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Theological terrorists

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Your evaluation is just you saying stuff about what you think. How to you plan to objectively demonstrate to me
that there is anything to which to apply levels? How do you falsify your claim?
All you need to do is look at any of the research that developmentalists have done in a multitude of different developmental areas, such as moral development, cognitive development, ego development, etc., with names like Piaget, Loveginer, Gilligan, etc. You can also include stages of faith development which you can see from the well-regarded research of James Fowler, for instance, whose book on Stages of Faith, I have read several times.

There are marked, identifiable, repeatable patterns of development that people go through different stages from less sophisticated to more sophisticated. You cannot skip stages, and you must go through each stage to the next. Each stage is "higher" than the previous stage, in that it builds upon, yet transcends what came before it. But not everyone develops to the higher stages.

And why this is considered "deeper" is simple. Think of a pyramid. The depth at the first layer of blocks is relatively shallow, while its span is greater. But at the top, the depth includes all the layers below it, but it's span is relatively small by comparison to the lower layers. So it has greater depth, but less span, or "fewer" at the top. That is what I mean.

Is this falsifiable? Yes, show a pattern that does not fit these stages. So far, no one is able to do that. These are all based up scientific research. No, this is not just "me saying so". This is based up objective research.

You keep flinging around the words depth and level as though you have defined them. You haven't. You haven't defined what they are a measure of.
By depth, I mean exactly what that word indicate. More knowledge, more understanding, greater depth, versus surface understandings. They are a measure of awareness, knowledge, understanding, comprehension, and moreover skill sets. I practice Taijiquan for instance. At 3 plus years of daily practice, I have a fair amount more depth of understanding of it than I did in my first few months. But there are those who have a depth of understanding that by far surpasses my own, and depth I will never attain since I've started so much later in life. Depth is a matter of experience and grown. Depth is developmental in nature. It's a measure of experience and understanding.

I don't take Ken Hamm's religious claims seriously because, fundamentally, he has failed to demonstrate his claims.
He makes perfectly consistent claims based upon his depth of understanding of science. But his understanding of science is extremely shallow, and therefore, he make gross errors compared to someone whose depth of understanding science is far greater than his.

I take scientific claims seriously when they are falsifiable and there is demonstrable and relevant evidence to support them. I don't care about "depth" or "levels". I care about reason and evidence. Please note that the conjunction is not "or".
You should care about it. People who have great depths of understanding are experts. Be that in science, or an understanding of human nature and the nature of our spiritual beings. Empirical science is not the full measure of human experience. Not by any stretch of the imagination. To make science a religion that way, is really no different that saying if it's not in the Bible, you shouldn't believe it. Both views show a marked lack of understanding the depths of reality.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
All you need to do is look at any of the research that developmentalists have done in a multitude of different developmental areas, such as moral development, cognitive development, ego development, etc., with names like Piaget, Loveginer, Gilligan, etc. You can also include stages of faith development which you can see from the well-regarded research of James Fowler, for instance, whose book on Stages of Faith, I have read several times.
This is a bait and switch. Twice over. Cognitive development in psychology is not "faith" development. Second, no one is claiming that you don't have faith. The question is do you have faith in something objectively real, and can you demonstrate that that thing actual exist?

What is that objectively real thing? Be succinct. Demonstrate to me that thing exists.

Until you can do that, all you are giving me is bloviation.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This is a bait and switch. Twice over. Cognitive development in psychology is not "faith" development.
Not in the least. Development is development, whether that's cognitive, moral, faith, egoic, etc. They all follow the exact same patterns of growth. This is spot on in entirety to this discussion.

Second, no one is claiming that you don't have faith. The question is do you have faith in something objectively real, and can you demonstrate that that thing actual exist?
No. Faith development, and I linked you to his research, is about meaning making. That is true of the church-goer, or the non-church goer. Meaning making may include scientific evidence, but it most certainly is not based up on it for anyone. The role of scientific evidence is more secondary, such as how do you fit that into find meaning in the world. Some people ignore it or deny it to preserve their less developed forms of faith, or meaning-making, and others at higher stages recognize it and try to integrate it with their faith. I've studied Fowlers work, so I know what I am talking about here for the most part.

If you doubt what I say about faith being meaning making, look at the title of his book:
Stages of Faith: The Psychology of Human Development and the Quest for Meaning

That is psychology, just as much as cognitive, moral, and ego stages of development. It's all under the same scientific umbrella. The title of the book even says it: The Psychology of Human Development and the Quest for Meaning.


