Theory....again

[Thief]

You CAUSE-AND-EFFECT has nothing to do with science. Your "spirit before substance" or "spirit first" is not science.

There is far more to CAUSE-AND-EFFECT than what you are claiming.

In science, you will have to show evidences to the CAUSE, as much as providing evidences for the EFFECT. And then you have to provide that link the between the CAUSE and the EFFECT.

Like you said you can't put the "beginning", on the petri dish.

Well, guess what, I'm sure as hell, you can't put this biblical deity on the petri dish.

So if you can't put this "god" or "spirit" on the proverbial petri dish, how do you expect us to accept hollow claim that your god or spirit is the CAUSE?

You contradicting yourself with this CAUSE-AND-EFFECT. If you can't present god in any way (like on this petri dish of yours) to being the CAUSE of the creation, of the universe, of the Earth and Sun, and of the creation of everything listed in Genesis 1, including human, then you are only kidding yourself with this spirit-first rubbish.

And this:



This clearly demonstrate that YOU don't understand what science mean.

IF you can't provide observation, evidence, testing, experiment and equation, then it isn't science. Have you figure that out yet. Science required empirical EVIDENCES or repeatable TESTS or EXPERIMENTS, to verify and to validate the THEORY. Without EVIDENCE, TEST or EXPERIMENT, then it isn't science.

Your academic is certainly not in the science. What are your qualifications?

This is the last thing I want to say in this thread. This thread is nothing more than bait to lure people, to listen you prattle on about "spirit first".

YOU have a basic problem.
Cause and effect cannot be separated.

That I can apply the principle in my faith is not MY problem.

The universe is the effect.
God is the cause.

 

[McBell]

YOU have a basic problem.
Cause and effect cannot be separated.

That I can apply the principle in my faith is not MY problem.

The universe is the effect.
God is the cause.

Except you do just that, separate cause and effect, for your god.
So you are actually not applying the principle at all.

 

[Thief]

Except you do just that, separate cause and effect, for your god.
So you are actually not applying the principle at all.

Your flat denial needs a lot of expansion.
Go for it.

 

[McBell]

Your flat denial needs a lot of expansion.
Go for it.

My denial?

I ask you for the SECOND time this thread:

What is it you claim I am denying?​

Why is it you refuse to address any points that reveals your snake oil for what it is?

And you whine about my alleged denial?
Your transference is most comical.

 

[Thief]

My denial?

I ask you for the SECOND time this thread:

What is it you claim I am denying?​

Why is it you refuse to address any points that reveals your snake oil for what it is?

And you whine about my alleged denial?
Your transference is most comical.

So go laugh.....

 

[Thief]

Back on track.....again.....

Theory.....

an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events

an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but not known or proven to be true

the general principles or ideas that relate to a particular subject.



And I still believe in God because of science.

Can't prove it.
No photo, no fingerprint, no equation, no experiment.

You just have to think about it.

 

[McBell]

So go laugh.....

No worries there.

Interesting how you avoid the content of the post.
Not surprising though.

 

[McBell]

Back on track.....again.....

:biglaugh:

You are the one who keeps going off on your hall of mirrors snake oil tangent...

 

[zenzero]

Friend Thief,

Theory....

rules and techniques: the body of rules, ideas, principles, and techniques that applies to a subject, especially when seen as distinct from actual practice.

speculation: abstract thought or contemplation.

idea formed by speculation: an idea of or belief about something arrived at through speculation or conjecture.

All this what MINDS makes one do and one ends up like you.... frustrated!
The real research is to get into the working of the mind itself from where the mind originates such theories, rules, regulations, this that etc.
Once you understanding your mind then it can never lead you to such a state as you know your mind. Now you are the master and te mind your slave.

Love & rgds

 

[Thief]

Friend Thief,



All this what MINDS makes one do and one ends up like you.... frustrated!
The real research is to get into the working of the mind itself from where the mind originates such theories, rules, regulations, this that etc.
Once you understanding your mind then it can never lead you to such a state as you know your mind. Now you are the master and te mind your slave.

