Theists, please tell me why you believe murder is wrong.

[JustGeorge]

Does this mean your religious belief is a form of entertainment for you?

Yeah!

I find religious practices fun. (The beliefs aren't as entertaining, anymore than the fact that I like Salvini Cichlids or the color black is.)

Being an atheist is like not having a truck. If you don't need a truck and have a vehicle that does work for you, do you miss not having a truck? No.

Well, most everyone needs a truck eventually... something will have to be moved...

(But I get what you meant by it. )

The ongoing question atheists have is why theists are attracted to the frameworks they believe in.

I think we all have questions about each other...

An atheist might wonder why a theist is, well, theistic. A theist might wonder how an atheist doesn't sense God/s in all this. Someone driven by having stuff might wonder how a person can pass the joy up of accumulating it, while that person might wonder why a person bothers...

 

[dybmh]

Arrogation is to claim without warrant or presumptuously; to assume or appropriate to oneself without right.
The freethinkers are not arrogant, they are principled. They base their actions on the consistent application of abstract, universal principles.

OK.... doesn't really matter. If the objection is: "Without proof, then the model is worthless because anyone can make up anything", then the objection is true. My example holds, if a person self-deifies, then yes, anyone can make up any rules they want for themself.

So I question your major premise. It's objectively unevidenced; empirically unfounded.

Empircal. Who cares? It's a moral construct. And it's got merit if you give it a chance.

I also question the validity of your conclusion. Omnibenevolence doesn't follow from the existence of an infinite god.

Oh yeah it does.

Can you diagram your reasoning?

I'm not drawing pictures, no. The first step is understanding the various implications of a being which is absolutely infinite. Beginning with absolutely eternal. No beginning, no end. As the moments approach infinity, the defining characteristics between the moments become insignificant. All moments blend into 1 singular all encompassing moment. Time is not flowing in the way it would for a finite being. Everything is concurrent. Everything is NOW. Another way to consider it is without any beginnings and without any endings all that's left is NOW.

Good so far? It's late, I'll return tomorrow and we can continue.

 

[blü 2]

Now, to be clear I know murder is wrong, but I'm curious the reason.

I also know they Bible says murder is wrong, but can someone tell me if that's the root of the reason that you (the theist) believe that it's wrong to murder?

-Cheers

Why is murder wrong?

X dies as the result of an act of, or state of affairs created by, Y.

When is Y a hero? Justified? Simply unfortunate? Blameless? Negligent? Not responsible for [his] actions? Guilty?

In other words, what exactly is 'murder'? The Decalogue is hopelessly vague on the point. In the modern Western world there is general agreement on the outlines of eg justifiable homicide, negligence, manslaughter, murder ─ but, between jurisdictions, much variation in the details.

But as for why killing someone is wrong (when it is), and thus why murder is wrong (however defined), the answer is that humans have evolved a number of moral tendencies, which have in common their helpfulness to living in groups, and thus give the tribe the great benefits of cooperative action.

One of these is an instinctive dislike of the one who harms. Another is the instinctive dislike of the one who violates fairness or refuses reciprocity. Experiments have shown these reactions in pre-verbal infants, for example.

So in broad generality (and subject to the particular circumstances, of course) murder is wrong because we've evolved to think it's wrong, and we've evolved to think it's wrong because thinking it's wrong is beneficial to living in groups; and it's beneficial to live in groups because cooperation improves the chances of the tribe and its members surviving long enough to breed.

(As you'll have noticed already, the same instincts account for why we find versions of the 'Golden Rule' in all societies.)

 

[SalixIncendium]

So you don't know how to pronunce יהוה? That's odd, being one and the same and all. Literally. I would expect to finally get this answered for everyone.

@Hockeycowboy , FYI, No worries, Cousin.

Why would you assume I don't know how to pronounce Jehovah?

 

[HonestJoe]

Now, to be clear I know murder is wrong, but I'm curious the reason.

I also know they Bible says murder is wrong, but can someone tell me if that's the root of the reason that you (the theist) believe that it's wrong to murder?

Most theists (Christian or otherwise) will believe murder is wrong for exactly the same kind of reasons as most non-theists do. Believing in a god or not, and even more specific religious beliefs, aren't the primary driving factors in such core moral attitudes, even in people who think they are. That is why a good person who changes religion generally remains a good person and a bad person who changes religion generally remains a bad person.

 

[dybmh]

Why would you assume I don't know how to pronounce Jehovah?

Because, I asked you if your name pronounced properly is Jeh-Hoh-Vah, and you evaded the answer.

Edit: I did not assume at first. If you recall.

 

[dybmh]

In other words, what exactly is 'murder'? The Decalogue is hopelessly vague on the point. In the modern Western world there is general agreement on the outlines of eg justifiable homicide, negligence, manslaughter, murder ─ but, between jurisdictions, much variation in the details.

Interesting. So, do you apply these same principles when judging the imagined "Abrahamic God"?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Because, I asked you if your name pronounced properly is Jeh-Hoh-Vah, and you evaded the answer.

Edit: I did not assume at first. If you recall.

I know how to pronounce it. I just don't answer to it.

 

[dybmh]

Being an atheist is like not having a truck. If you don't need a truck and have a vehicle that does work for you, do you miss not having a truck? No.

The bottom line is, atheism as it is being practiced here is a political campaign. Politics never dies. So, you'll always need your "truck", you'll always have your "demons", and you'll always have your "idols", and you'll always have your **dogma** (political-talking-points).

