Theocracies and fundamentalism

[Valjean]

I believe democracy is a good thing. HOWEVER, I also believe that what we see today in Western counties can hardly be called democracy. No wonder discontent is growing almost everywhere.

What we see in the US is Oligarchy: Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
People are discontented because they are being exploited.

The treasure of the richest nation on Earth has become almost entirely concentrated in the hands of a very few individuals and corporations. The poor are poorer, and the Middle Class is disintegrating.
This is all by design, initiated by the Powell Memo [ The Powell Memo: A Call-to-Arms for Corporations | BillMoyers.com ], Which was later implemented by Reagan's Neoliberal revolution ("trickle-down" economics).

The right-wing Corporatists, and their GOP lackeys, have successfully shifted the popular blame for the economic and social decline to the "Radical Leftists."

But the West is currently in a very deep crisis and because of rampant secularism, democracy is failing.

I wouldn't say it's due to secularism. It's due more to corporatism; to Neoliberal Capitalism.

Religion is, potentially, just as exploitative, and is, today, being exploited by the GOP to divert the public from the real source of their discontent.

 

[Valjean]

Jesus said 'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's/'

He was evading the question with rhetorical gobbledygook.

 

[ronki23]

The best proof against Islamic extremism are Muslims.

What do you mean ?

 

[ronki23]

Fundamentalist Hinduism seems like an oxymoron. The BJP is more authoritarian [RWA] than fundamentalist.

If the BJP or Communist Party of China were authoritarian then there'd be no crime as it would be a police state where people would be afraid to go to prison. Both India and China are high in crime although India has way more crime than China. BJP and CPC are paternalistic: doing what they think is best for the majority.

 

[Alien826]

Jesus said 'Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's/'

According to the story, enemies of Jesus set this up as loaded question. The Jewish people were against being taxed by the Romans, so if Jesus said to pay taxes, he would look bad in their eyes. On the other hand, if he said to not pay the taxes, he could be reported to the Romans as a revolutionary. Modern day politicians are skilled in this kind of questioning, and they also have skill in getting out of it, often called "pivoting". Jesus, came up with an answer that got him out of the bind, and that's about it. We can't go on to extrapolate much more.

 

[Alien826]

What we see in the US is Oligarchy: Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
People are discontented because they are being exploited.

The treasure of the richest nation on Earth has become almost entirely concentrated in the hands of a very few individuals and corporations. The poor are poorer, and the Middle Class is disintegrating.
This is all by design, initiated by the Powell Memo [ The Powell Memo: A Call-to-Arms for Corporations | BillMoyers.com ], Which was later implemented by Reagan's Neoliberal revolution ("trickle-down" economics).

The right-wing Corporatists, and their GOP lackeys, have successfully shifted the popular blame for the economic and social decline to the "Radical Leftists."
I wouldn't say it's due to secularism. It's due more to corporatism; to Neoliberal Capitalism.

Religion is, potentially, just as exploitative, and is, today, being exploited by the GOP to divert the public from the real source of their discontent.

Great to introduce the Powell Memo. Many people don't realize that the "right-wingers" have been undermining the New Deal for a long time.

Incidentally I blame to a great extent Democrat complacency for their success.

 

[Valjean]

If the BJP or Communist Party of China were authoritarian then there'd be no crime as it would be a police state where people would be afraid to go to prison. Both India and China are high in crime although India has way more crime than China. BJP and CPC are paternalistic: doing what they think is best for the majority.

It's true that an authoritarian, police state can reduce crime, but at what expense? Do you value freedom and a free society, or do want a society of children, unable to think for themselves, act on their own initiative, or make independent choices?

It's frightened, insecure people who crave the security of an authoritarian, strong-father figure, making their decisions for them.

 

[Valjean]

Great to introduce the Powell Memo. Many people don't realize that the "right-wingers" have been undermining the New Deal for a long time.

Indeed, the Jan. 6th, Capitol insurrection wasn't the 1st attempted coup. The 1st time the oligarchs gained political ascendancy it led to a civil war. The second time was the Businessman's Plot, to overthrow FDR in a military coup and install a Fascist government. Wall Street's Failed 1934 Coup
The Right continues slowly to undermine Democracy.

