Theosis, Salvation, and Jesus

[Spartan]

He's just not on the Jewish radar at all and especially given that we believe the gospels are unreliable mostly pious fiction at best, it's fair to say we don't even have enough information to work with, so it is not even that we can simply call him a false prophet because we don't know if he made any prophecies.

The Gospels are mostly pious fiction? Try busting the resurrection of Jesus. There's not a one of you skeptics who have ever falsified it.

As for Judaism, I respect it but a lot of Jews didn't. They killed their own prophets, rebelled against God, and kicked their Messiah Jesus to the curb.

 

[Rival]

The Gospels are mostly pious fiction? Try busting the resurrection of Jesus. There's not a one of you skeptics who have ever falsified it.

As for Judaism, I respect it but a lot of Jews didn't. They killed their own prophets, rebelled against God, and kicked their Messiah Jesus to the curb.

Actually it's on you to prove it happened. We've been through this. We've also been through the fact that even if it happened, it wouldn't make him the messiah; it wouldn't even make him a prophet.

 

[danieldemol]

Ok it's a shame that you feel attacked by such a instructive and well intended scripture, and nothing is obvious in the scriptures, you should know that. But let's address the contradiction here. Faith in God has everything to do with acquisition of virtues. Where do virtues originate? Virtues don't come from man. They are gifts from Him who created them to man. Just as arms and legs are gifts to us to perform functions that give us joy, the same is with virtues.

God bestows such blessings as limbs and virtues upon believer and non-believer alike.

If you have no faith what is the point of obtaining virtue?

Simple, the virtues enable the harmonious function of the human collective, and what is good for the survival of the group is good for the survival of the individual that comprises that group

Having faith in God is acknowledging that we cant do it on our own, in the end He will be the one to save us.

You speak for yourself here, that is not what having faith in God means to me.
To me having faith in God simply means believing God exists.

He is the founder of our virtues and we need to believe and acknowledge that, otherwise we are lost.

I disagree, in my beliefs we are only lost if we eschew virtues. I don’t believe God is so petty as to judge people for not believing in God, especially since faith is a gift God gives to whoever God wills. Imagine if I decided not to give you a present then threatened to toss you in the fire for not having that present.

The ancients who wrote the scriptures ascribed madness to God and didn’t even realise they were doing it.

 

[Muffled]

I do not believe humans can do anything to bring forth the kingdom. This will be something God will do on his own schedule without human help.

I believe there are two concepts of the kingdom. The concept of being subjects of the king I will call the kingdom and the Physical rule of Jesus I will call the Kingdom.

The kingdom of God was already in existence when Pentecost came and continues to this day. I am in the kingdom of God.

The Kingdom is to come as we pray and will only be here when Jesus returns physically.

 

[Muffled]

I would say that humanity cannot do it on its own and God cannot do it on his own. We are co-authors in the story and the story is incomplete.

I will grant you that.a kingdom requires a king and subjects of the king.

 

[Muffled]

If we reject the intellect and rationality in our attempt to achieve Theosis, what tool/s do you propose we use?

I believe prayer works. I will grant that one needs a rationale to pray but the actual prayer doe not require intellect just willingness.

 

[Spartan]

Actually it's on you to prove it happened. We've been through this. We've also been through the fact that even if it happened, it wouldn't make him the messiah; it wouldn't even make him a prophet.

Nonsense.

Evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection


Evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection – Part 1: Why it Matters

https://crossexamined.org/evidence-jesus-resurrection-part-1-matters/


Evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection – Part 2: How to do History

The Evidence For Jesus' Resurrection, Part 2: How To Do History


Evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection – Part 3: Fact (1) Jesus died by Crucifixion

https://crossexamined.org/the-evide...tion-part-3-fact-1-jesus-died-by-crucifixion/


Evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection – Part 4: Fact (2) The Empty Tomb

The Evidence For Jesus' Resurrection, Part 4: Fact (2) The Empty Tomb


Evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection – Part 5: Fact (3) The Postmortem Appearances to the Disciples

https://crossexamined.org/the-evide...-the-postmortem-appearances-to-the-disciples/


Evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection – Part 6: Facts (4) and (5) The Postmortem Appearances to Paul and James

https://crossexamined.org/the-evide...the-postmortem-appearances-to-paul-and-james/


Evidence for Jesus’ Resurrection – Part 7: Reasoning to the Resurrection

https://crossexamined.org/the-evidence-for-jesus-resurrection-part-7-reasoning-to-the-resurrection/


Evidence for Jesus Resurrection – Part 8: Some Unanswered Questions

https://crossexamined.org/the-evidence-for-jesus-resurrection-part-8-some-unanswered-questions/

 

[PearlSeeker]

I'm sorry, but Jesus has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism. He just happened to be a Jew.

We know he was a Jew and he was also preaching in public. He was known to enough people to make it in history and he was part of Jewish religion then. Gospels were written later... What makes you think that Jesus of the Gospels would be a false prophet?

