, the more knowledge you acquire. And, the less reason you need to believe that something is real or true(you will now know it). It is the willful act of dismissing or ignoring evidence and logic, that is willful ignorance. The difference between our worldviews is evidence. I need it, and you don't.
Let's talk about the possibility of God's existence. If God exists;
What properties would a God(s) have?
How does a God maintain its properties?
What properties of a God interact with the properties of our Universe?
What was the cause for a God?
Is a God dimensionless, or a composite of infinite dimensions?
How can a God created the Universe and all life, and not leave any traceable footprints?
Where does a God exist?
How do humans interact with a God?
Can you cite even one example of a miracle, a supernatural event, a metaphysical entity, a paranormal event, or any violation of physical laws?
Is a God truly, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient, transcendent, and omni righteous? This will create contradictions.
If a God did exist and somehow interacted with our physical universe, it would violate all physical laws, and signal the collapse of our entire universe. Since our physical universe is still here, God can't be.
At the end of the day, you can believe in any reality you want. But, the physical reality that you interact with everyday is far more reliable and real, than the conceptual reality that exists only in your head. The battle between conceptual and perceptual realities is simply a part of the human condition. If you think about anything long and hard enough inside your mind, you can eventually convince yourself that it can exist outside of the mind. There are those that really believe they have super powers. And, their argument is the same as yours. What is wrong with simply believing in anything that is nearly impossible, willful ignorance of what is possible.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
No, the guy who WROTE John 11:25 claimed Jesus said it.
It is entirely possible for something to be written down even if it didn't happen.
Truly Enlightened
Well-Known Member
Well if God would speak to me, the way He spoke with Job, I would not be speaking with you.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
God is spirit. John 4:24
What is spirit? Does a spirit have flesh and bones? Luke 24:39
God does not change. He is a spirit and he cannot have flesh and bones the next. Malachi 3:6
He does not cast a shadow. James 1:17
He has no beginning [eternal] and no end; he cannot be killed [immortal]; he cannot be seen [invisible] 1 Timothy 1:17
God has this invisible qualities since the creation of the world. Romans 1:20
The things we see were made by something that cannot be seen. Hebrews 11:3
God wouldn't speak to us because there is a wall separating us from him. Isaiah 59:2
That is why we must do something...
I hear what God says but it is sad most don't John 8:47; [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14:24&version=ISV']John 14:24[/URL]
He spoke to Job and God told him:
Job 38:19-21
“What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
https://youtu.be/HneiEA1B8ks
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
It is possible for something to be written down even if it did not happen - example of which are the adventures of Harry Potter but we know who fabricated it, the stories of Game of Thrones, the drama of the Walking Dead, the Avengers and so on.
However the guy John wrote about the Lord Jesus Christ and wrote the last book of the Bible called Revelations and you know what - majority of the prophecies written there were fulfilled. So how could I top that?
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
How do you know that John wrote that book? The identity of the author of the Gospel of John has been debated since the 2nd century. There's nothing in the book itself that identifies the author.
And who cares about fulfilled prophecies? There are prophecies in Harry Potter - it mentions a heatwave that really happened. There are prophecies in Star Trek - the show correctly predicted that the first manned mission to land on the moon would be launched on a Wednesday.
And Biblical prophecies fall into one of five groups:
- Things that are likely to happen anyway (like if I said there was going to be an earthquake in Japan.)
- Prophecies that were made AFTER the events that fulfilled them, but then claimed to have come from before the event (like if I wrote down a prophecy about the 9/11 attacks and then claimed I wrote it in 1985).
- Prophecies that were created by alterations of earlier texts (like if I had an old diary entry that said I wanted to marry my girlfriend back then and I changed the girlfriend's name to my current partner).
- Prophecies that are phrased in extremely vague terms so that they could mean anything (like if I said, "There will come a day when the eagle will fly above the two warring brothers. And one of them will be attacked by a lion and his brother will save him at the cost of his own life". That could be interpreted in so many ways).