What is that objectively real thing? Be succinct. Demonstrate to me that thing exists.
Patterns. That what science looks at, and maps out to create models of objective reality. The things I am talking about are researchable by anyone. They are not subjective feelings and opinions. They are 3rd person, scientific views of objective reality.

Until you can do that, all you are giving me is bloviation.
Try not to insult me. You only make yourself look foolish. I'll show you more respect than that, even though I know objectively that you are in error.
 
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ppp

Well-Known Member
Not in the least. Development is development, whether that's cognitive, moral, faith, egoic, etc. They all follow the exact same patterns of growth. This is spot on in entirety to this discussion.
Well, that's just false.

This is a bait and switch. Twice over. Cognitive development in psychology is not "faith" development. Second, no one is claiming that you don't have faith. The question is do you have faith in something objectively real, and can you demonstrate that that thing actual exist?

Well, that is all I need to know.

Try not to insult me. You only make yourself look foolish. I'll show you more respect than that.
I understand that it feels gratuitous to you, but I am being straight with you. Until you can show me the objective foundation, the explanations are just ornament and fluff. If you want to call me unwise, or limited or shallow, or close minded, or intolerant, or carnal or reprobate, that is up to you. You will not badger or shame or cajole me into budging on that point.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Science heating up a body mass that once was a self consuming body in spatial history is the meaning of terror historic.

Science a human choice destroyed all life on Earth once. Archaeological examples seems to support that human memory of living the terror of changes to a cold fused planetary mass. The body which was stated to be God O philosophy of the stone.

Never give God a name they quote and never change natural history, seeing it is owned by the condition space. How it was taught.

Memory is a subliminal idea of dreams gained, visions seen and hearing of voice....for the God statements and status explains that truth. To be told.

Telling first is owned with the highest self. A healthy self, a healthy mind psyche and the inventor false designer/theist self. Not any God. The reality of a human choice.

Motivation of human choice. Self owned, self realised, self believed and the want to teach real for anyone who is affected by history and destruction. It is innate in all of us....how much effort you exert in your owned teaching practices.

Logic and human study says if you constantly input negative information into a young psyche, they become self destructive by the conditioning. A fact of the human psyche. So the teaching method always need to be considered before it is applied.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, that's just false.




Well, that is all I need to know.


I understand that it feels gratuitous to you, but I am being straight with you. Until you can show me the objective foundation, the explanations are just ornament and fluff. If you want to call me unwise, or limited or shallow, or close minded, or intolerant, or carnal or reprobate, that is up to you. You will not badger or shame or cajole me into budging on that point.
https://www.amazon.com/Stages-Faith...eywords=stages+of+faith&qid=1607383258&sr=8-1

Loevinger's stages of ego development - Wikipedia.

Stages of Moral Development - Lawrence Kohlberg - Educational Technology.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/piaget.html

http://www.cook-greuter.com/9 levels of increasing embrace update 1 07.pdf

Don't know what more you want. If this isn't good enough for you, maybe you should give up on science and go back to mythic-literal beliefs, which honestly, it sounds like your still at in how you approach these things. Insulting me, proves my point. You have nothing.

This will be my final post to you, as you clearly are not interested in any of this.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
https://www.amazon.com/Stages-Faith...eywords=stages+of+faith&qid=1607383258&sr=8-1

Loevinger's stages of ego development - Wikipedia.

Stages of Moral Development - Lawrence Kohlberg - Educational Technology.

https://www.simplypsychology.org/piaget.html

http://www.cook-greuter.com/9 levels of increasing embrace update 1 07.pdf

Don't know what more you want. If this isn't good enough for you, maybe you should give up on science and go back to mythic-literal beliefs, which honestly, it sounds like your still at in how you approach these things. Insulting me, proves my point. You have nothing.
You have given me nothing. None of that proves the existence of a god. And without a real foundation for your faith, there is no referent for development. You're just calling yourself "sophisticated" with nothing more than what you think of yourself as a standard.

This will be my final post to you, as you clearly are not interested in any of this.
Until you have a demonstrable god to act as a reference, that is probably for the best.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I believe we end up alongside others that think and feel.....as we do

how else to be happy?
how else to be fair?

so what is there to be afraid of?

hehehehehe
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
I am curious how this "remoteness from God" will look compared to what we currently see?

I see it is up to each of us to determine if we will choose to look for more than we currently see.