Love & rgds

No frustration on my part.....doing just fine.

 

[zenzero]

Friend Thief,

No frustration on my part.....doing just fine.

Sorry if you took the response personally; always wish you well.
Was just trying to make a general statement that mind activities leads to frustration as it leads to further mind activities and so the goal of all paths/ways/religions are to find the state where the mind is free of thoughts and in that freedom of the mind is the individual's freedom/enlightenment.

Love & rgds

 

[Thief]

Friend Thief,


Sorry if you took the response personally; always wish you well.
Was just trying to make a general statement that mind activities leads to frustration as it leads to further mind activities and so the goal of all paths/ways/religions are to find the state where the mind is free of thoughts and in that freedom of the mind is the individual's freedom/enlightenment.

Love & rgds

I lean the other way.
We were made to BE thinking/feelings creatures...on the way to becoming
thinking/feeling spirit.

Kinda hard not to be personal.....when we were made to be persons.

Nothing personal.

 

[Ouroboros]

I lke that part about.....NOT absolute proof.

And the discussion forms solid AFTER theory is PROVEN.....then we are discussing FACT.

Theory is not the same as fact.

A theory is built upon facts, laws, reasoning, results, evidence, etc.

A theory is like a house.

A fact is like a wall or a door.

Reasoning is like the hallway.

Laws are like the hinges, door locks, nails.

They are different things, but the house can technically look different based on how it's built, it still has to be built based on the parts it consists of. The theory of evolution for instance is built upon facts, reasoning, laws, math, and many different results of experiments from many different fields of science. Parts of evolution theory are facts, like mutations, selections, fossil record, and much, much more. The theory of evolution as a whole explains why those facts exist in our world. So therefore, evolution as the observed phenomenon (not using the term "theory" there) is a fact, while the theory of evolution (using the term "theory" there) is a theory based on those facts. Evolution (in the double meaning of the word, the fact we observe and the theory that explains those facts) is both a fact and theory.

It's the same with the "theory of gravity". We observe gravity, that's a fact. We explain gravity with a theory of gravity, that's the theory. Gravity is hence both a fact and theory.

 

[Thief]

Theory is not the same as fact.

A theory is built upon facts, laws, reasoning, results, evidence, etc.

A theory is like a house.

A fact is like a wall or a door.

Reasoning is like the hallway.

Laws are like the hinges, door locks, nails.

They are different things, but the house can technically look different based on how it's built, it still has to be built based on the parts it consists of. The theory of evolution for instance is built upon facts, reasoning, laws, math, and many different results of experiments from many different fields of science. Parts of evolution theory are facts, like mutations, selections, fossil record, and much, much more. The theory of evolution as a whole explains why those facts exist in our world. So therefore, evolution as the observed phenomenon (not using the term "theory" there) is a fact, while the theory of evolution (using the term "theory" there) is a theory based on those facts. Evolution (in the double meaning of the word, the fact we observe and the theory that explains those facts) is both a fact and theory.

It's the same with the "theory of gravity". We observe gravity, that's a fact. We explain gravity with a theory of gravity, that's the theory. Gravity is hence both a fact and theory.

Haven't heard about the law of gravity?......apparently not.

No really.....check various sources of definition.

Observation is not a fact. It just causes people to think.
Having thought about the observation an explanation is assembled.....theory.
THEN the experimentation begins.
When the results are sure and repeatable.....we then have FACT.

Is gravity a fact?......try standing on the edge of a high place and make denial.
Gravity is real enough.
And denial is pointless.
The experiment can be done.
And the results will repeat.
Gravity is a fact.(but did you really need the experiment?)

Consider an item not so 'obvious'.

The theory of dark matter.

Scientist are fairly 'sure' it's there. Observation of this reality points the way.
But there is no proof.
For now, a proper experiment is pending.
So....observation without proof.....just an explanation.....THEORY!

Do the equations form proof?.....no.
Got a photo?.....no.
Got some dark stuff in a dish?.....no.

But the argument is there.
It's a theory.

 

[Ouroboros]

Haven't heard about the law of gravity?......apparently not.

