• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

There is more then enough evidence to prove God exists.

Shad

Veteran Member
I am not trying to disprove God as I do not think it can be done at our current level. I am just pointing out errors in KCA. I understand that to you KCA is a proof for God and may take that my refutation of KCA is also a refutation of God. It is not. God is one of many possibilities. However none are backed by any sound argument. Only weak and strong invalid arguments.This is just not my opinion, these are valid objections taught in philosophy classes.


Well if you want to at least an rough idea of logic and philosophy check out a local collage or university. Many offer introduction level course for a high school level, it's a high school level here at least. These courses should be free or cheap. The issue you are having is fallacious arguments look good. They are easy to understand and comprehend. However once you start to understand fallacies you can spot them in arguments which makes the argument invalid and/or unsound. Hence why most of my replies are directing attacking a fallacious statement. No one is obligated to respond to a fallacious argument as these arguments are already invalid or unsound by using fallacies. Even Craig acknowledges P1 is a generalization in Craig and Smith 1993, 147, which a problem of induction. Thus by admitting this the KCA become a strong invalid argument. An argument with high probability but is not proven by it premises.
 
Last edited:

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I am not trying to disprove God as I do not think it can be done at our current level. I am just pointing out errors in KCA. I understand that to you KCA is a proof for God and may take that my refutation of KCA is also a refutation of God. It is not. God is one of many possibilities. However none are backed by any sound argument. Only weak and strong invalid arguments.This is just not my opinion, these are valid objections taught in philosophy classes.

What error do you refer to. "Everything that begins to exist has a cause" can you think of anything in the natural world that has began to exist without being caused to exist? A boat, a tree, a car or a human being. Please do not say QM as there is insufficient data on it to rule out causes that we have not, as yet, detected.

You just do not understand Christianity, do you? You prove that when you say " I understand that to you KCA is a proof for God" There can be no absolute proof of God, and I do not wish to be seen searching for it. " for It is a wicked and adulterous people who seeketh after a sign." If there were proof then the whole plan of Salvation would be destroyed, as we are supposed to be tried on our faith. Knowledge removes faith. I think KCA is circumstantial evidence and no more. A possibility, I do not want it to be more, however, enough circumstantial evidence will build a case without seeking after a sign or harming faith. It is just a bit of extra curriculum activity for fun. I have enjoyed it, but I never take these things too serious anyway, you see, I have a good working relationship with God so my testimony is rarely ever effected by the beliefs of non-believers. It matters more to science if it is right then it does to me if it is wrong. Why it is that science is adamant on being right, I can only assume, that is, that most scientists who object to it are Atheists who struggle to keep the foot of religion from getting in the door. There is no knock on effect to science, whether it is right or wrong. It is a past event. It is a "let's keep God out of science for as long as we can" scenario. That provokes dishonesty, especially from atheists like Bunyip, who surfs the waves of lies in order to stay standing on that firmly on that board.
 
Last edited:

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
What error do you refer to. "Everything that begins to exist has a cause" can you think of anything in the natural world that has began to exist without being caused to exist?

You just do not understand Christianity, do you? You prove that when you say " I understand that to you KCA is a proof for God" There can be no absolute proof of God. If there were the whole plan of Salvation would be destroyed as we are supposed to be tried on our faith. Knowledge removes faith. I think KCA is circumstantial evidence and no more. A possibility, I do not want it to be more, however, a enough circumstantial evidence will build a case without seeking after a sign or harming faith.

What have you observed that "started existing"? I certainly haven't. So upon that we are standing in baseless speculation while wrapped in our own ignorance of what the world would be like without our laws.

And I thought the title of the thread was "there was more than enough evidence for god".
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
What have you observed that "started existing"? I certainly haven't. So upon that we are standing in baseless speculation while wrapped in our own ignorance of what the world would be like without our laws.

My six children. That jolt that kick started all of them into existence. Anything that exists in a form that at one time did not exist, which is, pretty much everything. I hope you are not going down the road of coming into existence from nothing ex-nihilo as that has never happened and is illogical. From nothing, nothing comes. Everything in our universe has been created ex-materia. From something. Two words I never heard of until now, that is, ex-nihilo and ex-materia. I doubt if I will ever forget them either.

And I thought the title of the thread was "there was more than enough evidence for god".

Circumstantial evidence that when put together make a God more likely then not. That is the problem with a thread this size. I have said this several times in the thread but doubtless to say you have not read it. Not your fault, just the result of a long thread.
 
