There are no mistakes in Quran

[FearGod]

You are changing verses. First off we were talking about 25:53 now its 55:22. However since key data is missing from 25:53 you can not use both verses to mean the same body of water. Now lets see you provide evidence your lake has coral and produces pearl. Meet your own challenge.

I did it before and found out that such areas indeed contains coral and pearl, you can search and find it yourself.

Your source is a travel brochure and is dismissed as an argument from authority. Support your claim with something of worth.

But i believe the lake does exist, it's in Indonesia and it opens into the Celebes sea and it has 2 layers of water.

You are still cherry picking but not supporting your claims with any evidence from a credible source. Again meet your own challenge.

I believe the sources but you don't.

 

[Augustus]

Can we make the same in the lab? to let fresh water representing the river to flow into a saline water representing
the ocean and to see how they won't mix.

Yes. Of course you can replicate it. It is basic chemistry

Is this enough for you? You can also see how easily they mix

 

[FearGod]

Yes. Of course you can replicate it. It is basic chemistry

Is this enough for you? You can also see how easily they mix

Yes very simple, bring glass of water, fill it to the middle with fresh water, then add salt water to its full,
now according to the experiment, the fresh water will float and the salt water will sink.

Try it and see if you can suck fresh water from the top.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Yes very simple, bring glass of water, fill it to the middle with fresh water, then add salt water to its full,
now according to the experiment, the fresh water will float and the salt water will sink.

Try it and see if you can suck fresh water from the top.

It will mix. It will simply be a slightly less salt water. Especially if we stir it. There is salt in almost every soda. Soda is made with fresh water and not salt water. Every river in the world flows into the ocean. And when they do the fresh water mixes with the salt.

 

[FearGod]

It will mix. It will simply be a slightly less salt water. Especially if we stir it. There is salt in almost every soda. Soda is made with fresh water and not salt water. Every river in the world flows into the ocean. And when they do the fresh water mixes with the salt.

Yes i know it'll immediately mix and fresh water will never float at the top.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Yes i know it'll immediately mix and fresh water will never float at the top.

I sense sarcasm from you. But where in the Qur'an does it say it won't mix but I mean really it will you just have to give it some time. What I mean is that it won't do it immediately. It only counts if its done at light speed.

Where is the line?

 

[Augustus]

Yes very simple, bring glass of water, fill it to the middle with fresh water, then add salt water to its full,
now according to the experiment, the fresh water will float and the salt water will sink.

Try it and see if you can suck fresh water from the top.

Did you even watch the video? You have very clear visual evidence that even a 5 year old child could understand. If you won't believe that then you are just ignorant of reality.

Mixing is a process that requires time and motion in the liquids. This is why people stir drinks that contain more than 1 liquid. You did see what happened when the nice man in the video stirred the water didn't you? You also saw that mixing was much less when he didn't stir the liquids (although there is still a clear 'mixed' green line between the blue and yellow)

Or maybe the kuffar scientists invented some lies about how lighter substances float on heavier substances. They then tricked the kuffar into believing that such a phenomenon could be observed regularly in nature, used in industrial processes, etc. The videos and scientific explanations behind this process are all a giant lie to trick people into believing that a verse in an Arabian holy book isn't referring to an interesting aquatic phenomenon in Indonesia.

So we have 2 options:

1) Countless scientists lie and make deliberately false claims about how liquids of different densities interact just to refute some guy on the internet who thinks that a Quranic verse refers to an Indonesian lagoon

2) You have misunderstood the verse. The verse in the Quran doesn't refer to an Indonesian lagoon because it is not referring to the miraculous non-mixing of fresh and salt water. It is referring to either 2 specific 'seas' or perhaps even simply to saltwater and freshwater in general, both of which could be seen as a bounty from God for their different uses.


As you quote: "Stubborn and ardent clinging to one's opinion is the best proof of stupidity."

You are once again displaying 'stubborn and ardent clinging'. It's not even that the Quran is 'wrong' so you have to defend it, it's simply you who are wrong. There is nothing 'wrong' with that verse unless you use your silly interpretation, which ironically makes it incorrect.

