firedragon
Veteran Member
Oh my God.
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There are no mistakes in Quran
- Thread starter paarsurrey
- Start date
Oh my God.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa'
[4:35] Men are guardians over women because Allah has made some of them excel others, and because they (men) spend of their wealth. So virtuous women are those who are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with Allah’s protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and leave them alone in their beds, and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, Allah is High, Great.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse:&ch=4&verse=35
For Detailed English Commentary .
It is to chastise them.
Regards
[4:35] Men are guardians over women because Allah has made some of them excel others, and because they (men) spend of their wealth. So virtuous women are those who are obedient, and guard the secrets of their husbands with Allah’s protection. And as for those on whose part you fear disobedience, admonish them and leave them alone in their beds, and chastise them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Surely, Allah is High, Great.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse:&ch=4&verse=35
For Detailed English Commentary .
It is to chastise them.
Regards
Shad
Veteran Member
Which I already linked showing what chastise means.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/chastise
I would also point out your own link has English commentary which still has striking them as the explanation of chastise: http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=519®ion=E1&CR=EN,E2
Again it is amusing to see Muslims link sources that only continue to confirm the views I put forward.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Okay. Whats the difference here with the verse you gave? Whats the difference? Pls explain.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I asked you how this word جدلا is pronounced. You didnt answer that. You claim the scholars at SFU agree with you at an Islamic studies course.
1. I cant really believe someone would say such a thing, be it scholar or not. Because its wrong.
2. No Arabic scholar will say that the Quranic grammar is wrong. This is one of the things used by slanderers to show that the Quranic grammar is inferior.
This is what http://councilofexmuslims.com/wiki/en/4:34 says. Someone who has picked it up from some site.
If it meant "Strike up a similitude for them" it would have to have a preposition like ل (to/for) and a qualifying word like مثلا "Parable".
So it would have to be something like: واضربوا لهن مثلا = "And strike up for them a parable/similitude".
You said جدلا has to be used but the sentence and the example you gave is واضربوا لهن مثلا where Jadhalan is not there. You picked both the Lam and qualifying word and the sentence from two different sources. Thats the Dilemma. I understand. You have exactly cut and pasted the sentence from somewhere like the one I showed above. Same sentence. This cannot be given by an Arabic scholar, no way. Especially not a person who knows even a little bit of classical Arabic. Give me a name.
This is where you picked it up from. http://www.theexmuslim.com/2016/04/10/surah-nisa-34-q434-quran-condone-domestic-violence/
- If 4:34 meant “set forth for them by way of dispute” it would have to have a preposition like ل (to/for) and a qualifying word like “disputation” جدلا. So it would be:واضربوا لهن جدلا
Authors Note: In my opinion wadribuhunna from Qur’an 4:34 means “Hit them” and the Quran does indeed condone hitting ones wife in certain circumstances. It is a good example of why I believe the Qur’an is flawed and why some verses should be ignored
Then why do you claim that a scholar at SFU gave you this example when you did a study course?? First you quoted Jadalan but you cut and pasted a verse with Mathalan. Two different sources.
You mixed up two sources, both ex Muslim websites. Verbatim copy.
The Quranic verse does not say Laraba or dharaba. It says Ilribuhunna, a usage of laraba. The Quran defines the male female relationship as one with tranquility, and equity. Anyway there is no point explaining the science because your slip is showing mate.
Based on the Quranic rendition, it could only mean separation or going away as is used in the Quran multiple times.
I am happy if you had done Islamic studies brother, but dont quote scholars while using these external sources. Of course the example you gave is a valid sentence, but that's not Classical Arabic used in the Quran. No scholar will agree with this.
You keep saying that Arabic scholars like Yusuf Ali agrees with you. Not really, they are in the past. They dont agree with you, you agree with them. But even they have not said things like using a Lam and a qualifying word because they are not so lame. They have understood this verse this way because of the later developed views coming from ahadith, not from the microscope of the Quran.
Plus, the sources you used use the root word Laraba, read it again. The Quran uses Ilribuhunna.
This is why.
1. Failoohunna to say admonish, reprimand them.
2. Waahjuruhunna Fiulmalaji (Malaji meaning beds or bedchamber) to mean separate from them in the bed chamber
3. Wailribuhunna meaning a firm separation or a going away from someone. The object has already been identified in the verse earlier.
This is a step by step action, it does not need qualifying words, neither does it require a Lam. This is just absurd.
The 'wa' up there can be replaced by the English word and, so why would it need Lam? Its like going back to lower kindergarten.
Peace.
firedragon
Veteran Member
The word Hijab is cited 7 times in the Quran and never as a piece of clothing.
Could the word Hijab in any of these verses ever be translated as a clothing or lifestyle for women?
But the proponents of such a clothing style for women do not have any verse in the Quran to support them. Hijab as they believe in is not cited in the Quran, thus there is nothing even to change in meaning looking at it through the glass of later developed hadith.
This is what the Quran says about Hadith.
The Quran will be translated with the understanding of the language, understanding of the whole Quran, the context of the Quran and personality of the Quran.
Peace.