- Someone just made up the event that fulfilled the prophecy (like if my friend showed me a prophecy he wrote some time ago and I said, "Yeah, that like totally happened to me the other day" to try to convince some people that my friend could really write prophecies.)
So you're going to have to do a lot better than that.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Apostle John is one of the apostles of Jesus Christ
The last surviving apostle
Exiled by the Romans in the island of Patmos
The Romans tried to fry him in a cauldron filled with hot oil; they failed
He died 100 years old.
Your enumerated prophecies are not prophecies recorded in the Bible.
Since you have not referenced your enumeration with relevant bible verses and shown proof that such event is indeed the prophecies mentioned.
Example:
Matthew 24:1-2 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
Prophecy fulfilled:
In 66 CE the Jewish population rebelled against the Roman Empire. Four years later, on 4 August 70 CE (Tisha B'Av - 9th Day of Av) or 30 August 70 CE, Roman legions under Titus retook and destroyed much of Jerusalem and the Second Temple Second Temple - Wikipedia
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Nice claims. But no evidence.
They were categories into which different types of prophecies fit.
Tell ya what. You give me any prophecy from the Bible and I'll tell you which of those categories it fits into, okay?
That is part of a larger prophecy speaking about the end of the world. Jesus gave many signs that would accompany this event.
The end of the world will be signaled by wars, famines, disease, and earthquakes (verses 6-7). And that's just "the beginning of sorrows" (verse 8). Next believers will be hated and killed by unbelievers (9), believers will hate and betray each other (10), false prophets will fool people (11), iniquity will abound and love wax cold (12). But hey, if you make through all that, you'll be saved (13).
Only one more thing will happen before the end comes: the gospel will be preached throughout the world (14). Well, that and the abomination of desolations will stand in the holy place (15), many false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders (24), the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall (29), the sign of the son of Man will appear in the sky, everyone on earth will mourn, and then, finally, the great and powerful son of Man will come in all his glory (30).
Oh, and all these things will happen within the lifespan of Jesus' contemporaries (34).
And this is in direct CONTRADICTION of Mark 13:32, which says that no one will know when the end of the world will be.
Since that generation has long since gone, and the world has not ended, safe to say this prophecy is just plain WRONG.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Yes and I think there was a thread about "failed prediction of the Bible or something like that" which "Oh, and all these things will happen within the lifespan of Jesus' contemporaries (34)." was raised and I showed that even a man dies, he is considered asleep.
Let me cite:
Daniel 12:2 New International Version (NIV)
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
What was that? Every time I find difficulty comprehending something, I would open another translation of the Bible to help me out. Let us try the Expanded Bible same verse.
Daniel 12:2 Expanded Bible (EXB)
Many people who ·have already died [L are sleeping in the land of the dust] will ·live again [L wake up]. Some will wake up to life forever, but some will wake up to ·shame [reproach] and ·disgrace [abhorrence] forever [Is. 26:19].
So the real truth is everybody who are now dusts [those who died even before the known ancient civilizations to the present day] are considered SLEEPING hence "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened." They did not pass away, they were SLEEPING in the land of the dust.
Now with regard to the other prophecies written in Matthew 24 spoken by my Lord Jesus Christ, I'd rather refer you to the Last Days Bible https://lastdaysbible.org/Matthew.html in its footnotes says the
"The end of the world will be signaled by wars, famines, disease, and earthquakes (verses 6-7). And that's just "the beginning of sorrows" (verse 8). Next believers will be hated and killed by unbelievers (9), believers will hate and betray each other (10), false prophets will fool people (11),"
were fulfilled. False prophets have started its movements after the last apostle died in 100 AD. The church built by Christ was apostatized and a new one emerged [CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Catholic]. Beginning of sorrows on which wars, famines, disease and earthquakes were experienced in 1914-1918
"World War One was one of the deadliest conflicts in the history of the human race, in which over 16 million people died. The total number of both civilian and military casualties is estimated at around 37 million people. The war killed almost 7 million civilians and 10 million military personnel."
