There are no mistakes in Quran

[morphesium]

Yes very simple, bring glass of water, fill it to the middle with fresh water, then add salt water to its full,
now according to the experiment, the fresh water will float and the salt water will sink.

Try it and see if you can suck fresh water from the top.

Actually do this way- take some salt water, preferably add some color. Then gently pour fresh water along the sides or with the help of a spoon. The salt water will stay at the bottom and the fresh water on top.

Some restaurant people make use of this principle to serve layered drinks. It will look like one layer of liquid is stacked on top of another.

 

[FearGod]

It's not actually a lake, more a lagoon. The 'labuan' in Danau Labuan Cermin means harbour (pelabuhan) in Indonesian and only ever refers to coastal settlements.

Seems to be a freshwater lake that gets regular but limited infusions of saltwater from the sea.

The 'cermin' (mirror) tells you that it is very still water, basically the perfect conditions for limited mixing between the 2 types of water, which while creating clear stratification nonetheless, as you know, it still contains mixing.

Obviously, it also hardly counts as "a sea".

Where did the fresh water come from?
Didn't both move and meet while not mixing?

He let forth the two seas that meet together, (19)between them a barrier they do not overpass. (20)O which of your Lord's bounties will you and you deny?(21)From them come forth the pearl and the coral.(22)O which of your Lord's bounties will you and you deny?

From them come the pearl and coral? Coral definitely exists in the seas around the region, but coral only exists in saltwater.

Freshwater pearls don't come from still lakes/lagoons either. So 'from them come corals and pearls' is not accurate.

Again, your 'clear sign' really doesn't stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever. The barrier is constantly 'overpassed' and it is false to claim that coral and pearls come from 'them'.

Not correct, pearl needs the coral reefs, that what surprised me.

Many cultured pearl farms are located in areas of the Pacific that boast the greatest marine biodiversity on the planet. These are also areas that are affected by coral reef degradation. Coral reefs play an important role in the life cycle of pearl oysters: they are substrates for reproduction,

http://www.sustainablepearls.org/pearl-farming/ecology/coral-reefs/

 

[FearGod]

We can make use of varying density of water (water with more salt would be more denser)/ temperature to make water in different layers. Even you can do that at home provided you do that carefully. They will eventually mix as time passes or if you simply stir with a spoon.

You can also do this with cold and hot water. Pour some cold water at 4 degree Celsius (water has the highest density at 4 degree Celsius) into a glass and then pour some hot water at 40 or 60 degree Celsius very gently on top of that with a help of a spoon. You can drink either cold water or hot water r (may be each with a different flavour) depending on where you place the straw.

They will mix eventually.

Edited to add:-

So when the bodies of water are large enough, (with different densities) and flowing without much turbulence, then these water bodies will keep their identity covering a vast area (and for a long time) before they finally and gradually mix.

Sinking depends on the properties of the substances than their densities.

For example oil is more dense than Alcohol, but Alcohol won't float but will dissolve.

Salt will always dissolve in water, regardless if it was a pure salt or salty water into freshwater, it'll make no differences.

 

[Augustus]

Where did the fresh water come from?
Didn't both move and meet while not mixing?

Kalimantan is rainforest (well was until they cut most of it down ) There is plenty of fresh water coming from the sky to run into lakes.

Once again they do mix but only to a limited extent as there is not enough motion to do so thoroughly. Remember the lake constantly readjusts itself so the denser saltwater is always sinking. Also the water on the top still contains salt, just at a much lower concentration.

This place just has the right balance between inputs of salt and fresh water, and is still enough to allow them to remain relatively separate.

Do you accept that there must be sufficient mixing before 2 different liquids fully combine?

Put some honey in a cup and fill it up with hot tea. Stir it vigorously and drink it quickly, it is about the same sweetness top to bottom. Now do the same but stir it only a very little then leave it for 20 minutes, it is much sweeter at the bottom than at the top.

James Bond likes his martinis 'shaken, not stirred' because if you only stir it the flavour is not right due to the different alcohols not properly mixing.

If you can understand these points, you can understand what is happening in the lake.

Not correct, pearl needs the coral reefs, that what surprised me.

You missed my point.

I was saying that neither coral nor pearls exist in the freshwater part. Freshwater pearls (not saltwater) require fast running water. The verse says 'from them both', not 'from one of them'.