 

[FearGod]

Did you even watch the video? You have very clear visual evidence that even a 5 year old child could understand. If you won't believe that then you are just ignorant of reality.

Mixing is a process that requires time and motion in the liquids. This is why people stir drinks that contain more than 1 liquid. You did see what happened when the nice man in the video stirred the water didn't you? You also saw that mixing was much less when he didn't stir the liquids (although there is still a clear 'mixed' green line between the blue and yellow)

Or maybe the kuffar scientists invented some lies about how lighter substances float on heavier substances. They then tricked the kuffar into believing that such a phenomenon could be observed regularly in nature, used in industrial processes, etc. The videos and scientific explanations behind this process are all a giant lie to trick people into believing that a verse in an Arabian holy book isn't referring to an interesting aquatic phenomenon in Indonesia.

So we have 2 options:

1) Countless scientists lie and make deliberately false claims about how liquids of different densities interact just to refute some guy on the internet who thinks that a Quranic verse refers to an Indonesian lagoon

2) You have misunderstood the verse. The verse in the Quran doesn't refer to an Indonesian lagoon because it is not referring to the miraculous non-mixing of fresh and salt water. It is referring to either 2 specific 'seas' or perhaps even simply to saltwater and freshwater in general, both of which could be seen as a bounty from God for their different uses.


As you quote: "Stubborn and ardent clinging to one's opinion is the best proof of stupidity."

You are once again displaying 'stubborn and ardent clinging'. It's not even that the Quran is 'wrong' so you have to defend it, it's simply you who are wrong. There is nothing 'wrong' with that verse unless you use your silly interpretation, which ironically makes it incorrect.

No, you were simply fooled with such kind of experiment,use your mind than believing stupid things.

Also water in the ocean and the freshwater from rivers pouring into the ocean aren't constant and
actually they say both will eventually mix, but the question is when, how many thousands of years
for both bodies to be mixed.

water is a polar molecule, exactly as salt dissolve in water, saltwater will dissolve in water, nothing changed,
it isn't like in oil, which is a nonpolar molecule and hence won't dissolve in water and even salt won't dissolve
in oil.

It's as stupid as Dawkins excuses, but Dawkins says they mixed according to science, but the quran was wrong by saying that 2 seas have a separation line that can't fail.

 

[Augustus]

No, you were simply fooled with such kind of experiment,use your mind than believing stupid things.

You do realise that the video wasn't made to refute your silly interpretation and was made to demonstrate a very simple point about liquids and water stratification don't you? Are you genuinely claiming that a basic scientific principle was created hundreds of years ago just to be able to refute a foolish innovation in interpretation of a religious verse?

This is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard anyone try to claim. You are literally claiming that there is an enormous scientific conspiracy that has been going on for centuries and exists only to refute your ludicrous fantasies about a misinterpretation of scripture.

A small child can understand this point, it is the sort of thing you could do as a science experiment at primary school. Is primary school level science too complicated for you?

You are obviously not an uneducated idiot, stop acting like you are. Either very basic and universal scientific principles are wrong, or you are wrong in your interpretation of a vague piece of scripture. Only an arrogant fool could believe that they are the one who is right.




Water stratification occurs when water masses with different properties - salinity (halocline), oxygenation (chemocline), density (pycnocline), temperature (thermocline) - form layers that act as barriers to water mixing which could lead to anoxia or euxinia.[1] These layers are normally arranged according to density, with the least dense water masses sitting above the more dense layers.

Water stratification also creates barriers to nutrient mixing between layers. This can affect the primary production in an area by limiting photosynthetic processes. When nutrients from the benthos cannot travel up into the photic zone, phytoplankton may be limited by nutrient availability. Lower primary production also leads to lower net productivity in waters.[2]


A large-scale circulation of horizontally stratified water masses, called the thermohaline circulation, occurs in the ocean. The entire circulation pattern takes about 2000 years[citation needed].
Complicating Factors[edit]
Stratification may be upset by turbulence. This creates mixed layers of water. Forms of turbulence may include wind-sea surface friction, upwelling and downwelling.

