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Theocracies and fundamentalism

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I believe democracy is a good thing. HOWEVER, I also believe that what we see today in Western counties can hardly be called democracy. No wonder discontent is growing almost everywhere.

As far as Christianity is concerned, it is not the task of the church to be the ruler of countries.
Christians can be politicians but not if it morphs into a kind of Christian theocracy.
Christians normally accept the chosen leaders of a country and follow the laws for as long as the laws do not force people to act contrary to Christian beliefs.
The task of the church is not to govern.

But the West is currently in a very deep crisis and because of rampant secularism, democracy is failing.

Democracy is doing fine in some places. If your supposition were correct, there should be a pretty clear correlation between declining religiosity and declining democratic standards...
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
@Estro Felino

Why do Marxism and Communism require Atheism? If its to do with the Catholic Church being too powerful then why did Communism become so popular in China, Vietnam, Cambodia and North Korea (countries with a tiny Catholic population)?

You might find this interesting...

Why Marxists Are Atheists

It's worth noting that whilst communists are generally atheists, atheists are not generally communists.
I'm a secularist, and would find Marxist-inspired exclusions as distasteful and harmful as theocratic-inspired exclusions.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
@Estro Felino

Why do Marxism and Communism require Atheism? If its to do with the Catholic Church being too powerful then why did Communism become so popular in China, Vietnam, Cambodia and North Korea (countries with a tiny Catholic population)?

In North Korea, the eradication of religion is directly linked to the enforced worship of the political leader.

In Chine, one could only assume that's the case when Mao was ruling, but that's not proven so it's only an assumption based on his crusade against religion, uniforming everyone and making himself the central figure of idolisation.

Must do a study to understand these regimes properly. Otherwise we could make conjecture. Interesting.
 

Alien826

No religious beliefs
“When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movements become headlong - faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thoughts of obstacles and forget the precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it's too late.”

― Frank Herbert, Dune
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Why do people say that a theocracy / a country with an official religion is a bad thing ? They say literal interpretation of a religion would be bad too. Are these 2 things related ?
First, freedom of religion (all part of freedom of thought) is a basic human right. Theocracies have a long history of violating this right.

Whether something is literal or figurative is part of reading comprehension. We are all supposed to have learned how to tell the difference in our English classes. The problem is, some people have a knack for it, and others struggle with it. To say that a piece of writing is literal when in fact it is a form of figurative speech, whether metaphor or myth or whatever, is simply ERROR. You would not want to base your life on a misunderstanding of a text.
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Why do people say that a theocracy / a country with an official religion is a bad thing ? They say literal interpretation of a religion would be bad too. Are these 2 things related ?
A country with an official religion isn't always a bad thing, in example there is Norway. It's even possible that a theocracy wouldn't be horrible or oppressive if it allowed for people to not participate in it's religion and allowed them to practice their own.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Executing apostates and jailing homosexuals

Yeah, so I don't want a theocracy, even if it's NOT executing apostates or gaoling homosexuals. But it's worth noting that an assumption that the most extreme interpretation of any religion is the version which follows it 'completely' isn't overly accurate.
The best proof against Islamic extremism are Muslims.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
A country with an official religion isn't always a bad thing, in example there is Norway. It's even possible that a theocracy wouldn't be horrible or oppressive if it allowed for people to not participate in it's religion and allowed them to practice their own.

Theoretically...but as a couple have mentioned, it's doubtful they'd be the sorts of religions trying to gain control, in more practical terms.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No more than a poem is flawed for employing metaphor.
Social proscriptions, and mandated, orthodox doctrine, behavior, and laws, are rarely based on poetry, unless it's religious poetry.

When religious doctrine gains coercive power as a tool of the élite, it's used for social control, suppression of dissent and maintenance of the status quo and the system supporting the leadership/owner class.

Religion-based regimes are repressive.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
...On a somewhat unrelated note, the RSS/BJP in India isn't fundamentalist, if you want fundamentalist Hinduism then the Hindu Mahasabha is to blame: they shot Mahatma Gandhi
Fundamentalist Hinduism seems like an oxymoron. The BJP is more authoritarian [RWA] than fundamentalist.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Would you support have government support ALL religions in a country then?
No -- NO religions.
Just look at history: and endless series of crusades, religious wars and social repression.

Government should concern itself with practical, utilitarian policies. Whenever it attempts to promote religion-based policy, or even to advantage a particular religion, bad things happen.
Then would you consider that the only legitimate religions are ones supported by the state?
What is a "legitimate" religion?
Individual freedom of conscience is a fundamental right.

Unless there's a strong "wall of separation" [T. Jefferson] between church and state, the church will arrogate concessions, advantages, financial advantages, and support from The State. Dissenting beliefs and behaviors will be suppressed.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So, who makes the subjective decision that a religion 'work for the common good and the welfare of the community' but the government?
The religion itself, completely independent of government.
If Sikhs want to feed the poor in their community, or Christian churches want to support political refugees, that's entirely their affair; decided and organized by themselves, for their own reasons, with no government involvement whatsoever.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@Estro Felino

Why do Marxism and Communism require Atheism? If its to do with the Catholic Church being too powerful then why did Communism become so popular in China, Vietnam, Cambodia and North Korea (countries with a tiny Catholic population)?
They don't -- though Marx did see religion as an opiate.

The anti-religion mandates of the Soviet state, for example, were not Communist (nor was the state ;)). They were Authoritarian, using official, "communist" doctrine as a tool of the state to suppress religious dissent.

Consider the Hutterites, a Christian religious community -- and straight-out Communist, (or 'communal', if you prefer).
They hold all property in common, except a few, personal toiletries and such. They allocate resources according to need. They organize work according to ability. They make community and financial decisions communally -- and they base it all on biblical doctrine.

Rather than mandating atheism, the more communal/communist a community is [I'm thinking Bruderhof, monastic, Amish, Hutterite, &al], the more religious it seems to be.
 
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