We have Love and lack of Love. So it is up to you to determine what is the source and greatest Love you can imagine and then determine what is the worst result a lack of that Love is.

I may see God as the perfect example of Love and lack of God as the greatest evil. You may not see that is so.

Regards Tony
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Not everyone believe hell is a literal place where the God of Love sends people for endless tortures because they disappointed him, and now it's time for payback. Hell is a metaphor for our own sense of fear and isolation from God here in this life, which if we don't move beyond will follow us to the next.

It's not a place God creates for people, nor a place God sends us to. It's a condition or state of mind that is "like", or "as if" it were torture, compared to the Freedom of Love. Hell is Fear. Love if Freedom. God is Love, not fear. Love is incapable of inflicting torture upon others. That is not Love. That is Fear and Hatred.

Those who preach God sends people to hell, preach a God of Fear. Those who imagine God that way, imagine from their own fear and guilt and shame. But that God is not real. That God does not exist, except in the mind of those who live with Fear.

Do you have any Bible scriptures demonstrating that Hell is a mindset rather than a literal place of judgment?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you have any Bible scriptures demonstrating that Hell is a mindset rather than a literal place of judgment?
Yes, the ones you quoted from. I just do not interpret those literally, but metaphorically. They are "as if" stories, giving the mind something it can more easily imagine, to point to something more abstract. Think of these as parables. Jesus taught in parables all the time. It was his signature style of teaching.

So what is a parable? Are they literal stories that really happened in history? Or are they "as if" stories to get the mind to think of something they point to beyond the stories. I can tell you assuredly they are the latter, and not the former. Who was this Good Samaritan? Was that a literal person, or a fictional character to point to a principle or a truth beyond the fiction?

If that is hard to grasp, then I'll give some examples from scripture of how truths are spoken as metaphors. "Christ in you," says the Apostle Paul. What? To read that literally, should we imagine Jesus is in our liver, or our stomach? Our cells? Our bones? Or should we understand that metaphorically? Christ in you, means a state or condition of our being? I can easily say it's the latter and not the former. Same thing with being sent to "hell".

To take hell literally, then you have some impossible dilemmas to deal with. If God is everywhere, then where is this hell place? Is it inside of God? Obviously that cannot be because there can be no darkness inside of light. Fear and hatred cannot exist inside of God. Scripture clearly teaches that. Then where is it, if it is a literal place? Outside of God? How is that possible if God is infinite? Scripture teaches "Where can I go from your presence?" Meaning, there is nowhere outside of God, literally speaking. If hell exists outside God, then God is not infinite, nor all powerful. God would be more like a creature, a created being, than the Creator. And so forth.

I could go on, but it's pretty clear to see that reading scripture literally will naturally lead you to impossible, irreconcilable contradictions about the nature and being of God. If read metaphorically however, then it makes sense. Hell, or heaven, are states of being. And real world, lived experiences in fact do show that to be true. My own personal experience first and foremost reveals that, and then to use reason and logic, as I showed above in how reading scripture like that literally violates logic, should be enough to point you in the right direction.

I'm sure I can think of other examples, but this is my first post of the day and I'm still waking up. :)
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Do you have any Bible scriptures demonstrating that Hell is a mindset rather than a literal place of judgment?

One of the greatest meditations is this

Isaiah 45:7"7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Heaven is nearness to God/Light, Evil/Darkness is remoteness from that light.

We are born at the edge of darkness and the beginning of light, the Light is the potential, the animal or self in us is the darkness. Christ said we must be born again into the Spirit, to find true life.

Regards Tony
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
Yes, the ones you quoted from. I just do not interpret those literally, but metaphorically. They are "as if" stories, giving the mind something it can more easily imagine, to point to something more abstract. Think of these as parables. Jesus taught in parables all the time. It was his signature style of teaching.

So what is a parable? Are they literal stories that really happened in history? Or are they "as if" stories to get the mind to think of something they point to beyond the stories. I can tell you assuredly they are the latter, and not the former. Who was this Good Samaritan? Was that a literal person, or a fictional character to point to a principle or a truth beyond the fiction?

If that is hard to grasp, then I'll give some examples from scripture of how truths are spoken as metaphors. "Christ in you," says the Apostle Paul. What? To read that literally, should we imagine Jesus is in our liver, or our stomach? Our cells? Our bones? Or should we understand that metaphorically? Christ in you, means a state or condition of our being? I can easily say it's the latter and not the former. Same thing with being sent to "hell".