Marshall et Al. (2002) suggest that baroclinic eddies (baroclinity) may be an important factor in maintaining stratification.[3]

 

[Smart_Guy]

I will like the thread to tick some members off

 

[FearGod]

You do realise that the video wasn't made to refute your silly interpretation and was made to demonstrate a very simple point about liquids and water stratification don't you? Are you genuinely claiming that a basic scientific principle was created hundreds of years ago just to be able to refute a foolish innovation in interpretation of a religious verse?

Lol, Dawkins says that freshwater and saltwater dissolve according to science, but the stupid experiment which you posted
say that they don't mix due to the differences in their densities.

This is one of the most stupid things I have ever heard anyone try to claim. You are literally claiming that there is an enormous scientific conspiracy that has been going on for centuries and exists only to refute your ludicrous fantasies about a misinterpretation of scripture.

You're claiming that i said so, it's only a stupid guess done by you or even more to a lie than a guess.

A small child can understand this point, it is the sort of thing you could do as a science experiment at primary school. Is primary school level science too complicated for you?

That saltwater and freshwater don't mix, no i didn't learn such stupid thing, what i know is that both do mix.

You are obviously not an uneducated idiot, stop acting like you are. Either very basic and universal scientific principles are wrong, or you are wrong in your interpretation of a vague piece of scripture. Only an arrogant fool could believe that they are the one who is right.

I believe in science and logic and hence i believe that the quran isn't a book made by men lived before 1500 years ago, me myself
i never thought about the 2 bodies of water,one fresh and the other salty while not mixing and that there's a natural border separating them,
how then for the people who lived 1500 years ago, this verse means nothing for them but should means a lot for us.

It also astonished those who studied Geology such as Zaghloul El-Naggar who obtained his PhD in Geology from the university of Wales
in the United Kingdom.

Do i have to believe a professor who's a specialist in geology or to believe you.

 

[Augustus]

Lol, Dawkins says that freshwater and saltwater dissolve according to science, but the stupid experiment which you posted
say that they don't mix due to the differences in their densities.

I'm not interested in what Dawkins says as I think he is a buffoon so didn't watch the video.

The experiment shows that lighter liquids float on heavier liquids. It also showed very clearly that they mix as you can see a green layer between the blue and yellow.

Water stratifies based on density, turbulence in the water and friction between the 2 layers causes mixing. As I said at the beginning, they are mixing just at a slow rate.

To say that they are not mixing, or that there is an 'impermeable barrier' is incorrect. They are mixing precisely at that boundary based on the friction and resulting turbulence between the layers.

The lake you refer to is called 'Danau Cermin' literally Mirror Lake. This means obviously the water is very still, hence the limited mixing of the 2 types of water, much like in the video.

That saltwater and freshwater don't mix, no i didn't learn such stupid thing, what i know is that both do mix.

Mixing does not happen by magic, it happens by the introduction of motion to the various liquids. hence you stir a cup of coffee after you add milk. This is not a superstition based on scientific lies, it is because liquids need to be mixed.

You 'magic lake' just has limited mixing not no mixing. You can see this happen in the video and the difference between limited mixing and thorough mixing.

You can literally see the process in the video. Even a child could see it.

i never thought about the 2 bodies of water,one fresh and the other salty while not mixing and that there's a natural border separating them,
how then for the people who lived 1500 years ago, this verse means nothing for them but should means a lot for us.

"Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress"

People 1500 years ago knew that less dense liquids floated on more dense liquids, they weren't stupid. However the verse isn't referring to that.

If the verse is referring to that then it is wrong as the border is constantly 'transgressed' otherwise the top of the whole ocean would be freshwater.

The Quran is not wrong in what it says, you are wrong and by insisting on the 'miraculous' interpretation ironically you make the Quran wrong.

 

[FearGod]

I'm not interested in what Dawkins says as I think he is a buffoon so didn't watch the video.