Again, the verse is not incorrect unless we use your example. You are making the verse factually incorrect by insisting on this interpretation (which is just an innovation anyway).

 

[Shad]

I would also point out that Aristotle wrote about fresh and salt waters centuries before Islam in far more detail. The Quran at best is paraphrasing what was already developed.

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html

 

[Shad]

It's not actually a lake, more a lagoon. The 'labuan' in Danau Labuan Cermin means harbour (pelabuhan) in Indonesian and only ever refers to coastal settlements.

My point was to bring something more credible that a brochure making arguments from incredibility. If you look at the post I linked from 2013 you can see this mystery is not mysterious at all. Some travel agency's argument from incredibility is not a source nor a view of an expert. Someone non-expert has no clue but is some how evidence of the verse rather than evidence of said person's ignorance.

 

[FearGod]

I would also point out that Aristotle wrote about fresh and salt waters centuries before Islam in far more detail. The Quran at best is paraphrasing what was already developed.

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html

What did he say? that both bodies of water meet and don't mix and why the quran needed to mention it
while the scholars themselves didn't know what the verse means.

Do you think the prophet kept it as a secret so we can see it today?

 

[morphesium]

Sinking depends on the properties of the substances than their densities.

For example oil is more dense than Alcohol, but Alcohol won't float but will dissolve.

Salt will always dissolve in water, regardless if it was a pure salt or salty water into freshwater, it'll make no differences.

I never said salt water will never mix with fresh water.

please watch these two videos

Why is it so hard for you to understand this?

 

[FearGod]

Kalimantan is rainforest (well was until they cut most of it down ) There is plenty of fresh water coming from the sky to run into lakes.

Once again they do mix but only to a limited extent as there is not enough motion to do so thoroughly. Remember the lake constantly readjusts itself so the denser saltwater is always sinking. Also the water on the top still contains salt, just at a much lower concentration.

This place just has the right balance between inputs of salt and fresh water, and is still enough to allow them to remain relatively separate.

Do you accept that there must be sufficient mixing before 2 different liquids fully combine?

According to this logic then eventually all seas should be freshwater floating at top and salty water sink to bottom, which isn't the case.

Put some honey in a cup and fill it up with hot tea. Stir it vigorously and drink it quickly, it is about the same sweetness top to bottom. Now do the same but stir it only a very little then leave it for 20 minutes, it is much sweeter at the bottom than at the top.

James Bond likes his martinis 'shaken, not stirred' because if you only stir it the flavour is not right due to the different alcohols not properly mixing.

If you can understand these points, you can understand what is happening in the lake.

Irrelevant to the salty water as salt is already dissolved, no need to stir for mixing water with water.

You missed my point.

I was saying that neither coral nor pearls exist in the freshwater part. Freshwater pearls (not saltwater) require fast running water. The verse says 'from them both', not 'from one of them'.

Again, the verse is not incorrect unless we use your example. You are making the verse factually incorrect by insisting on this interpretation (which is just an innovation anyway).

The verse is 100% correct, the meeting of both seas consist of 2 layers,fresh at top and salty at the bottom,
also corals need specific environment, so salinity will affect its survival, it doesn't bear less saline or more saline.
also the next verse (55:24) is misinterpreted by the scholars by interpreting الجوار as ships whereas it means
maids and المنشئات which means constructed on their places (don't move) and كالاعلام means look similar to flags.
such description is understood to be speaking about the fan worms, in one other verse it was described as
the brooms and the retractors.(81:15-16)

 

[Augustus]

According to this logic then eventually all seas should be freshwater floating at top and salty water sink to bottom, which isn't the case.

No, seas have currents, waves, etc. this mixes the water. A lake called 'mirror lake' is very different to the sea as the water is very, very still. All estuaries have fresh and salt water but they tend mix more due to the motion of the water.

The ratio of salt to fresh water is also vastly different - instead of a balance you have 99.9%+ saltwater in the sea.

You are missing the most pertinent points.

Irrelevant to the salty water as salt is already dissolved, no need to stir for mixing water with water.

Yes there is. It isn't that difficult a point to grasp surely - you have seen visual evidence to support it after all.

The verse is 100% correct, the meeting of both seas consist of 2 layers,fresh at top and salty at the bottom,

There are not 2 seas.

There is sea water getting into a freshwater lake.

also corals need specific environment,

Yes, saltwater. So 'both' do not provide coral and pearls. Only 1 of them potentially does. The verse says 'both'.

