There are no mistakes in Quran

[gnostic]

Before I begin with the Big Bang (BB) and the verse you claimed to relate to BB, I just wanted to point out one misconception that Muslims (as well as Christian creationists) often make. That is the word "heaven" or "heavens".

I think Muslims often interpret heaven or heavens with the universe. That's because they are trying to put modern interpretations (like modern science, eg modern astronomy). This is a gross mistake on the Muslims' parts because they are deliberately taking the ancient verses out of context.

Whenever the Qur'an is talking about heaven, it is actually talking about the sky, and not the universe.

The sky is everything that man can see without the aid of the telescope, and that include the sun, moon, stars and clouds.

The sky is not the whole universe, just what humans could see.

There are many words for SKY, like "heavens", "vault", "dome", "firmament"...and what trip every Muslims I have ever met at this forum, the other name for sky, is EXPANSE.

This EXPANSE is simply the sky, and when they come across the words or translations, like the "heaven is expanding" or "heaven is stretching", it is not talking about the universe or the expanding universe, but the verse simply mean the SKY. The stretching or expanding is referring to the sky that can be seen from one horizon to the other - from east to west, from north to south. That's what the Qur'an really mean when it is talking about the heavens being stretched or expanded.

The EXPANSE have nothing to do with the expanding universe.

The ancient Egyptian used the same words to describe the sky - EXPANSE. They called the sky or heavens - the "Great Expanse". And so does the bible.

Here, are some examples of what I mean about the SKY, in the bible, but using different translation of the same verses (Genesis 1:6-8):

KJV (King James Version):

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

NRSV (New Revised Standard Version):

6 And God said, “Let there be a dome in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7 So God made the dome and separated the waters that were under the dome from the waters that were above the dome. And it was so. 8 God called the dome Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

NIV (New International Version):

6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the vault “sky”. And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

NJPS (New Jewish Publication Society, 1985):

6God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the water, that it may separate water from water.” 7God made the expanse, and it separated the water which was below the expanse from the water which was above the expanse. And it was so. 8God called the expanse Sky. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Dead Sea Scrolls Bible (2012, translated by Martin, Flint & Ulrich):

6 And God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide [the waters from the waters.” 7 And] God [made] the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmam[ ent from the waters] which were above the firmament. And it was so. 8 And God called the firmament heav[ en. And there was evening and] there was morning, a second day.

Whether you use the word "heaven", "dome", vault", "firmament" or "expanse", they all mean the same thing - SKY, not the universe.

Comparing the different names for sky with that of the verse you had quoted from the Qur'an - 21:30:

Sahih International:

Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?

Pickthall:

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

Yusuf Ali:

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

The waters "below", obviously mean the seas or oceans, so the waters "above" would mean the sky, plus atmospheres and the clouds. So God is simply dividing the Earth (with waters) from the sky.

I think, no, I know that Qur'an 21:30 (with this "cleaving", "parting") is talking about the same thing as Genesis 1:6-7 (with "dividing", "separating"). So this "we clove them asunder", relate to separating the sky from earth's surface, and have nothing to do with the universe or with the Big Bang.

So essentially Muhammad is saying the same thing as the older Genesis 1, but just wording it differently. Both Qur'an and Genesis are simply saying the sky and Earth was separated into distinct zones.

So there is really nothing unique about this verse.

This dividing the earth and heaven (sky) into two, is nothing unique to any Abrahamic religion. The separating of heaven (sky) and earth, can be found in the Sumerian poem relating to the hero Gilgames, written in the late 3rd millennium BCE - "Bilgames and the Netherworld" (extract from the source George Andrews, 1999, The Epic of Gilgamesh, p 179):

In those days, in those far-off days,
in those nights, in those distant nights,
in those years, in those far-off years,
in olden times, after what was needed had become manifest,
in olden times, after what was needed had been taken care of,
after bread had been swallowed in the sanctuaries of the land,
after the ovens of land had been fired up with bellows,
after heaven had been parted from earth,
after the earth had been separated from heaven,
after the name of mankind had been established -
then, after the god An had taken heavens for himself,
after the god Enlil had taken the earth for himself,
and after he had presented the Netherworld to the goddess Ereshkigal as a dowry-gift...

As you can see from the above quote I had provided, separating the sky (heaven) and Earth, is not unique to either Judeo-Christian Genesis/Bible or the Islamic Qur'an.

None of the description in the Qur'an, Genesis or the Sumerian poem say anything about the universe or the Big Bang.

Your reply to YmirGF (post 812), showed that your education or scholarship in literature outside of the Qur'an to be sadly lacking, and your knowledge on the Big Bang is nothing more than cherrypicking.