No really.....check various sources of definition.

Newton's Theory of Gravity. Which was supplanted by Einstein's General Relativity Theory. Which needs to be replaced with some unified quantum theory for gravity.

Observation is not a fact. It just causes people to think.
Having thought about the observation an explanation is assembled.....theory.
THEN the experimentation begins.
When the results are sure and repeatable.....we then have FACT.

Sure. Repeated observations.

A theory is however not a fact. A fact is not a theory. But a theory contains facts. But the theory of blah is a theory. But blah, the observation, is a fact. So blah in both aspects is a theory and a fact.

Is gravity a fact?......try standing on the edge of a high place and make denial.

Uh.

Gravity is a fact. Did I say anything different? Try to jump over the cliff and deny it. Isn't it a fact to you?

Gravity is real enough.
And denial is pointless.
The experiment can be done.
And the results will repeat.
Gravity is a fact.(but did you really need the experiment?)

Did I say different?

The core of the discussion here is the difference and similarity between "theory", "fact", and "law". At least I thought that was the issue at hand.

Consider an item not so 'obvious'.

The theory of dark matter.

Scientist are fairly 'sure' it's there. Observation of this reality points the way.
But there is no proof.

Disagree.

The problem with dark matter was that the proof was discovered first but there's no explanation to the evidence besides a very vague term "dark matter". Dark matter is just a term to explain a discrepancy in gravitational forces in the universe. Also dark energy does the same thing.

The dark matter (or whatever the force is, which we don't know yet) was discovered when they measured the speed of star systems rotation the galaxy. The speed is inconsistent with Newton's theory of gravity. Some considered even Newton's theory to be a law, that gravity is universal, but dark matter and dark energy contradicts his theory. So the theory must be revised, and the "law" dropped.

For now, a proper experiment is pending.

It was the experiment to confirm universal and consistent gravitation that gave the discovery of dark matter. So no experiment is pending in that sense. The explanation, or theory is what's missing now. And that requires more testing.

So....observation without proof.....just an explanation.....THEORY!
[/quote
Uh?

No, that's not how "Scientific Theory" works. What you're defining there is theory as its used in everyday language, colloquially. A scientific theory is always based on observations, proofs, and evidence. It doesn't mean the theory is always right, but it's most definitely based on evidence.

Do the equations form proof?.....no.

Actually, the term "proof" is not used in science, but it's used in math. For instance, a inductive proof of infinite set of primes. That's a proof. I think it was Pascal who made that one.

Got a photo?.....no.
Got some dark stuff in a dish?.....no.

You don't need all that as evidence.

Do you have a photo of air? Oh. Then you're not breathing. :areyoucra

But the argument is there.
It's a theory.

Dark matter is just a term to explain something that we don't understand yet. It's not considered a "theory" by itself either. The observation of "dark matter" will be used as a factual foundation for a larger and more encompassing theory of universal gravity. That's where the "theory" will come in.

You're still equivocating colloquial use of theory and how science is using the term. You need to put your mind to learning the difference, because you're only confusing yourself.

 

[Thief]

A theory is however not a fact. A fact is not a theory. But a theory contains facts.

Looks like you got lost in the word play.

Theory might contain facts.
And those facts might support the theory.

And for someone to respect the theory some factual items would help.

But until the theory has been proven......it's just an explanation.

 

[Ouroboros]

Looks like you got lost in the word play.

Can you fix your quotes? Looks like you got lost in your quoting.

 

[Thief]

Can you fix your quotes? Looks like you got lost in your quoting.

Yeah that did look a little odd.....so I have made an edit.

So...maybe you could check for definition on the web like I did.

Theory as an explanation.
Not as fact.

 

[idav]

But until the theory has been proven......it's just an explanation.

There is no proving it, just the gaining of more facts surrounding the idea. Knowledge is an endless pursuit.

 

[Thief]

There is no proving it, just the gaining of more facts surrounding the idea. Knowledge is an endless pursuit.

So ALL things are held as theory?......no, can't buy that.

True that knowledge is an endless pursuit.
This world and the next.