 

[Rival]

We know he was a Jew and he was also preaching in public. He was known to enough people to make it in history and he was part of Jewish religion then. Gospels were written later... What makes you think that Jesus of the Gospels would be a false prophet?

Part of Jewish religion? Not quite. He was part of one little group's take on the religion. Jesus has never been part of mainstream Judaism.

Because his prophecies never came true and according to Jewish understanding he was a false messiah.

 

[Spartan]

. Jesus has never been part of mainstream Judaism.

Judaism has a long and sordid history of rebelling against God and killing their own prophets. Why should we think they'd treat their Messiah any different?

Because his prophecies never came true and according to Jewish understanding he was a false messiah.

That's horse manure. It ignores the 2nd Coming when the remainder of the Messianic prophecies are expected to be fulfilled.

 

[Rival]

Judaism has a long and sordid history of rebelling against God and killing their own prophets. Why should we think they'd treat their Messiah any different?

Blah blah...

That's horse manure. It ignores the 2nd Coming when the remainder of the Messianic prophecies are expected to be fulfilled.

You mean the second-coming Christian theology invented to make up for the fact that even they realise Jesus fulfilled none of the messianic prophecies?

You know it could just be that he's not the messiah.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Part of Jewish religion? Not quite. He was part of one little group's take on the religion. Jesus has never been part of mainstream Judaism.

Because his prophecies never came true and according to Jewish understanding he was a false messiah.

Marginal part is still a part. There was no mainstream at the time anyway. There were different groups.

Prophecies are vague about Messiah. It's hard to draw any certain conclusions. Some even expected more than one Messiah...

 

[Rival]

Marginal part is still a part. There was no mainstream at the time anyway. There were different groups.

Prophecies are vague about Messiah. It's hard to draw any certain conclusions. Some even expected more than one Messiah...

Actually we know what we're looking for according to Orthodox Judaism; it's very clear. We've known for a long-time, hence why Jesus wasn't accepted and eventually Christianity became a non-Jewish religion. There have been plenty of false messiahs and they've all been rejected on the same grounds: that they didn't do what the prophecies say he should.

Here they are,

Spoiler

2 Shmuel 7:10-13
And I will appoint a place for My people, for Israel, and I will plant them, and they will dwell in their own place, and be disturbed no more; and the wicked people shall not continue to afflict them as formerly.
And even from the day that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. And the Lord has told you that the Lord will make for you a house.
When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

This has not happened. Wicked people have been murdering Jewish people all throughout history. The Temple is not built. There is no King.

Yeshayahu 2-4

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and all the nations shall stream to it.
And many peoples shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount, to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war and the Temple has not been re-established.

Yeshayahu 11-12-13

And He shall raise a banner to the nations, and He shall gather the lost of Israel, and the scattered ones of Judah He shall gather from the four corners of the earth.
And the envy of Ephraim shall cease, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, nor shall Judah vex Ephraim.

The lost tribes have not been gathered back to Israel.

Yeshahyahu 27-12-13

And it shall come to pass on that day, that the Lord shall gather from the flood of the river to the stream of Egypt, and you shall be gathered one by one, O children of Israel.
And it shall come to pass on that day, that a great shofar shall be sounded, and those lost in the land of Assyria and those exiled in the land of Egypt shall come and they shall prostrate themselves before the Lord on the holy mount in Jerusalem.

Not happened yet.

Yirmiyahu 31:33

And no longer shall one teach his neighbour or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember.

Nothing about needing a middle-man and we don't live in an age where everyone knows G-d is G-d.

Yechezkel 37:26-28

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever.

Temple still not built and the Nations don't all recognise G-d as G-d.

Micah 4:1-3

And it shall be at the end of the days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be firmly established at the top of the mountains, and it shall be raised above the hills, and peoples shall stream upon it.
And many nations shall go, and they shall say, "Come, let us go up to the Lord's mount and to the house of the God of Jacob, and let Him teach us of His ways, and we will go in His paths," for out of Zion shall the Torah come forth, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge between many peoples and reprove mighty nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift the sword against nation; neither shall they learn war anymore.

People still go to war. L-rd's House not established.

Tzefanaiah 3:9-13

For then I will convert the peoples to a pure language that all of them call in the name of the Lord, to worship Him of one accord.
From the other side of the rivers of Cush, My supplicants, the community of My scattered ones-they shall bring Me an offering.
On that day you shall not be ashamed of all your deeds [with] which you rebelled against Me, for then I will remove from your midst those who rejoice in your pride, and you shall no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mount.
And I will leave over in your midst a humble and poor people, and they shall take shelter in the name of the Lord.
The remnant of Israel shall neither commit injustice nor speak lies; neither shall deceitful speech be found in their mouth, for they shall graze and lie down, with no one to cause them to shudder.

This hasn't happened either. None of it.

