There are no mistakes in Quran

[Jabar]

@paarsurrey Yes, as Quran is not a science book nor a history book.

 

[Shad]

@Shad I was still able to prove you wrong even with the mistranslation and misconceptions made.

Nope you still made equivocation fallacies in your terms and treat the BB as if was not an inflation but something being cut, torn, etc.

I have reached a conclusion.

An unjustified conclusion

When the Qur'an is read with no mistranslations, no misconceptions made by humans, nothing of that sort.

You are a human reading the Quran, making misconception every single post. All you have done is declare your view is immune to every other human's view.

Basically, when known the exact meaning of what God revealed, there is no error. This does mean Quran has no errors. It is the people who make it as so called error.

You made plenty of errors but since you declared your interpretation to be that of Allah you have shown Allah to be wrong.

 

[Jabar]

@Shad Haha, you still remain arrogant and you say the Bible makes the same claims. Okay now i would like you to tell me how these points are mistranslations or misconceptions in any way shape or form. Look at this and try to prove me that this is a mistranslation of any sort or misconception made by me:
The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses No.16, that…‘God created two lights the greater light, the Sun to rule the day, and the lesser light the Moon, to rule the night. The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’ And that you will come to know better, if you read both the Verses – Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse. 16, as well as 17. Verse No.17 says…‘And Almighty God placed them in the firmament, to give light to the earth… To give light to the earth.’ Indicating, that Sun and the Moon has its own light - which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have. There are certain people who try and reconciliate, and say that the six days mentioned in the Bible, it actually refers to epocs - like the Qur’an long periods - not six, 24 hour day. It is illogical - you read in the Bible, evening, morning - It clearly states 24 hours, it indicates. But even if I use the concordance approach - no problem. I agree with your illogical argument - Yet they will only be able to solve the 1st scientific error of 6 days creation, and second, of first day ‘light’ and 3rd day ‘earth.’ The remaining four, yet they cannot solve. Some further say that… ‘If it is a 24-hour period, why cannot the vegetables survive for one 24 hour day without sunlight?’ I say ‘Fine - If you say that the vegetables were created before the sun, and can survive for one 24-hour day, I have got no objection. But you cannot say the days mentioned are 24 hours as well as epochs - You cannot have the cake and eat it, both. If you say it is long period, you solve Point No.1 and 3, the remaining 4 are yet there. If you say the days are 24 hours day, you solve only Point No.5 - the remaining 5 are yet there - It becomes unscientific. I leave it to Dr. William Campbell, whether he wants to say… ‘It is long period’, and say that there are only 4 scientific errors - or say… ‘It is a 24 hour day’, and say there is only 5 scientific errors in the creation of the universe.
This is only one of the many actual errors of the Bible

 

[Jabar]

@Shad This was said by Zakir Naik, check the website: http://www.discoveringislam.org/bible_scientific_errors.htm

 

[Shad]

@Shad All the mistranslations and misconceptions made make you think that it is not correct.

Since my argument is based on your own misconceptions these are your mistakes not mine. I just pointed out your mistakes.

If not then why is it approved in the Hadith scripture?

It isn't as no hadith talks about the BB.

Do not make a misconception and say that because the Quran is clear.

I see errors and you bring up errors in your argument. You refuted your own claims about the Quran long ago.

Muhammad the greatest messenger, obviously knew what the actual Quran was saying as it was revealed in Qur'an.

Religious presupposition, nothing more.

There were no mistranslations.

Actually there were. Some words in the Quran Oman and Bakr didn't even know.

So, if the hadith approves of it and i do as well while we have read them to the correct translations, then you cannot say anything that associates God with me or Muhammad.

Empty statement. You do not like people poking holes in your religious ideology then claim these are off limits. Sorry but that isn't about to happen. If Mo made the Quran with the errors I have pointed out it does force a conclusion that iether he was a fraud of Allah does know very much about his own creation. You force this dilemma with your absolutist claims.

Obviously, Muhammad knows a lot more than i do about the Quran. This is really a miracle and is highly unlikely after taking consideration in the time period.