Last edited:

Shad

Veteran Member
What error do you refer to. "Everything that begins to exist has a cause" can you think of anything in the natural world that has began to exist without being caused to exist? A boat, a tree, a car or a human being. Please do not say QM as there is insufficient data on it to rule out causes that we have not, as yet, detected.

Since you have admitted twice that your have no formal education in philosophy and logic, have shown an inability to understand or absorb anything I have told you there is no point in continuing. You are not interested in an discussion, you want people to accept the argument as it validates your faith thus you want others to validate your faith for you. If you did not this thread and the KCA argument would be in the philosophy section not the religious section.

I understand Christianity very well, I have taken Biblical studies as part of my major, archaeology, for years. Before that I was a Christian for 2 decades. I am talking about you not about all of Christianity. And yes you are using KCA to prove God as circumstantial evidence is a form of proof which is used to prove if something is true or not, even if it is weak evidence.
 
Last edited:

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
How can you possibly know this? What is "nothing"? Can you test or observe "nothing"? Give me an example of "nothing".

How do I know that? My peers tell me and I believe them. They also tell me that nothing does not exist anywhere in the universe and even say that there may have not been nothing pre-BB, indeed we know that the singularity existed but they thing that it was more then that, so that would mean that" nothing" is a word without real meaning. Having said that, if nothing existed then nothing could come from it, but if it existed it would be short lived before nothing was filled with something.

A good source is

Through the Wormhole: Season 3, Episode 5
What Is Nothing? (27 Jun. 2012)

Can there be such a thing as nothing? Scientists are looking for answers in the mind-bending science of Quantum Mechanics. Their work may uncover what our cosmos is made of, how it came from nothing and when it might collapse into an empty void again.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
How do I know that? My peers tell me and I believe them.
That's not really a very good reason to believe something...

They also tell me that nothing does not exist anywhere in the universe and even say that there may have not been nothing pre-BB, indeed we know that the singularity existed but they thing that it was more then that, so that would mean that" nothing" is a word without real meaning.
Exactly. So how does the phrase "from nothing, nothing comes" make sense if you cannot accurately quantify, define or examine what "nothing" is?

Having said that, if nothing existed then nothing could come from it, but if it existed it would be short lived before nothing was filled with something.
But how do you know that? You've already said that "nothing does not exist in the Universe", so how can you make any claims whatsoever about what can or cannot come from it?

A good source is

Through the Wormhole: Season 3, Episode 5
What Is Nothing? (27 Jun. 2012)

Can there be such a thing as nothing? Scientists are looking for answers in the mind-bending science of Quantum Mechanics. Their work may uncover what our cosmos is made of, how it came from nothing and when it might collapse into an empty void again.
I'll take a look.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Since you have admitted twice that your have no formal education in philosophy and logic, have shown an inability to understand or absorb anything I have told you there is no point in continuing. You are not interested in an discussion, you want people to accept the argument as it validates your faith thus you want others to validate your faith for you. If you did not this thread and the KCA argument would be in the philosophy section not the religious section.

No, I have stated on many occasions that I have no formal education on philosophy and logic in this thread. I am educated though having three recognised qualification. I just see no point in advertising them as it would be elitist and arrogant.

You have demonstrated a domineering attitude that can cause poor judgement and miss-information so I am sceptical as to your modus operandi. You have not lived but you have not told the whole truth either. Your description of my faith is just simply wrong or a poor diagnosis from an amateur physiotherapists. I need no validation to my faith. I am looking for honesty in my responses rather then trickery and manipulations of my words. Anything that begins to exist has a cause. A simple statement that you are obliterating with unnecessary trickery. There is simply no case to answer as if the universe is full of something and so is the pre-BB then everything created will be as a result of reorganisation of something. Cause and effect.

You do not have to respond if you feel it a waste of your time. That is the last thing I want to do.

I understand Christianity very well, I have taken Biblical studies as part of my major, archaeology, for years. Before that I was a Christian for 2 decades. I am talking about you not about all of Christianity. And yes you are using KCA to prove God as circumstantial evidence is a form of proof which is used to prove if something is true or not, even if it is weak evidence.

You might understand the bible academically but you do not feel it or know why it exists. You know very little about the plan of Salvation and you have not received baptism by water and by the spirit of God who testify of truth. How do I know that. You are a non-believer.

You are doing it again, dissecting the meaning of every word to disprove my belief and cast aspersions on my character. Circumstantial evidence is not fact. It is fact that I do not want, or don't expect to find. But you know what I meant, you are just being pernickety intentionally. From the onset of this discussion your mind was closed and your opinions fixed. I should have been more astute and picked up on it sooner. It was inevitable that it would end up with the atheist accusing the Christian of being thick and a waste of space as a human. It always happens regardless as to who the atheist is or who the Christian is. Watch Lawrence Krauss, he is an expert at it. Forum atheists tend to just be angry so they bash Christians, but that is for another thread
 
Last edited:

cottage

Well-Known Member
A quick recap here on the Kalam argument.