Zach 14:9-11

And the Lord shall become King over all the earth; on that day shall the Lord be one, and His name one.
The whole earth shall be changed to be like a plain, from the hill of Rimmon in the south of Jerusalem; but it [Jerusalem] will be elevated high and remain in its old place; from the gate of Benjamin to the place of the first gate, until the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananel until the king's wine-cellars.
And they shall dwell therein, and there shall be no more destruction; but Jerusalem shall dwell in safety.

Jerusalem is hardly dwelling in safety and polytheism is still a thing.

Again, no, he wasn't part of Judaism. Some Jews incorporated him into their faith; that's not quite the same.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Actually we know what we're looking for according to Orthodox Judaism; it's very clear.

Maybe OJ decided what to look for but what about other groups and divergent picture in the very prophecies?

Spoiler: examples

So the question is, does this king who reigns over all the earth come gently, riding on a donkey in peace, or in great wrath, ready to do battle? Is Zechariah contradicting himself? This is a big puzzle for Jewish scholars as well. But this is not the only place in the Scriptures where we find seemingly divergent pictures of Messiah. For example, Micah 5 tells us he is born in Bethlehem, the city of David. But in Daniel 7, the prophet tells us he will arrive riding on the clouds of heaven. Is the Messiah going to be cut off (killed), as predicted in Daniel 9, or will he come in regal splendor and reign forever, as Isaiah 9 tells us? Is he the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 or a royal king portrayed in Psalm 2?

In response to these two seemingly opposite pictures of Messiah, some rabbis decided that there must be two messiahs, the Messiah ben Joseph, who would come and suffer, and the Messiah ben David, who would come as a conquering king.

Another Jewish tradition explains the two contrasting portraits of Messiah like this: “If the people of Israel will be righteous, the Messiah will come in the clouds of Heaven. If they will not be righteous, he will come as a poor man riding upon an ***” (Sanhedrin 98a).

The Returning King: The “Two Messiahs” in Zechariah • Jews for Jesus

Again, no, he wasn't part of Judaism. Some Jews incorporated him into their faith; that's not quite the same.

We know Christianity separated from Judaism after some time. But why are you so sure about Jesus?

 

[Rival]

Maybe OJ decided what to look for but what about other groups and divergent picture in the very prophecies?

I'm not bothered about what those other groups think. The standard Jewish consensus is that Jesus was not the messiah. Some outlier group might have other ideas, but so what?

We know Christianity separated from Judaism after some time. But why are you so sure about Jesus?

You're having a hard time grasping this, for some reason.

Jesus, the Christian Scriptures, are nothing to do with Judaism. They just happened to be written by Jews. The Jewish religion does not have, and never has had, Jesus. It does not have, and never has had, the gospels or any part of the Christian scriptures. A certain small group of Jews believed Jesus to be the messiah. That means that's what they believed, not what's part of normative Judaism. Nowhere, now or then, will you find any mention of Jesus or the Christian scriptures within Jewish teaching and doctrine.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I'm not bothered about what those other groups think. The standard Jewish consensus is that Jesus was not the messiah. Some outlier group might, but so what?

What about different Messiahs in prophecies themselves? (Have you read my spoiler?)

A certain small group of Jews believed Jesus to be the messiah. That means that's what they believed, not what's part of normative Judaism. Nowhere, now or then, will you find any mention of Jesus or the Christian scriptures within Jewish teaching and doctrine.

I didn't mean the NT scriptures. I meant Jesus himself. He was not a pagan or something. He was following Jewish religion. Also his early desciples.

 

[Spartan]

Blah blah...


You mean the second-coming Christian theology invented to make up for the fact that even they realise Jesus fulfilled none of the messianic prophecies?

You know it could just be that he's not the messiah.

You need a whole lot of help with your stunted theology.

And you STILL can't bust the resurrection of Jesus.

 

[Rival]

What about different Messiahs in prophecies themselves? (Have you read my spoiler?)

It's not debated in Judaism that there are many messiahs; what is not the case is there being more than one of the Messiah. The Messiah King who will bring the Messianic Age.

I don't really consider JFJ a reliable source.

I didn't mean the NT scriptures. I meant Jesus himself. He was not a pagan or something. He was following Jewish religion. Also his early desciples.

If you're trying to say Jesus was a Jew who (as far as we know) practiced Judaism, then yes; but that doesn't make him part of the religion anymore than Shabtai Tzvi or Bar Kochba. It just makes him a, somewhat unfortunate, part of Jewish history.

 

[Rival]

You need a whole lot of help with your stunted theology.

And you STILL can't bust the resurrection of Jesus.

Your broken record shtick is becoming kind of old.

 

[PearlSeeker]

It's not debated in Judaism that there are many messiahs; what is not the case is there being more than one of the Messiah. The Messiah King who will bring the Messianic Age.

In the time of Jesus there were expectations with up to three different Messiahs - a priestly figure, a kingly figure and a prophetic figure...

What about prophecy about Messiah being "despised" (Isaiah 1:4) and "cut off" (Daniel 9:26)?