Yes i think he's but i watched the video.

The experiment shows that lighter liquids float on heavier liquids. It also showed very clearly that they mix as you can see a green layer between the blue and yellow.

Water stratifies based on density, turbulence in the water and friction between the 2 layers causes mixing. As I said at the beginning, they are mixing just at a slow rate.

Did you try making it yourself and saw the result, the experiment shows that the freshwater floated from bottom
to the top,right.

Try making similar experiment that you can do it so easily, fill a glass to the half with very salty water and pour slowly the
other half with freshwater, then wait for awhile.

The freshwater should float,right....., try to suck from the top and watch yourself how salty it's even without the need for stirring.

To say that they are not mixing, or that there is an 'impermeable barrier' is incorrect. They are mixing precisely at that boundary based on the friction and resulting turbulence between the layers.

If they're mixing then why there're 2 seas and when will both eventually be mixed, how many years, 100 years, 1000 years..etc

The lake you refer to is called 'Danau Cermin' literally Mirror Lake. This means obviously the water is very still, hence the limited mixing of the 2 types of water, much like in the video.

There're many fishes swimming in both layers, do you think spoons will do better?

Mixing does not happen by magic, it happens by the introduction of motion to the various liquids. hence you stir a cup of coffee after you add milk. This is not a superstition based on scientific lies, it is because liquids need to be mixed.

Pour salt water in a glass and pour over it freshwater, don't stir and sip.

You 'magic lake' just has limited mixing not no mixing. You can see this happen in the video and the difference between limited mixing and thorough mixing.

You can literally see the process in the video. Even a child could see it.

Yes, only a child can't understand how amazing it's.

"Between them is a Barrier which they do not transgress"

People 1500 years ago knew that less dense liquids floated on more dense liquids, they weren't stupid. However the verse isn't referring to that.

If the verse is referring to that then it is wrong as the border is constantly 'transgressed' otherwise the top of the whole ocean would be freshwater.

You said it, if not transgressed then the whole ocean will turn to fresh, or you don't know what you're saying

The Quran is not wrong in what it says, you are wrong and by insisting on the 'miraculous' interpretation ironically you make the Quran wrong.

Where did i say magic or miracle?

 

[Augustus]

Did you try making it yourself and saw the result, the experiment shows that the freshwater floated from bottom
to the top,right.

Try making similar experiment that you can do it so easily, fill a glass to the half with very salty water and pour slowly the
other half with freshwater, then wait for awhile.

The freshwater should float,right....., try to suck from the top and watch yourself how salty it's even without the need for stirring.

Pouring = mixing

It is very difficult to pour into a glass without creating the liquids mixing. You saw in the video he didn't pour the liquids, this was to create as little mixing as possible. Even in this case you can see that there is some degree of mixing.

Your experiment mixes the water enough to get the salt taste into all of the water. If you had more sophisticated equipment you could test to see that the dense water was closer to the bottom and the less salty towards the top.

I'm not even sure what you are arguing for anymore? Are you saying the video is 'fake'? Are you saying they do mix or they don't? Are you saying that there is something 'not normal' about the lagoon in Indonesia?

What is your point?

There're many fishes swimming in both layers, do you think spoons will do better?

Pour some milk in a cup of coffee and stir with a spoon, now do the same in a swimming pool. Does the whole pool turn milky like your coffee does? The amount of water is very important here.

When you have a very large amount of saltwater and a very large amount of freshwater, the top part can stay relatively fresh (it is still saltier than it was before it mixed though).

The mixing effect of the fish compared to the total volume of water, is like you stirring a swimming pool with a teaspoon.

Remember there is not no mixing, there is a small amount of mixing, and the saltier water is continually sinking, and the new freshwater is constantly floating. It is a continuous process of readjustment.

 

[Shad]

Seems like this lake claim was brought up on the forums then refuted 3 years ago

Yes, plus the article gives some possible clues as to why it is occurring.

"...famous for its crust rock formation"

"The water soothes the skin. Sometimes it feels like a spring bubbles, and even at some point feels warm. People who wish to go swim are asked be careful with the water flows, because in some places the flows are quite strong and easy to drag people."