To take hell literally, then you have some impossible dilemmas to deal with. If God is everywhere, then where is this hell place? Is it inside of God? Obviously that cannot be because there can be no darkness inside of light. Fear and hatred cannot exist inside of God. Scripture clearly teaches that. Then where is it, if it is a literal place? Outside of God? How is that possible if God is infinite? Scripture teaches "Where can I go from your presence?" Meaning, there is nowhere outside of God, literally speaking. If hell exists outside God, then God is not infinite, nor all powerful. God would be more like a creature, a created being, than the Creator. And so forth.

I could go on, but it's pretty clear to see that reading scripture literally will naturally lead you to impossible, irreconcilable contradictions about the nature and being of God. If read metaphorically however, then it makes sense. Hell, or heaven, are states of being. And real world, lived experiences in fact do show that to be true. My own personal experience first and foremost reveals that, and then to use reason and logic, as I showed above in how reading scripture like that literally violates logic, should be enough to point you in the right direction.

I'm sure I can think of other examples, but this is my first post of the day and I'm still waking up. :)

Jesus and the apostles spoke of Hell outside of parables.

Jesus is in my organs, His Spirit "holds all things together at the sub-elemental level". God is everywhere and knows all. Yes.

God's power will support Hell, likewise as above, although God will not suffer inside of Hell.

There are no Bible contradictions, but talking about their supposed existence is a goal post shift. Even if there are Bible contradictions . . .

Jesus and the apostles spoke of Hell outside of parables, and their testimony is consistent.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
One of the greatest meditations is this

Isaiah 45:7"7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Heaven is nearness to God/Light, Evil/Darkness is remoteness from that light.

We are born at the edge of darkness and the beginning of light, the Light is the potential, the animal or self in us is the darkness. Christ said we must be born again into the Spirit, to find true life.

Regards Tony

This not detract from Jesus and the apostles describing Hell as a dark place of literal suffering.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus and the apostles spoke of Hell outside of parables.
In simple terms, a parable is a metaphor. You can say all metaphors are parables, in a very broad sense. When Jesus says, the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, that is a metaphor. The kingdom of heaven is not a literal mustard seed, and if you should go to the grocery store and buy a tin of them, you aren't bringing home the host of heaven in a can, though I'm sure some might imagine so.

Same thing with hell as a metaphor for the suffering we experience as a result of separation from the Divine. "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," is a metaphor to describe how we suffer in rejecting the Divine. If it's literally, factually true, do you believe people in the afterlife will have literal teeth? Why would they? Do they need to eat food still? Why would God give the risen dead teeth, or even eyeballs that secrete fluids and weep, for that matter? The only reasonable way to understand these statements, is if they are "as if" or "like" statements. "As if" statements, are metaphors.

Jesus is in my organs, His Spirit "holds all things together at the sub-elemental level". God is everywhere and knows all. Yes.
Then do you accept Christ is in a dog, a cat, a tree, the clouds, the moon, the sky, the stars? Actually, I do, and I doubt you do as that would mean you'd be thinking in terms of pantheism, or panentheism which I think more in terms of. I'm pretty sure your theological loyalties do not allow you to think like that. So, what you say above would only be true about your organs and bones, molecules and cells, and atoms and quarks, if you were a panentheist.

No, I personally do not believe when Paul said, "Christ in you, the hope of glory", he was not speaking in terms of panentheism. He was speaking specifically about the heart of believers, or to put a fine point on it, about their state of being as people of faith. That is not a literal statement about the pan-everything'ism of the Divine being in everyone and everything, saint and sinner alike. He meant it as a metaphor for a state of being through faith.

God's power will support Hell, likewise as above, although God will not suffer inside of Hell.
So hell exists inside of God? Is hell part of God? Does God create suffering for people? Is God the source of torture for them? Who created hell? These are problems you have to look at if you take hell as literal, rather than as a metaphor to describe the suffering of our existence living "as if" we were separated from God, unaware of the Divine Presence in ourselves and the world.

That state of being, is suffering, or "hell". We are in hell already, when we live outside awareness of the Divine. That's what salation is. Awakening from that to the Truth that God is in us, or as Paul said, "Christ in you".
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
In simple terms, a parable is a metaphor. You can say all metaphors are parables, in a very broad sense. When Jesus says, the kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, that is a metaphor. The kingdom of heaven is not a literal mustard seed, and if you should go to the grocery store and buy a tin of them, you aren't bringing home the host of heaven in a can, though I'm sure some might imagine so.