Religious rhetoric.

Like this is truly amazing.

Argument from incredulity.

If you would have told him this so called error, he would prove you wrong because he was revealed to it at the time and knew the exact meaning of what God meant.

Yes because hypothetical time machines resolve all your problems..... Here is one. Maybe if you went back in time you could see Mo's claims were false. That is the nice thing about hypothetical, anyone can make these and the results mean nothing in reality

But todays society has mistranslations. You see my point?

No since you rely on the verse translations in your own argument.

 

[Jabar]

@Shad Now tell me how this is the same flawed arguement?

 

[Shad]

@Shad Haha, you still remain arrogant and you say the Bible makes the same claims.

It does. Read Genesis

The Bible says in Genesis, Ch. 1, Verses No.16, that…‘God created two lights the greater light, the Sun to rule the day, and the lesser light the Moon, to rule the night. The actual translation, if you go to the Hebrew text, it is ‘lamps’…‘Lamps having lights of its own.’ And that you will come to know better, if you read both the Verses – Genesis, Ch. No.1, Verse. 16, as well as 17. Verse No.17 says…‘And Almighty God placed them in the firmament, to give light to the earth… To give light to the earth.’ Indicating, that Sun and the Moon has its own light - which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have.

Same type of issue in which you translate the word for light as reflected light. You acknowledge one but not the other. Double-standards

There are certain people who try and reconciliate, and say that the six days mentioned in the Bible, it actually refers to epocs - like the Qur’an long periods - not six, 24 hour day.

You did the same thing as the Christians do by saying the word does not mean a literal day.

It is illogical - you read in the Bible, evening, morning - It clearly states 24 hours, it indicates.

Same argument as others pointed out but you ignored.

But even if I use the concordance approach - no problem. I agree with your illogical argument - Yet they will only be able to solve the 1st scientific error of 6 days creation, and second, of first day ‘light’ and 3rd day ‘earth.’ The remaining four, yet they cannot solve. Some further say that… ‘If it is a 24-hour period, why cannot the vegetables survive for one 24 hour day without sunlight?’

You have done the same thing regarding the Earth at the time of the BB. Change the ordering to match the ordering of the BB theory. Besides I do agree with the error within the Bible, I have argued this before. However ulike yourself I do not need to make fallacy arguments to reconciles the Quran's mistakes.

I say ‘Fine - If you say that the vegetables were created before the sun, and can survive for one 24-hour day, I have got no objection. But you cannot say the days mentioned are 24 hours as well as epochs - You cannot have the cake and eat it, both. If you say it is long period, you solve Point No.1 and 3, the remaining 4 are yet there. If you say the days are 24 hours day, you solve only Point No.5 - the remaining 5 are yet there - It becomes unscientific. I leave it to Dr. William Campbell, whether he wants to say… ‘It is long period’, and say that there are only 4 scientific errors - or say… ‘It is a 24 hour day’, and say there is only 5 scientific errors in the creation of the universe.
This is only one of the many actual errors of the Bible

Same type of reconciliation as you have done.

You should also go look up the response from Christians that still support these views. The same type of mental gymnastic used by you will be used by them. However you did take my point well out of context. I said the Bible mentions about a creation event. It does. Thus nothing special at all when the Quran does the same. Both place the Earth at the time of this event. It is merely repeating the same idea that the Earth existed 14 billion years ago. Also a Christian did argue the very same type of argument you have on this forum. Genesis 1-3 does not mention the order in which the Earth was created. Same denial used by both you to rescue your claims based on fallacious reasoning.

 

[Shad]

@Shad Now tell me how this is the same flawed arguement?

Same equivocation fallacies for day. Same reconciliation of incorrect ordering so the ordering matches the BB. Apologists tend to favor the same flawed reasoning be Islam, Christianity, etc.

 

[Shad]

@Shad This was said by Zakir Naik, check the website: http://www.discoveringislam.org/bible_scientific_errors.htm

Zakir is a hack. The fact you take him seriously speaks volumes about you and how you think. He merely copied what non-literal Christians have been saying for decades.