Incidentally I blame to a great extent Democrat complacency for their success.

The Democrats used to be the party of labor. It championed workers' rights, the eight hour day, unions, a minimum wage, workman's compensation, &c. Unfortunately, the Democrats have abandoned workers' interests in an attempt to garner more political contribution from the technical class. Workers and much of the middle class were left flapping in the wind.

The Right has been quick to exploit workers' legitimate grievances, and their media monopoly has enabled them to convince the workers that their problems are due to 'radical, left-wing socialists' and an immigrant invasion.
Thomas Frank: How the Democratic Party Became a Vehicle of Aristocracy - scheerpost.com

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why do people say that a theocracy / a country with an official religion is a bad thing ?

Generally? It's because they've thought about it for more than a minute.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Probably because it is assumed that a theocracy would be grounded in religious traditions that are believed to be inherently oppressive and problematic. This assumption is erroneous, but understandable considering the religious traditions most likely to impose theocracy are authoritarian in orientation.

Non-traditional theocracies are a problem, too.

Take the Muenster Revolt: a bunch of Mennonites accidentally getting high on rye mould and following what "God" tells them to do? Also a bad time for all concerned.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's worth noting that having an official religion isn't quite the same thing as having a theocracy. Christianity is the official religion of the UK but UK politics tend to be significantly less religious in nature than US politics for example.

You have bishops in Parliament for the sole reason that they're bishops. Your politics seem pretty religious to me.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You might find this interesting...

Why Marxists Are Atheists

It's worth noting that whilst communists are generally atheists, atheists are not generally communists.
I'm a secularist, and would find Marxist-inspired exclusions as distasteful and harmful as theocratic-inspired exclusions.

I'm not sure that's true. I think you'll find that most communistic groups are religious... e.g. the Hutterites and the Shakers.

 

[Erebus]

You have bishops in Parliament for the sole reason that they're bishops. Your politics seem pretty religious to me.

I can't say I'm a fan of that either. In practice though, I would still say religion has less of a role in our politics than it does in the US. This is of course based on an outsider's observation of US politics so I may be off base.

It's not especially common for politicians to bring up their religious beliefs here, let alone overtly use them as justification for policymaking. Tony Blair was famously warned, "We don't do God" when he was tempted to bring up his Christianity. We're also generally much more accepting of politicians having beliefs other than Christianity, despite having bishops granted a seat in government. One of the major frontrunners for leader of the Conservative party was Rishi Sunak, a Hindu. Can you imagine that happening in the Republican party?

The fact is that religion just isn't anywhere near as important to Brits as it is to Americans for the most part and our politicians are fully aware of that.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

What do you mean ?

Exactly what I said. Muslims are more effective at combatting Islamic extremism than outsiders.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm not sure that's true. I think you'll find that most communistic groups are religious... e.g. the Hutterites and the Shakers.

Should have said 'Marxists' rather than communist in the broader sense.

 

[Five Solas]

Democracy is doing fine in some places. If your supposition were correct, there should be a pretty clear correlation between declining religiosity and declining democratic standards...

Most probably. Secularism has very little to offer - apart from a WOKE culture perhaps.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Most probably. Secularism has very little to offer - apart from a WOKE culture perhaps.

Well, I have a different faith. I am as a human a WOKE since I am neurodiverse.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Most probably. Secularism has very little to offer - apart from a WOKE culture perhaps.

There's that whole "religious freedom" thing that secularism also offers.

It's weird how religious people devalue freedom of worship.

Under a secular system, you're free to worship as you please as long as you don't violate anyone else's rights. You wouldn't get that in most theocracies.

Remember: in a theocracy, you don't get to pick the religion or denomination that's in charge, but odds are it's going to be one that will want to suppress your denomination.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Most probably. Secularism has very little to offer - apart from a WOKE culture perhaps.

You connect secularism and wokism?

That seems...well...self serving at best.

 

[Five Solas]

You connect secularism and wokism?

That seems...well...self serving at best.

WOKE is at its core secular