Same thing with hell as a metaphor for the suffering we experience as a result of separation from the Divine. "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," is a metaphor to describe how we suffer in rejecting the Divine. If it's literally, factually true, do you believe people in the afterlife will have literal teeth? Why would they? Do they need to eat food still? Why would God give the risen dead teeth, or even eyeballs that secrete fluids and weep, for that matter? The only reasonable way to understand these statements, is if they are "as if" or "like" statements. "As if" statements, are metaphors.


Then do you accept Christ is in a dog, a cat, a tree, the clouds, the moon, the sky, the stars? Actually, I do, and I doubt you do as that would mean you'd be thinking in terms of pantheism, or panentheism which I think more in terms of. I'm pretty sure your theological loyalties do not allow you to think like that. So, what you say above would only be true about your organs and bones, molecules and cells, and atoms and quarks, if you were a panentheist.

No, I personally do not believe when Paul said, "Christ in you, the hope of glory", he was not speaking in terms of panentheism. He was speaking specifically about the heart of believers, or to put a fine point on it, about their state of being as people of faith. That is not a literal statement about the pan-everything'ism of the Divine being in everyone and everything, saint and sinner alike. He meant it as a metaphor for a state of being through faith.


So hell exists inside of God? Is hell part of God? Does God create suffering for people? Is God the source of torture for them? Who created hell? These are problems you have to look at if you take hell as literal, rather than as a metaphor to describe the suffering of our existence living "as if" we were separated from God, unaware of the Divine Presence in ourselves and the world.

That state of being, is suffering, or "hell". We are in hell already, when we live outside awareness of the Divine. That's what salation is. Awakening from that to the Truth that God is in us, or as Paul said, "Christ in you".

I'll have to ask you again, then, how you know when the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles were being literal, metaphorical or both. For example, somehow you know that Paul is speaking about me in Christ (the heart of believers) when he was speaking about Christ in me, which is the opposite.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'll have to ask you again, then, how you know when the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles were being literal, metaphorical or both. For example, somehow you know that Paul is speaking about me in Christ (the heart of believers) when he was speaking about Christ in me, which is the opposite.
I have been answering that in the previous posts. Firstly, from the perspective of experience. Experience illuminates everything. Without experience, all we have is speculations and suppositions based upon concepts and ideas, which is a matter of the head trying to figure out something it has no experience with. That of course, in all cases, in all matters, religious or otherwise, ends up typically quite far off the mark.

As an illustration of that, I always like to share that cartoon someone came up with that to me spot-on nails that difference. I believe I may have shared this with you before, but I'll share it again here to illustrate my first point in how we are able to discern meaning from scripture:
love and scripture.jpg
The second way we can know, if we lack personal experience with something, is with reason and logic. Though not as illuminating as experience, it certainly does give us clues or point us in the right direction of understanding.

I've given several examples in the previous post how hell is not something that can be reconciled logically with a God of Infinite Love. If we are to read those passages as, literal facts and not metaphoric language to point to some abstraction beyond a literal interpretation, we are confronted with irreconcilable contradictions.

"Weeping and gnashing of teeth", if understood literally, means the resurrected dead have teeth and eyes that water. Does that make logical sense to you? Why would they have teeth? Teeth are for chewing food in order to fill our stomachs with what we need in order to continue to live. In a place like hell where no one ever dies, why teeth? Why eyes that secrete fluid?

Compare that now with how Jesus answered that misguided, literalist imagination of the afterlife by the person who asked him about the wife of the brothers who died in succession while she was alive. "Whose wife is she in the afterlife," they naively asked him. Jesus' answer is telling, and directly addresses my pointing out the absurdity of teeth in hell. "They neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels of heaven".

That means, they don't have sex organs! :) What purpose would they serve? Likewise what purpose would teeth serve in hell? It's not logical. Jesus was saying, "Don't be a literalist!," to those who imagined they would be marrying and having sex in heaven. Don't think like that. Don't think literally, he was saying in essence to them.

The other example of a logical impossibility I gave was that existence of hell as a place. Where is it located? None of your answers can be reconciled with an infinite God of infinite Love. If hell is inside God, then God is in hell. If hell is outside God, then God is not infinite. There can be no "outside" of infinity. Infinity has no outsides, no boundaries. That is not logical.

So, firstly is experience, and secondly without experience to illuminate, logic. Hell as a literal place of torture, fits neither experience nor logic. Hell as a metaphor for suffering, fits both.

I hope this helps.
 
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