Also you linked website sets off my AV. Stop Googling your answers and clicking on any random website that confirms you presupposition.

 

[Jabar]

@Shad What are you even saying you just said Mo making errors with the Qur'an, that is not what i said. You are making misconceptions after misconceptions. I rely on the correct version of translations used. I do not go off of who made the translation. You say the Bible has the same argument but i proved you wrong. Btw, do not just reply to when i say they were no mistranslations. When i said there were no mistranslations, i meant when God revealed the Quran to Muhammad as he knew the correct meaning behind what people misconcept including the BB. Once again you say i would see Mo's claims as false in the paste, the misconceptions that you claim are false are not defined as false. When i say it is amazing it really is. Look at the time period of when this all occured. You say the Hadith does not talk about the BB. It clearly implies it. Jabir ibn `Abd Allah said to the Prophet

: "O Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be sacrificed for you, tell me of the first thing Allah created before all things." He said: "O Jabir, the first thing Allah created was the light of your Prophet from His light, and that light remained (lit. "turned") in the midst of His Power for as long as He wished, and there was not, at that time, a Tablet or a Pen or a Paradise or a Fire or an angel or a heaven or an earth. The light of Muhammad is the universe. So when you say the earth was before the universe is not accurate because this does not say that and as well in the Quran it never says that that the earth is created first then universe. It objects this, and my others translation of Quran that indicates it was the BB shows that.

 

[Jabar]

@Shad How is he a hack? Do you even know what the definition of a hack is? And when you say he copies what Christians have been saying for decades is absurd. Go watch his debates against Christians. The things you say are so arrogant that this is not worthy of a debate. Random websites? You do the same. Besides, i have done research on other websites and this one, this sounds most evidential and proves misconcepted people like you wrong. This clearly shows your hypocrisy.

 

[Jabar]

@Shad You see, once i provide evidence on how the Bible contains errors you do not have an argument against. You say Bible has the same mistranslations and misconceptions as Islam do however you just change the subject and call a well-known scholar who has more knowledge than yourself a hack? Come on. This is a false claim you just made.

 

[Jabar]

@Shad Anyways, i respect your beliefs. But everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I have to go to sleep because i have somewhere to attend to. May peace mercy and blessing be upon you. Have a nice day!
Regards

 

[Shad]

@Shad What are you even saying you just said Mo making errors with the Qur'an, that is not what i said.

Mo communicated the words so either he was wrong or Allah was. You forced this conclusion by maintaining your claims are authentic rather just a human interpretation. If you did so your view would be fallible so you immunize your view, and fail to do so, from criticism.

You are making misconceptions after misconceptions. I rely on the correct version of translations used.

Considering it was your posts that treat smoke as gas, treat the BB as something torn, cut, cleaved, these are all your mistakes that I have pointed out.

I do not go off of who made the translation.

Except you did, you even cited the human writer of the website. Oh nevermind humans are infallible when they agree with you but not when you disagree

You say the Bible has the same argument but i proved you wrong.

No you didn't. You didn't even read my post. I said a creation event like the BB, nothing more. You copied and paste the closest thing you could find since you are unable to develop your own arguments.

Btw, do not just reply to when i say they were no mistranslations.

Too bad since you translations are in your own citations

When i said there were no mistranslations, i meant when God revealed the Quran to Muhammad as he knew the correct meaning behind what people misconcept including the BB.

Empty statement based on religious ideology, nothing more.

Once again you say i would see Mo's claims as false in the paste, the misconceptions that you claim are false are not defined as false.

No I countered your absurd hypothetical scenario involving a time machine against your view. I was pointing out that argument is pure nonsense and proves nothing.

When i say it is amazing it really is. Look at the time period of when this all occured. You say the Hadith does not talk about the BB. It clearly implies it.

It doesn't. You want it to. There is a difference.