And worse still, you don't really understand your own Qur'an as you think or believe you do. That I understand your verse better than you do, just how pitiful your knowledge on the Qur'an, and I am not even expert in the Qur'an...which I find hilarious funny.

Do you want to refute your other claims, about the Qur'an and Earth?

 

[Jabar]

@gnostic You are agreeing that Quran makes no mistakes. Besides even if it does not explain the Big Bang theory, it still remains a theory. It is not a fact. So, please stop trying to make me feel as though i have made a misconception. When in fact the people made the misconceptions about the Quran as you agree upon.

 

[Jabar]

@gnostic Once again you are making misconceptions. You first agree that society makes the misconceptions. Now you put the Quran at blame? You really are being a hypocrite. I believe you yourself has not read the Qur'an, also knowing it in Arabic does help a lot as there are many mistranslations. You are telling me i am not doing my part but you yourself is not. Please, stop making false claims.

 

[Jabar]

@gnostic ...“ Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, “Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion.” They said, “We have come willingly.” [/B]... It implies here that the earth and the universe (heaven being the universe/space) were created at the same time,

In the Qur'an, "heaven" can refer both to the heaven in which God lives, and the atmosphere of the Earth. In this verse, it is better interpreted that "heaven" mean Earth's atmosphere; the previous verses describe how God is creating the Earth, this verse tells of how he composes the atmosphere to support life, and the following verse describes the seven layers of the atmosphere. So, do not say it is referring to the sky.
Scientists say that before the galaxies in the universe were formed, celestial
matter was initially in the form of gaseous matter. In short, huge gaseous
matter or clouds were present before the formation of the galaxies. To
describe initial celestial matter, the word ‘smoke’ is more appropriate than
gas. The following Qur’aanic verse refers to this state of the universe by the
word dhukhan which means smoke.

“Moreover, He Comprehended In His design the sky, And it had been
(as) smoke: He said to it And to the earth: ‘Come ye together, Willingly
or unwillingly.’ They said: ‘We do come (Together), in willing
obedience.’” [Al-Qur’aan 41:11]

 

[Jabar]

@gnostic I may have made a misconception, so do not jump to conclusions. Also,
Its not alright to compare the holy Qur'an with this theory because you do not know when big bang theory may be disproved and a new theory may come into existence.

 

[Jabar]

@gnostic @Shad
Basically, here's how it goes down my fellow infidels:

Whenever modern science confirms something in the Qur'an: scientific evidence, proof of divine origin, etc
Whenever modern science contradicts something in the Qur'an: it's a metaphor, you're bad at interpreting God's message, or science got it wrong.

Talk about confirmation bias. Sheesh.

Rather:

Whenever the Qur'an says something that is confirmed by modern science: miracle, greater understanding of what we have already been told.
Whenever the Qur'an says something that is not absolutely confirmed by modern science: interpret it metaphorically until it can be proven.

Everything in the Qur'an should be interpreted metaphorically (in the sense that everything should increase one's consciousness of God and His creation, and may be explained in a metaphorical sense to do so). Some verses, however, align with certain scientific findings; God gave us the knowledge to discover these things so we should not ignore such discoveries, but use them to expand upon what Islam formerly taught. If science proves to be wrong, we only continue changing or adding to our understanding. The Qur'an and the hadiths are a basic foundation for certain truths, and God gives us the capability to find the rest.

 

[Jabar]

@Shad @gnostic Read this: http://www.big-bang-theory.com/
I might be misconcepted as you guys are. Maybe the Big Bang theory was not real. However, this explains that there is evidence that shows expansion instead of explosion
Quran states:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

So, you cannot put an error in the Qur'an, the BB is a theory that has not been proven and who knows it could be not true. So, you have to take the right interpretation of Quran. Quran remains with no error. It is the people that are making the errors.

 

[gnostic]

You are agreeing that Quran makes no mistakes.

I have mentioned errors in past replies already. That the Qur'an is full of myths and fables, therefore it is false.

Pay attention, Jabar.

Characters from Adam to Solomon don't exist, historically or archaeologically. That's all errors.

Jinns and talking animals...error...and more error.

The creation in 6 days is also error. (I didn't mention this one, but I'm doing so now.) This didn't happen, so scientifically, this is an error.

Besides even if it does not explain the Big Bang theory, it still remains a theory. It is not a fact.

Again. You don't understand the basics in science.

A "scientific" theory is a thorough explanation, including predictions that have been "verified". A scientific theory is not itself "fact", but it does explain fact.