 

[FearGod]

No, seas have currents, waves, etc. this mixes the water. A lake called 'mirror lake' is very different to the sea as the water is very, very still. All estuaries have fresh and salt water but they tend mix more due to the motion of the water.

The ratio of salt to fresh water is also vastly different - instead of a balance you have 99.9%+ saltwater in the sea.

You are missing the most pertinent points.

For people living before 1500 years they won't think about it as a mysterious natural state exactly the same as you do now,
but for people living today they'll be very surprised that a sea consisting of freshwater and saltwater
while not mixing, at least our friend Shad doesn't trust the source.

Yes there is. It isn't that difficult a point to grasp surely - you have seen visual evidence to support it after all.

I don't need an experiment to prove to me that salt doesn't dissolve in water, because it's wrong

There are not 2 seas.

There is sea water getting into a freshwater lake.

Yes, 2 bodies of water, the salt water is coming from a huge sea and still the water divided
into 2 layers, no mystery.

Yes, saltwater. So 'both' do not provide coral and pearls. Only 1 of them potentially does. The verse says 'both'.

Yes of course from both, they have the same one land,

 

[FearGod]

I never said salt water will never mix with fresh water.

please watch these two videos

Why is it so hard for you to understand this?

Because it's irrelevant to the fact that salt dissolves in water.

 

[morphesium]

Because it's irrelevant to the fact that salt dissolves in water.

"Stubborn and ardent clinging to one's opinion is the best proof of stupidity "-Michel de Montaigne​

It seems that you are purposefully disagreeing with the real reasons that cause a natural phenomenon in order to agree with the Koran. In doing so you are proving that you are not truthful to yourself.

 

[FearGod]

"Stubborn and ardent clinging to one's opinion is the best proof of stupidity "-Michel de Montaigne​

It seems that you are purposefully disagreeing with the real reasons that cause a natural phenomenon in order to agree with the Koran. In doing so you are proving that you are not truthful to yourself.

You're the one going against science to refute the quran.

It's a fact that pouring freshwater to saltwater will make a one body of homogeneous water which
is less salty than the origin.

Do it yourself and taste the water, put spoon similar in making B-52 to prevent it from mixing.

 

[Shad]

What did he say? that both bodies of water meet and don't mix and why the quran needed to mention it

You can read it for yourself

while the scholars themselves didn't know what the verse means.

This doesn't make your interpretation correct.

Do you think the prophet kept it as a secret so we can see it today?

I think your "prophet" repeated a lot of ideas that were around at the time in a context of Arabia which Arabs could relate to.

 

[Shad]

For people living before 1500 years they won't think about it as a mysterious natural state exactly the same as you do now,
but for people living today they'll be very surprised that a sea consisting of freshwater and saltwater
while not mixing, at least our friend Shad doesn't trust the source.

All you have done is show that people are ignorant and that the Quran is repeating a point of view from the ignorant. There is no myterious state as you tried this argument before and I linked you the direct refutation to this "mysterious" nonsense.

I do not trust a brochure which you seem to be unable to understand. A brochure which made claims which have been refuted already. You have low standards but expect everyone else to share your low standards.

Yes, 2 bodies of water, the salt water is coming from a huge sea and still the water divided
into to 2 layers, no mystery.

Yet you still claim it was a mystery before someone explained it too you. You changed your tune due to education. These layers do not prevent mixing but are mixing points.[/quote]

 

[FearGod]

All you have done is show that people are ignorant and that the Quran is repeating a point of view from the ignorant. There is no myterious state as you tried this argument before and I linked you the direct refutation to this "mysterious" nonsense.

I do not trust a brochure which you seem to be unable to understand. A brochure which made claims which have been refuted already. You have low standards but expect everyone else to share your low standards.

Said the disbeliever.

 

[Shad]

Said the disbeliever.

Empty statement based on your presupposition and dismissed as such. It is your problem you think a travel brochure is scientific. You still have low standards.

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Where did the quran say kill the Christians?

(Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor forbid what God and His Messenger, nor condemn the religion of truth from those who were given the book until they pay tribute out of hand and they are submissive (29)

Of those who were given the book
Which means Jews and Christians

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I am an expat working in a country in Africa under sheria rule and I am a typical christian not maybe by the faith but appearance and name . Nobody has ever terrorized me here.

Is the system of government, secular or Islamist ??