Jabir ibn `Abd Allah said to the Prophet

: "O Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be sacrificed for you, tell me of the first thing Allah created before all things." He said: "O Jabir, the first thing Allah created was the light of your Prophet from His light, and that light remained (lit. "turned") in the midst of His Power for as long as He wished, and there was not, at that time, a Tablet or a Pen or a Paradise or a Fire or an angel or a heaven or an earth. The light of Muhammad is the universe.

Since the BB model does not include the Light of the Prophet the above has zero to do with the BB.

So when you say the earth was before the universe is not accurate because this does not say that and as well in the Quran it never says that that the earth is created first then universe. It objects this, and my others translation of Quran that indicates it was the BB shows that.

None of the translation support the BB prior to the 20th century, only after this was discovered was there a change. Post hoc rationalization, nothing more.

 

[Shad]

@Shad You see, once i provide evidence on how the Bible contains errors you do not have an argument against.

Because I did not claim the Bible was error free did I. Nothing but projecting what you think on to me as if I had said it.

You say Bible has the same mistranslations and misconceptions as Islam do however you just change the subject and call a well-known scholar who has more knowledge than yourself a hack? Come on. This is a false claim you just made.

No I said Christians that hold this view do make the same arguments you have by treating days as a period not involving what we consider a day. Just as you did when pointed out by another user. You made a strawman, nothing more.
Congratulation on defeating an argument I never made. 1 for you, 0 for your imagination......

 

[Shad]

@Shad How is he a hack?

By making an argument that is decades old as if it was his own.

Do you even know what the definition of a hack is?

Yes, as in unoriginal work which he presented.

And when you say he copies what Christians have been saying for decades is absurd. Go watch his debates against Christians.

The argument against Genesis is not his own. It has existed for decades. If you think he came up with this himself you have not read anything published by the Roman Catholic Church which treats Genesis as allegory

The things you say are so arrogant that this is not worthy of a debate.

You confuse arrogance with confidence. Excuses, nothing more

Random websites? You do the same.

No I have only used the Quran Corpus today.

Besides, i have done research on other websites and this one, this sounds most evidential and proves misconcepted people like you wrong.

Considering your previous mistakes your research has no merit. Your misconception, not mine. I only used your sources except for checking the verses in the Quran Corpus.

What is smoke son?

This clearly shows your hypocrisy.

Nope. It shows that your opinion of yourself is very high but you are unable to avoid fallacious reasoning so your opinion is simple an overestimation of your abilities. You seem to think I have never heard your shtick before. Its not new to me at all.

 

[Shad]

@Shad Anyways, i respect your beliefs.

But everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

You are claiming fact not stating an opinion. So go ahead and pretend otherwise.

I have to go to sleep because i have somewhere to attend to. May peace mercy and blessing be upon you. Have a nice day!
Regards

Peace.[/QUOTE]

 

[Jabar]

@Shad Haha, you got it all backward man. See you man. I believe you will see in the day of judgement what is right from wrong.
Regards

 

[Shad]

@Shad Haha, you got it all backward man. See you man. I believe you will see in the day of judgement what is right from wrong.

Not really since my points are about your own arguments and your mistakes.

Another religious presupposition. Using something some does not believe in as a threat is pointless. Thor will smash you with this hammer, be scared.... Christian Jesus will have something to say about your lack of faith in Christianity..... It also reflect that you seem to think fear should motivate me into believing. So in the end after all your arguments you only threaten me with your God....

 

[gnostic]

@Jabar

When it come to science, I have not met a single honest Muslim here, who don't twist science to fit the Qur'an, or twist the verses in the Qur'an to fit the science.

Muslims who take part in science-religion debates WILL ALWAYS take ONE or the OTHER, out of contexts, but more often than not, they (Muslim apologists) would pervert BOTH science and their own religion, just as Christian creationists would do.

And looking at your replies in recent days, Jabar, it is sad to you that you are no different from all those (Muslims) I have encountered.

Not all Muslims do this, and I have seen absence of many Muslim members, because they wisely avoid attaching any "science" significance to the Qur'an, because they know it would bite them back.