" It can be seen that the sea water and fresh water are separated by layers like clouds. The white muddy layer in the lake is allegedly the result of decomposition basic harbor organisms that trapped. The thickness of the layer of freshwater and saltwater can be changed in accordance with tidal sea water."

So we have a crust rock formation, probably bowl shaped, that either doesn't allow vegetation to go anywhere creating the gas that bubbles the excess debris upward, or gas escaping the rock, bubbling the debris upward, where constant fast moving fresh river water forms a layer above, while the heaver salt water drops into the rock bowl forming a saltwater bottom layer, causing the debris and bubbles to get trapped forming a specific "cloudy" layer where salt and fresh water mix with the debris.

Note also that the article says more tourists are coming, and that they like the bubbles they sometimes get, - and the long-time local that says the lake is no longer crystal clear and pristine.

And it becomes obvious that tourist "limbs" are disturbing that layer as they swim, allowing the trapped gas to escape, and allowing the fresh and salt water to mix in a more normal manner.

*

 

[Shad]

I did it before and found out that such areas indeed contains coral and pearl, you can search and find it yourself.

Considering the lake is only know in travel guides I am calling your bluff. Support your claim, your statements are not evidence.

But i believe the lake does exist, it's in Indonesia and it opens into the Celebes sea and it has 2 layers of water.

Support your claim with evidence

I believe the sources but you don't.

No you believe in a fallacious argument from authority. A travel guide is not a credible.

 

[Augustus]

Considering the lake is only know in travel guides I am calling your bluff. Support your claim, your statements are not evidence.

It's not actually a lake, more a lagoon. The 'labuan' in Danau Labuan Cermin means harbour (pelabuhan) in Indonesian and only ever refers to coastal settlements.

Seems to be a freshwater lake that gets regular but limited infusions of saltwater from the sea.

The 'cermin' (mirror) tells you that it is very still water, basically the perfect conditions for limited mixing between the 2 types of water, which while creating clear stratification nonetheless, as you know, it still contains mixing.

Obviously, it also hardly counts as "a sea".

I did it before and found out that such areas indeed contains coral and pearl, you can search and find it yourself.

He let forth the two seas that meet together, (19)between them a barrier they do not overpass. (20)O which of your Lord's bounties will you and you deny?(21)From them come forth the pearl and the coral.(22)O which of your Lord's bounties will you and you deny?

From them come the pearl and coral? Coral definitely exists in the seas around the region, but coral only exists in saltwater.

Freshwater pearls don't come from still lakes/lagoons either. So 'from them come corals and pearls' is not accurate.

Again, your 'clear sign' really doesn't stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever. The barrier is constantly 'overpassed' and it is false to claim that coral and pearls come from 'them'.

 

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Without the born tongue of the Muslim is very difficult to understand the translated words.
Yes christian understand is one god but your tongue is difficult to understand .
To many religion for one god is not wise in one head

 

[morphesium]

What prevents fresh water from becoming a salt water, bring 2 bodies of water close to each other,one salt and the other fresh,
naturally both bodies will mix and make one body of water.

We can make use of varying density of water (water with more salt would be more denser)/ temperature to make water in different layers. Even you can do that at home provided you do that carefully. They will eventually mix as time passes or if you simply stir with a spoon.

You can also do this with cold and hot water. Pour some cold water at 4 degree Celsius (water has the highest density at 4 degree Celsius) into a glass and then pour some hot water at 40 or 60 degree Celsius very gently on top of that with a help of a spoon. You can drink either cold water or hot water r (may be each with a different flavour) depending on where you place the straw.

They will mix eventually.

Edited to add:-

So when the bodies of water are large enough, (with different densities) and flowing without much turbulence, then these water bodies will keep their identity covering a vast area (and for a long time) before they finally and gradually mix.

 

[leibowde84]

Then read the original in Arabic.
Regards

That is not plausible for most. I find it hard to believe that God would require us to learn Arabic.