What I mean by "verified" is that the prediction and explanation (A) have many evidences to support, or (B) it have been repeatedly and rigorously tested.

Before any theory are accepted, there have to evidences or success in tests, and the most common way to achieve is for it to undergo Scientific Method, and then everything being reviewed by the peers (scientists within the field of expertise).

A theory is successful hypothesis.

A hypothesis is similar to theory, in which explanation and prediction(s) are provided, in the papers. It is different to theory, because a hypothesis (A) hasn't been tested yet, or (B) it is currently undergoing testings.

If all or most evidences go against the hypothesis, or it failed in all or most of the tests, then the hypothesis has been refuted, and therefore discarded.

A hypothesis should also be discarded, if there are no evidences to support the claims or statements.

A hypothesis should also be discarded and rejected, if the hypothesis is "untestable".

Look at hypothesis as a "proposed" explanation, or a "prototype", while a scientific theory is like the "finished product".

But getting back to your claim, that the verse 21:30 implied the Big Bang, that verse is not a theory, because it doesn't explain. Verse 21:30 is not even hypothesis, because again, it doesn't explain anything.

When I said previously that science explain any phenomenon, I was actually referring to "scientific theory".

So, please stop trying to make me feel as though i have made a misconception. When in fact the people made the misconceptions about the Quran as you agree upon.

Once again you are making misconceptions. You first agree that society makes the misconceptions.

What misconception did I write?

I am unclear what you mean, because you didn't quote what you are arguing against, which make it hard for me to answer you.

If you are referring to society, as in people make mistakes or misinterpret, then yes they do.

Now you put the Quran at blame? You really are being a hypocrite.

Actually, it can be blame, because it had been composed and written by people, therefore it is subject to errors and contradictions.

I don't any God was responsible for its composition, because if. A God had actually written it, I would expect to be not filled with so many superstitious craps and fables, and just plain falsehood.

I believe you yourself has not read the Qur'an, also knowing it in Arabic does help a lot as there are many mistranslations.

I have read the Qur'an from cover-to-cover.

It was the Yusuf Ali translation...I must say it wasn't a good translation.

But I think the notion, that it can only be understood in Arabic, is utter nonsense. Even if I was to read it in Arabic, I would still wouldn't believe in Solomon being able to understand the languages of ants or birds, or Solomon being able to control jinns or winds.

And the notion that God created the whole universe in 6 days, understanding Arabic, still won't make me accept the Qur'an being true, because the claim is scientifically UN true.

The (single) night journey where Muhammad was said to have visit a mosque (the furthest mosque was presumably to be in Jerusalem) that don't even exist; understanding Arabic won't make me believe any less that Muhammad is obviously lying to everyone. He wanted to be accepted as a prophet so he make up something that's obviously is a lie.

 

[gnostic]

@gnostic ...“ Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, “Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion.” They said, “We have come willingly.” [/B]... It implies here that the earth and the universe (heaven being the universe/space) were created at the same time,

In the Qur'an, "heaven" can refer both to the heaven in which God lives, and the atmosphere of the Earth. In this verse, it is better interpreted that "heaven" mean Earth's atmosphere; the previous verses describe how God is creating the Earth, this verse tells of how he composes the atmosphere to support life, and the following verse describes the seven layers of the atmosphere. So, do not say it is referring to the sky.
Scientists say that before the galaxies in the universe were formed, celestial
matter was initially in the form of gaseous matter. In short, huge gaseous
matter or clouds were present before the formation of the galaxies. To
describe initial celestial matter, the word ‘smoke’ is more appropriate than
gas. The following Qur’aanic verse refers to this state of the universe by the
word dhukhan which means smoke.

“Moreover, He Comprehended In His design the sky, And it had been
(as) smoke: He said to it And to the earth: ‘Come ye together, Willingly
or unwillingly.’ They said: ‘We do come (Together), in willing
obedience.’” [Al-Qur’aan 41:11]

You don't know what you are talking about...that much is obvious.

 

[Jabar]

@gnostic What you are not getting is that if it is not translated into the correct form then it is not the Quran but what people make it as. The fables you mentioned of i told you about but you still object islam about the fables. You just admit it is the people who make the error, so then it is not the Quran, that is not what the Quran says. These are mistranslations you make and not just that but also misconceptions you make. When it said Allah created the earth in 6 days, refer to this website for the Truth: http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/my_04.htm

 

[firedragon]

But I think the notion, that it can only be understood in Arabic, is utter nonsense. Even if I was to read it in Arabic, I would still wouldn't believe in Solomon being able to understand the languages of ants or birds, or Solomon being able to control jinns or winds.

From your point of view, you are absolutely fair in saying this.