Does this mean your religious belief is a form of entertainment for you?

Please be honest, at least with yourself. You love it, don't you? Arguing politics and that feeling of being "in the right" or "on the right side".

 

[dybmh]

I know how to pronounce it. I just don't answer to it.

Oh. Would you please tell me the correct pronounciation of יהוה?

 

[Wandering Monk]

Murder is wrong because God, the Creator of life, says it’s wrong. According to the scriptures, human life created in God’s image have value and belong to Him. So for someone to murder and take another life is a crime against that person and God.

And if there was no God, would it still be a crime?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Oh. Would you please tell me the correct pronounciation of יהוה?

jah'we

 

[dybmh]

Because they're epistemically unfounded yet have widespread political ramifications, affecting us all.
We're being helpful.

"It" affects us all?

Are the religious not interested in truth?

You're trying to be helpful to "all" by preaching the "truth" of the evils of "it" to people who are not asking for your help?

Sounds like you're practicing Chirstianity. You're on a mission to spread the truth for the perceived good of all. And you don't care if people are interested in the campaign or not.

 

[dybmh]

jah'we

huh, doesn't look right to me. There is no "w" sound in Hebrew. Also no "j". But thanks for the effort.

 

[SalixIncendium]

huh, doesn't look right to me. There is no "w" sound in Hebrew. Also no "j". But thanks for the effort.

Well, if you know better, perhaps you'll share.

Also, look up phonetics. A phonetic 'j' does not make an English 'j' sound. Also irrelevant is the 'w,' because, again, phonetics.

Here, I'll help...

 

[F1fan]

Yeah!

I find religious practices fun. (The beliefs aren't as entertaining, anymore than the fact that I like Salvini Cichlids or the color black is.)

Interesting. I must have been exposed to all the most boring religions in my childhood. Ever been to a Catholic wedding? I have nine Catholic cousins. The later ones got more interesting as the preist would regurgitate certain themes, like his saying during a wedding ceremony to not have pre-marital sex. Even my cousins took that as more of an option than God's will.

Well, most everyone needs a truck eventually... something will have to be moved...

Like some manure, or stocking up on tampons.

(But I get what you meant by it. )

I think we all have questions about each other...

An atheist might wonder why a theist is, well, theistic. A theist might wonder how an atheist doesn't sense God/s in all this. Someone driven by having stuff might wonder how a person can pass the joy up of accumulating it, while that person might wonder why a person bothers...

From what I have read about the development of religion, and the use of religion as a cohesive and organizing framework for civilizations that settled in permanent locations, it is not what believers see it as meaning to them individually. So there is a tradition and practical purpose for religion at the social level that individuals don't really acknowledge or understand. I think this is very interesting.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I suggest the legal code is a good resource. First world nations have put a lot of work into what the consequences are for those whose behavior leads to another dying. But it is far from perfect.

I think morals can be a weak measure. Morals often drag a lot of personal emotions and can miss certain elements. As I noted I've lost many cycling friends over the years due to drunk drivers, and one inattentive drivers. A few years ago Glenda Taylor of Topeka, KS was warming up for the Kansas State Time Trial near Wichita, KS and she was struck from behind by a driver who was trying to squeeze between her on a bike and an oncoming car. The driver hit her at about 50 mph, and she died at the scene. His fault. He was convicted and got only 60 days in jail.

Man convicted of killing Washburn professor Glenda Taylor in crash receives 60 days in jail

GIRARD — A Chanute man who pleaded guilty to manslaughter in the death of Washburn University art teacher and administrator Glenda Taylor, along with Taylor’s family and friends, remained somber as C…

www.cjonline.com

To my mind this isn't justice.

As far as I can tell all of those are not objective as such but rather just your perosonal thoughts and emotions.

 

[dybmh]

Well, if you know better, perhaps you'll share.

Also, look up phonetics. A phonetic 'j' does not make an English 'j' sound. Also irrelevant is the 'w,' because, again, phonetics.

Here, I'll help...

how is it irrelevant? it's easy to tell the difference between Say-lix and Thay-nix. 's' is close to 'th' phonetically. 'l' is close to 'n' phonetically. but Thanix is wrong and Salix is right.

 

[SalixIncendium]

how is it irrelevant? it's easy to tell the difference between Say-lix and Thay-nix. 's' is close to 'th' phonetically. 'l' is close to 'n' phonetically. but Thanix is wrong and Salix is right.

Did you actually watch the videos? I don't think you did. Try again. Perhaps you'll learn something, because what you posted isn't phonetics.

Salix phonetically is sa'luhks, not Say-lix. You're not even pronouncing the 'a' correctly.

 

[dybmh]

Did you actually watch the videos? I don't think you did. Try again. Perhaps you'll learn something, because what you posted isn't phonetics.

Salix phonetically is sa'luhks, not Say-lix. You're not even pronouncing the 'a' correctly.

thank you.

if you intended the sound to be 'y' then why didn't you type the letter y?
the 'w' is still 100% wrong. couldn't be wronger. that sound doesn't exist in Hebrew. it's a 'v' sound. lips+teeth. 'w' has no teeth.

and the point about salix vs. thanix was not vowels. it's that similar is not correct in pronounciation.

edit: the 'v' is a hook. look it up! that's why 'w' is wrong. nothing is being connected.