- And between them is a Hijab, and on the elevated platform are men who recognized others by their features. And they called out to the dwellers of the Paradise: “Peace be upon you!” They have not yet entered it, but they are hoping. – Quran 7:46
- And we place Hijabs over their hearts, that they should not understand it, and a deafness in their ears. And if you mention your Lord in the Qur’an alone, they run away turning their backs in aversion. – Quran 17:46
- So she took a Hijab to separate her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity. – Quran 19:17
- You who believe, do not enter the homes of the prophet unless you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a narrative. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a Hijab. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the messenger of God, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God. – Quran 33:53
- He said: “I have enjoyed materialism more than I enjoyed the remembrance of my Lord; until it had set beyond the Hijab!” – Quran 38:32
- And they said: “Our hearts are sealed from what you invite us to, and in our ears is a deafness, and there is a Hijab between us and you. So do what you will, and so will we.” - 41:5
- And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a Hijab, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills with His permission. He is Most High, Wise. – Quran 42:51
Could the word Hijab in any of these verses ever be translated as a clothing or lifestyle for women?
But the proponents of such a clothing style for women do not have any verse in the Quran to support them. Hijab as they believe in is not cited in the Quran, thus there is nothing even to change in meaning looking at it through the glass of later developed hadith.
This is what the Quran says about Hadith.
- 31:6 And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless Hadith with which to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.
- 7:185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which Hadith after this one will they believe?
The Quran will be translated with the understanding of the language, understanding of the whole Quran, the context of the Quran and personality of the Quran.
Peace.
Shad
Veteran Member
You are assuming I was told how to pronounce the word then demanded I demonstrate your assumption.
Just like all the other source are wrong.. Empty claims again
Yet scholars still disagree with you as I have linked source after source. Again your only claim is experts are wrong and you are right, nothing more than that.
No. I am a member of that site. However my question was asked on Facebook not on CEMB
I never said جدلا had to used. Strawman.
No I gave examples. You linked these examples together for your strawman nothing more
One you created
Doubtful
Of course I need to copy Arabic script as I can not type it myself.
Did you miss the point when I said I was given examples?
Never said it was.
Empty claim again.
Email Amyn Sajoo as he was the resident scholar of the program.
Nope. See above.
I made no such claim. Strawma you have created. Different examples not different sources.
I said they agreed with the translation. I never said they provided the example.
Nope. It was from Facebook which has no public access to the group. Granted it still contains the same argument. However I went to the source of the argument.
Not really. You have constructed a series of strawman arguments backed empty rhetoric and still have yet to show any expert agreeing with you. Your one attempt backfired in the very authors two books.
Again you are claiming experts are wrong and you are right. Nothing more
Strawman you created.
Empty statement.
Post hoc rationalization. When a translation radically changes according to the timeframe in which it was made this shows a modern moral bias influencing a translation. Violence against one's wife was acceptable during Yusuf life. Now it is no longer accepted so all translations must be different to align with modern moral values.
Obviously. I should have said I have experts and their work as a source and supportive of my argument
Except they did with their translations. They are not so quick as to discard parts of the Sunnah and tradition that do not agree with, at the time, Western standards of morality.
Which you argued above is a usage of Laraba. You had no issues in using other definitions of Daraba. Double-standards
The sources I have provided disagree. I will take their views as experts over your own especially since you have not provided a single expert that supports this
Empty statement. Absurd according to you yet not in any translation I have linked here
Sure it is
Question:
Are you are Quran only Muslim or do you just discard ahadith that disagree with your interpretation?
Shad
Veteran Member
Out of context #55. No support of #114 by any expert. #128 applies to anyone and everyone. #209 empty statement.
All you have done is show that the average Muslim disagrees with the translations of experts. Nothing more.
I see this over and over again, it's quite amusing. But perhaps it's explainable. A highly religious person relies more on faith than on critical thinking, so perhaps it's easier for a faith-based thinker to discount outside expertise. Even those experts who have devoted their lives to the study of the faithful's scripture.
Shad
Veteran Member
Not only experts but traditions that have existed for centuries. Sunnah is discarded when it doesn't align with a modern view while treating the modern view as the correct one as a presupposition. It becomes a circular argument.
firedragon
Veteran Member
firedragon
Veteran Member
Fib.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Bro, Amyn B. Sajoo is a respected lecturer at SFU too, but he is not a linguistic scholar. He is more of an expert in history and religion etc. You should not quote people like this.
So you claim that it was Dr. Sajoo who told you that the Quranic verse should be different in order for it to mean a firm separation?
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Humans could always make mistakes, to err is human. Right?
Regards
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Yes, and scripture, whether the Quran or Bible, was written by the hands of men.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Quran was authored by G-d, not by any human being.
Regards
Denial of expertise is dangerous:
- parents who don't bring their kids to doctors
- Christians who deny climate change
- Politicians who pretend to understand how women's bodies work
Yes, experts also make mistakes, but in their area of expertise, they make far fewer mistakes than amateurs.
leibowde84
Veteran Member
You have to check up on your history. Muhammad was a man, and he dictated the Quran to literate scribes. God did not put pen to paper.