 

[firedragon]

The (single) night journey where Muhammad was said to have visit a mosque (the furthest mosque was presumably to be in Jerusalem) that don't even exist; understanding Arabic won't make me believe any less that Muhammad is obviously lying to everyone. He wanted to be accepted as a prophet so he make up something that's obviously is a lie.

But thats not in the Quran right?

 

[gnostic]

@Shad @gnostic Read this: http://www.big-bang-theory.com/
I might be misconcepted as you guys are. Maybe the Big Bang theory was not real. However, this explains that there is evidence that shows expansion instead of explosion

Straw man, Jabar.

I have never once stated that the Big Bang was an explosion.

When did I say that?

All I have been saying that misinterpreting the verses what you are reading.

I have explained to you already that ancient people often used the word EXPANSE and HEAVEN to describe the SKY, which has nothing to do with the universe. The only stretching, the verse is describing is that the sky stretch from horizon to horizon, eg east to west.

 

[gnostic]

But thats not in the Quran right?

Am I wrong that all Muslims believe that he did undertake this night journey?

Am I wrong that Muslims assume that this furthest mosque is in Jerusalem?

Please correct me if I wrong? But will you accept it that you might be wrong or that the Qur'an might be wrong or false?

 

[gnostic]

@Shad @gnostic Read this: http://www.big-bang-theory.com/
I might be misconcepted as you guys are. Maybe the Big Bang theory was not real.

Actually, there are more evidences that verified the Big Bang to be true, then the Qur'an on Adam, Abraham, Ishamel, Solomon and Jesus.

And there are no evidences to support the existence of Allah, Gabriel, Iblis or jinns.

And Jabar, I understand the Big Bang far better than you do, that much is obvious.

 

[Shad]

@Shad @gnostic Read this: http://www.big-bang-theory.com/
I might be misconcepted as you guys are. Maybe the Big Bang theory was not real. However, this explains that there is evidence that shows expansion instead of explosion

No just you have the misconceptions, not others.

Quran states:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

Modern translation ad hoc after the BB model was published. Before it was vast.

So, you cannot put an error in the Qur'an, the BB is a theory that has not been proven and who knows it could be not true.

Already have based on the error in which the universe and the Earth were one and were separated. If something is separated into two both objects exist after, not one 9 billion years later. Also the Earth is in the universe thus split from nothing.

So, you have to take the right interpretation of Quran. Quran remains with no error. It is the people that are making the errors.

Still has errors like the spiting of Heaven pointed out above

 

[Shad]

But thats not in the Quran right?

Partially. The night journey is in 17:1. Ahadith expand this story with more details; what he did, what happened beyond the journey, etc.

 

[firedragon]

Am I wrong that all Muslims believe that he did undertake this night journey?

Am I wrong that Muslims assume that this furthest mosque is in Jerusalem?

Please correct me if I wrong? But will you accept it that you might be wrong or that the Qur'an might be wrong or false?

All I say is, that its just not in the Quran. Only since you said that you read the Quran from cover to cover and spoke of an extra quranic belief.

Your point is valid Gnostic. (I dont know how to put an @ sign in front of your name and address you the way Jabar does)

But, this is not in the Quran.

 

[gnostic]

Circular reason much?

Aside from this, I couldn't help but note that you failed to mention that the heart of the unbeliever is hardened towards the Qur'an and that Allah has covered our eyes with a veil.... Jus' sayin'

For what it is worth, I'm all in favor of FireDragon reinterpreting verses and words... though it does make one pause to wonder why it took Muslims nearly 1500 years to refine their thinking. Evidently many of the passages are not as clear as the book tells us they are.

There lies the problem among Muslims.

The only reason why some Muslims don't often agree on interpretation of certain passages is that the those passages are vagues or ambiguous. But Jabar keep repeating himself the Qur'an is not vague.

And the funny thing is that if everything is so clear to Jabar, then why do they need need Islamic scholars to explain to them what those vague passages mean?

One of the reasons why some of hadiths were made, is because certain passages in the Qur'an weren't so self-explanatory. So the scholars of those days have to write the hadiths.

The thing is, that I am less impressed by the Muslim scholars today, than those lived a few centuries after Muhammad. Muslims of today, in general, seemed more backwards than those past Muslims.

 

[gnostic]

Proof is not for Mathematics only. The Qur´an still contains the Mathematical proof you speak of.

What maths?

I don't see any mathematical equations in the Qur'an.

If anything the Qur'an math-illiteracy is demonstration of Muhammad's incapability to handle numbers. Muhammad cannot even seem to handle simple arithmetic.