Theme of the Bible

[joeboonda]

What evidence would you provide that the Book of Mormon is just modified bible passages written by one man?

Much of the BoM was plagiarized WORD FOR WORD from the King James Bible. If it was translated from 1500 year old plates, I can understand how it might have verses with similiar meanings, but not EXACT words from the KJ Bible which was an english translation of the Hebrew and Greek and had not even been written until 1611. One man copied exact passages straight from the KJ Bible, which were written by authors such as Paul, etc. and attributed them to some other author.

 

[SoyLeche]

Much of the BoM was plagiarized WORD FOR WORD from the King James Bible. If it was translated from 1500 year old plates, I can understand how it might have verses with similiar meanings, but not EXACT words from the KJ Bible which was an english translation of the Hebrew and Greek and had not even been written until 1611. One man copied exact passages straight from the KJ Bible, which were written by authors such as Paul, etc. and attributed them to some other author.

Define "much" - with examples, please.

And, it doesn't count as "plagerism" if the original author is cited in the work.

 

[joeboonda]

Moroni 7
45 And acharity suffereth long, and is bkind, and cenvieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily dprovoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
I Cor. 13
4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Here we have almost word for word verses from Corinthians, written by Paul, from the King James Translation, attributed to Moroni translated from the Golden Plates. How in the world can one believe anything but that these were taken straight from the particular, english, King James Bible, from Paul's letter? How were these verses translated from from some form of ancient egyptian almost word for word like the King James when the plates were some 1500 years old and the King James had not even been written? They weren't, they were plagiarized by Joseph Smith, simple as that. (I had a chart of many verses like these, but I cannot find it)

 

[joeboonda]

A similar problem affects Mormon chapter 9. Verses 22 through 24 read

For behold, thus said Jesus Christ, the Son of God, unto his disciples who should tarry, yea, and also to all his disciples, in the hearing of the multitude: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature; And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned; And these signs shall follow them that believe--in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover...​

Similarly, Ether 4:18 reads

Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name.​

Both these passages are quotations from Mark 16, verses 15 through 18:

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

Here we have EXACT phrases from Mark attributed to Mormon and Ether. If this is a translation from the 1500 year old Golden Plates, how is it EXACTLY WORD FOR WORD from the King James Translation? It is because it was copied exactly from that particular english translation and not from anywhere else. It is clear to most scholars that much of the Book of Mormon was taken directly from the King James. This was a particular english version which was not translated until 1611, so how can the BoM be an ancient work translated by Joseph Smith? Its not. Does that make sense?

 

[SoyLeche]

the whole passage, which scholars have labeled “the Hymn to Charity,” was shown early in this century by a number of first-rate investigators working independently (A. Harnack, J. Weiss, R. Reizenstein) to have originated not with Paul at all, but to go back to some older but unknown source: Paul is merely quoting from the record. (Nibley, 1989, 216.)

LDS Criticisms-- Bible Plagiarism

Since they had access to many of the same ancient scriptures as Paul (and many of which we no longer have access to), they could have easily been both quoting an earlier source.

 

[SoyLeche]

A similar problem affects Mormon chapter 9. Verses 22 through 24 read

For behold, thus said Jesus Christ, the Son of God, unto his disciples who should tarry, yea, and also to all his disciples, in the hearing of the multitude: Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature; And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believeth not shall be damned; And these signs shall follow them that believe--in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover...​

Similarly, Ether 4:18 reads

Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name.​

Both these passages are quotations from Mark 16, verses 15 through 18:

And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.​

Here we have EXACT phrases from Mark attributed to Mormon and Ether. If this is a translation from the 1500 year old Golden Plates, how is it EXACTLY WORD FOR WORD from the King James Translation? It is because it was copied exactly from that particular english translation and not from anywhere else. It is clear to most scholars that much of the Book of Mormon was taken directly from the King James. This was a particular english version which was not translated until 1611, so how can the BoM be an ancient work translated by Joseph Smith? Its not. Does that make sense?

First of all, Ether isn't speaking in Ether chapter 4 - Moroni is (he is also the author of Mormon chapter 9). And Moroni lived in a time after Christ had visited the Nephites. Moroni and Mark are both quoting Christ.

 

[joeboonda]

First of all, Ether isn't speaking in Ether chapter 4 - Moroni is (he is also the author of Mormon chapter 9). And Moroni lived in a time after Christ had visited the Nephites. Moroni and Mark are both quoting Christ.

No, Joseph Smith is quoting the King James Bible, simple as that. If it was translated from the Golden Plates, it would read differently. And everywhere else the BoM quotes Mathew and other places, it is EXACTLY, verse by verse, word for word THE KING JAMES BIBLE! Friend, Joseph Smith copied from the King James, he did NOT translate some 1500 year old plates and they happened to come out exactly as the King James! Think! IT would not be word for word the KJV, don't you get that?