But some Muslims here are not so wise, and only demonstrate their lack of education in science or demonstrate their dishonesty in taking the verses out of the original context.

The dishonesty is in the modern interpretations of the Qur'an, the claiming of "scientific miracles" or "scientific signs" in certain verses.

Through your claims and claims made by other people like yourself, you have exposed those verses for criticism and for everyone else (non-Muslims) to dismantle the verses as having errors.

Muslims should have left those verses alone, because everyone who have knowledge in science can see that there indeed errors in the Qur'an, and not just errors of Muslims' interpretations, and thereby exposing how dishonest modern Muslims are.

This is why I don't trust anything Muslims say when they talk of Qur'an and science together.

It created it through the Big Bang as modern science approves of. So to say it does not describe how the Earth was made is absurd.

I have been here at RF long enough to have debated with Muslims on lot of the same subjects that you have brought up, before you did; subject on the so-called "scientific miracles" in the Qur'anic verses.

They are not "scientific", and never have been "scientific". All you are doing is putting modern interpretations to the verse by taking the verses out of context. And all you are doing is exposing the weaknesses in those verses, as other Muslims have done before you.

The absurdity is your claim, in thinking that the Earth was around.

If you have ever understood anything about the Big Bang cosmology, then you would know that the Big Bang didn't create the earth, because our solar system didn't exist before 5 billion years ago. Our earth didn't exist 13.7 billion years ago.

The universe wasn't "made" with the earth. The earth and sun (and our entire solar system) came a lot later, they didn't form until the universe was already 9 billion years old or so.

I have actually seen, read, and understood these verses that you cited in your earlier posts (replies to YmirGF) and I have debated with Muslims on the topic of verses that you have associated the Big Bang before. And you are taking those verses out of context, and misunderstanding all the science behind what you have claimed.

Let me, bring up this "smoke" first in the verse 41:11, before I tell you what is wrong with claims of the Big Bang.

In science and engineering, gases and smoke are two different things. The gases they have mentioned in astronomy, particularly in cosmology like the Big Bang, are not smoke.

These gases in the early young universe, like hydrogen and helium, are not smoke. They were first formed without electrons during the Big Bang Nucleosynthesis (BBN) epoch (starting about when the universe was only 3 minutes old, and ending when the universe was 20 minutes old). They are not smoke or dust, they are just unstable hydrogen and helium atoms. Unstable because there were no electrons to balance the positive charged atoms, in another word, ionised hydrogen and helium atoms. (Note that there were also trace amount of ionised lithium around this time.)

Stable atoms (or elements) didn't form until the Recombination epoch, when the electrons binded with ionised atoms, which started around universe 377,000 years old. This is when real MATTERS exist, as you know them in the periodic table, with hydrogen having one electron and one proton (but no neutron), and helium having two electrons and in the nucleus, two protons and two neutrons.

When the first stars formed, they were formed from mostly from hydrogen element, and with some trace amount of helium. These new young stars were not formed from dust or smoke, but from pure gases.

And there were no planets, when the first stars formed in the early universe.

Smoke are by-product waste, often containing carbon, but there were no carbon at this stage of the universe before the first stars, because there were no heavier elements than lithium. There were also no oxygen and nitrogen elements before the formation of the first stars. Smoke come from AFTER burning of solid or liquid fuel. Smoke is pretty much useless, unless you are using smoke to scare off certain creature or you are smoking meat (like ham) or fishes (like salmon). Smoke can't be reused, because as I have already said it is by-product waste.

And the sun and Earth (and other planets) were formed from gases, dust and heavier elements from previous stars, but not from smoke.

Did you understand any of what I have just written Jabar?

None of your claim about smoke in the Qur'an, is related to anything "scientific". You are just wrong, not only with the science, but with your interpretation of the verse in question (4:11).

I don't think you understand the difference between primordial gases of the early universe and smoke. Hence, I would put your claim, not so much as dishonesty, but just your ignorance on the subject.

This post is already too long, so I will talk of your claim in the Big Bang, in my next reply.