"The global death toll was inconceivable: according to the most recent estimates, between 50 million and 100 million people worldwide perished in the three pandemic waves between the spring of 1918 and the winter of 1919. Adjusting for population growth, that is equivalent to between 200 million and 425 million today."
"According to the estimates acknowledged by the mainstream view, about 2 million people died between 1917 and 1919 because of hunger and from diseases, which included cholera, plague and typhus, as well as influenza infected by 1918 flu pandemic."
List of earthquakes in 1914 - Wikipedia
So how can I top that?
So Mr. T, I'm not a mindless fanatic Christian zombie
I believe only the truth
Faith is the result of true knowledge and strong belief on these truths.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Are you serious? Now you are reinterpreting what the prophecy meant in a desperate attempt to try to say it hasn't failed?
I'm sorry, but if you are going to claim that people who have long since decayed into dust are merely sleeping, it is impossible to take you seriously.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Nope, I'm not interpreting. I'm lifting verses.
Did you check the verses?
I will not interpret the following.
Why interpret the Bible when it can stand on its own?
You can try it yourself.
Check the verses, if I am putting one on you.
I will just enlarge the point on where you should look at.
Color them up.
I will say nothing...oh check your bible if you will.
John 11:1-45 New International Version (NIV)
Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Lord, the one you love is sick.”
When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s Son may be glorified through it.” Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”
“But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”
Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”
Then Thomas (also known as Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”
On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”
“Yes, Lord,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.
When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”
When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. “Where have you laid him?” he asked.
“Come and see, Lord,” they replied.
Jesus wept.
Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”
But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”
Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. “Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”
Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, believed in him.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
There's a big difference between dead and sleeping.
You're not convincing me. If the language used in the prophecy is so flexible that "sleeping" can mean "dead," then you can twist it to mean anything you want.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Mr. T,
You have examined the verses?
Did you check it from the online Bible as well as from the paper back version?
When you read, you don't have to weep. It has been there for the longest time even before we were born it was already there. All who are dead are asleep. Your grandma and grandpa are asleep, so are mine too.
No interpretations, just showing it to you.
Luke 8:49-55 New International Version (NIV)
While Jesus was still speaking, someone came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. “Your daughter is dead,” he said. “Don’t bother the teacher anymore.”
Hearing this, Jesus said to Jairus, “Don’t be afraid; just believe, and she will be healed.”
When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,” Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep.”
They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Give it up.
I'm not interested in you telling me that "dead" and "Sleeping" are the same thing. You are just straining to fit the Bible into your preconceived ideas.
And throwing more Bible passages at me to support the Bible is circular logic.
And even if I grant your position (which I don't), then Jesus claim becomes meaningless, since it could refer to any point in time. It's like if I said that a particular event will happen at some point. It's a totally useless claim.
So give it up.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Mr. T it is not my fault it is there
Not your fault also.
People just have to face the truth.
When people die, they are asleep - according to the Lord Jesus.
It is impossible to give up, when something is staring you in the eye.
and written all over the Bible.
1 Corinthians 15:50-52 New International Version (NIV)
I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Let us check 1 Cor 15:51 in other English translations:
1 Corinthians 15:51 Common English Bible (CEB)
Listen, I’m telling you a secret: All of us won’t die, but we will all be changed—
1 Corinthians 15:51 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
But listen, I tell you this secret: We will not all die, but we will all be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:51 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
I’m telling you a mystery. Not all of us will die, but we will all be changed.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
You do know that's a metaphor, not a literal description of death, right?
You seem to be awfully determined to have me accept a metaphor as fact, probably because without arguing that point, your prophecy claim falls apart.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
What is written Mr. T is larger than you and me.
Those words were written even before our Grand Daddies were born.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 New International Version (NIV)
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
Church day today, don't you sleep - ok?
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
What is written Mr. T is larger than you and me.
Those words were written even before our Grand Daddies were born.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 New International Version (NIV)
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
Church day today, don't you sleep - ok?
The Canterbury tales were written before our grand daddies were born too, doesn't mean they are real.
Is this the best argument you have? A desperate attempt to convince me that dead people are really just sleeping?