Its the same as if I came and said I found these ancient manuscripts and they came out word for word copies of the New International Version, or the Revised Standard Version. These are PARTICULAR versions. The KJV is a particular version. How can his plates translate exactly into the particular version of the day? They can't, just as if I said I translated these ancient manuscripts and they just happened to read exactly like the NIV. You would know I was crazy if I said that, and such is the case here. Do you get that? Think about it.

 

[joeboonda]

LDS Criticisms-- Bible Plagiarism

Since they had access to many of the same ancient scriptures as Paul (and many of which we no longer have access to), they could have easily been both quoting an earlier source.

And it happenned to come out exactly as the King James?

 

[Sonic247]

The theme of the Old Testament was an eye for an eye.

The theme of the New Testament is Forgiveness.

Quite an evolutionary change.

Actually it is still a move in the same direction, it's a naturaul tendency to pay back a person more then what they did to you. And it was from the law it's a pretty fair law but God's mercy is greater then the law.

 

[SoyLeche]

And it happenned to come out exactly as the King James?

Read the link if you are interested.

 

[Comprehend]

Much of the BoM was plagiarized WORD FOR WORD from the King James Bible. If it was translated from 1500 year old plates, I can understand how it might have verses with similiar meanings, but not EXACT words from the KJ Bible which was an english translation of the Hebrew and Greek and had not even been written until 1611. One man copied exact passages straight from the KJ Bible, which were written by authors such as Paul, etc. and attributed them to some other author.

again, what evidence would you provide that the Book of Mormon is just Bible passages modified by one man?

All you have done so far is to claim it. Just saying it doesn't make it true. Would you care to provide evidence that there was only one author and that the author copied passages of the bible?

 

[Sonic247]

Why is Jesus quoting Isaiah to the nephites anyway, Ussually prophecy is to explain a future event not something that already happened, in the gospels he read one verse of Isaiah and plainly said it was reffering to him, because he was showing that he was the messiah, but in the BoM he basically is just reading Isaiah.

 

[SoyLeche]

Why is Jesus quoting Isaiah to the nephites anyway, Ussually prophecy is to explain a future event not something that already happened, in the gospels he read one verse of Isaiah and plainly said it was reffering to him, because he was showing that he was the messiah, but in the BoM he basically is just reading Isaiah.

You'd have to ask him. My guess is that the Nephites in general weren't as familiar with Isaiah as the Jews were so they required a bit more than an allusion to him.

Also, we don't have everything that he said to either group - just what the later compilers decided to put in.

 

[Sonic247]

again, what evidence would you provide that the Book of Mormon is just Bible passages modified by one man?

All you have done so far is to claim it. Just saying it doesn't make it true. Would you care to provide evidence that there was only one author and that the author copied passages of the bible?

There was one translator anyway, apparantly only Joseph Smith could translate the golden plates with his special glasses from "reformed egyptian"

 

[Sonic247]

You'd have to ask him. My guess is that the Nephites in general weren't as familiar with Isaiah as the Jews were so they required a bit more than an allusion to him.

Also, we don't have everything that he said to either group - just what the later compilers decided to put in.

Well does he preach the gospel to them, does he tell them how he died for their sins and what not? (I really don't know I havn't read all of it.)

 

[Comprehend]

Why is Jesus quoting Isaiah to the nephites anyway, Ussually prophecy is to explain a future event not something that already happened, in the gospels he read one verse of Isaiah and plainly said it was reffering to him, because he was showing that he was the messiah, but in the BoM he basically is just reading Isaiah.

um, no.

Jesus doesn't quote Isaiah to the Nephites... the Isaiah chapters are in Second Nephi about 500 years before Christ is born and the chapters are talking about the coming of Jesus Christ which was to occur in the future, the future of the Jews, and other things to happen in the future.

 

[SoyLeche]

Well does he preach the gospel to them, does he tell them how he died for their sins and what not? (I really don't know I havn't read all of it.)

Then maybe you should read it

 

[SoyLeche]

um, no.

Jesus doesn't quote Isaiah to the Nephites... the Isaiah chapters are in Second Nephi about 500 years before Christ is born and the chapters are talking about the coming of Jesus Christ which was to occur in the future, the future of the Jews, and other things to happen in the future.

There are a few Isaiah chapters quoted in 3rd Nephi too. Some Malachi chapters as well.

 

[Comprehend]

There was one translator anyway, apparantly only Joseph Smith could translate the golden plates with his special glasses from "reformed egyptian"

and how does "one translator" help your argument? You claimed it was authored by one man. Are you giving up on that silly claim already or are you ready to provide some evidence?

 

[Comprehend]

There are a few Isaiah chapters quoted in 3rd Nephi too. Some Malachi chapters as well.

oh yeah, sorry.