When theists speak of “evidence of God” invariably this argument is cited. And I’m slightly at a loss to know why but I suspect it’s because it is naïvely plausible, initially. The Kalam has been made popular by a modern advocate of the argument, William Lane Craig, who begins his debates with cosmological arguments, which I believe folk are watching on Youtube or similar. Although to be fair to him he doesn’t claim it to be beyond dispute. His purpose in using it is, in part, to defeat those sceptics who argue for an eternal universe or “multiverse” theories, and after quoting the Borde, Guth, and Valenkin, Past-Finite Universe study, he quickly moves away form the argument’s premises and on to the “infinity problem”.

But make no mistake, the argument is unsound!

Whatever begins to exist has a cause
The universe began to exist
The universe has a cause

The following demonstrates why the Kalam argument is unsound.

The primary premise contains an omission in what it sweepingly asserts. It can’t be said that anything or everything that begins to exist has a cause for that would be begging the question, because that is what the argument is supposed to prove in the case of the universe as a whole. Inferences can only be made from what actually exists.

So I’ve inserted the missing clause into the argument:

P1. Whatever begins to exist in the universe has a cause.

P2. The universe began to exist

Conclusion: The universe has a cause

Even with the inserted clause the primary premise (P1) is false. We don’t observe objects beginning to exist; we only see material objects that change their form. In all cases the new objects are formed from pre-existent matter. There is still the same amount of matter in the universe as there was prior to our observing the new object. The objects cannot therefore be described as beginning to exist in the way the argument misleadingly implies.

So the conclusion is arrived at by a false inference. And the argument would fail even if it were true that things in the universe began to exist, because it does not follow if objects that began to exist in the universe have a cause then the universe itself must have a cause. That is the Fallacy of Composition, where it is claimed that whatever is true of a part of an object is therefore true of the whole object. That would be like saying because it is known that an organ such as the liver can regenerate itself the human body as a whole can regenerate itself.

The fact is we cannot venture beyond the universe, and so we cannot assert that causal relations will exist outside the universe merely by inference from what we experience within the universe. And if causal relations can’t be established beyond our experience, then how can it be asserted that the universe is caused?

At the very most, all we can say is this:

1. The universe began to exist
2. Everything in the universe has a cause
C. Everything in the universe began to exist (including cause and effect)

If we accept #1 and #2 as above then the premises are valid and the argument is sound. But because the premises are derived inductively the argument even in this form can never be certain.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
No, I have stated on many occasions that I have no formal education on philosophy and logic in this thread. I am educated though having three recognised qualification. I just see no point in advertising them as it would be elitist and arrogant.

A mechanic is certified, this does not mean a mechanic is able to practice nor understand modern medicine. It is not arrogant or elitist to point out your lack of formal training is a disadvantage, you are just being emotional about it.


You have demonstrated a domineering attitude that can cause poor judgement and miss-information so I am sceptical as to your modus operandi. You have not lived but you have not told the whole truth either. Your description of my faith is just simply wrong or a poor diagnosis from an amateur physiotherapists. I need no validation to my faith. I am looking for honesty in my responses rather then trickery and manipulations of my words. Anything that begins to exist has a cause. A simple statement that you are obliterating with unnecessary trickery. There is simply no case to answer as if the universe is full of something and so is the pre-BB then everything created will be as a result of reorganisation of something. Cause and effect.
If you were honestly looking for responses you would not reject every response in presented to you which does not agree with you. You would not use special pleading, a fallacy, to exclude examples which refute KCA. Also I was stating my opinion of you and it is evident when you say in your own words you are looking at KCA as circumstantial evidence of God. If you were not looking for proof you would not be looking for circumstantial evidence. You have contradicted yourself.

No tricks, just what is known at this current time and presented here. KCA is an invalid but strong argument if put into a probability argument, induction is about probabilities. However probabilities fail to guarantee the conclusion of an argument. A hypothetical example

90% of Canadians are bilingual
Bob is a Canadian
Bob is bilingual

Now there is a 9 in 10 chance Bob is bilingual. However there is a 1 in 10 chance he is not. The argument can not guarantee the conclusion from the premises. QM provides a minor probability of KCA not being true.

You do not have to respond if you feel it a waste of your time. That is the last thing I want to do.
Pages ago I explained inductive logic as probability. Yet you responded with "The KCA is an argument based on inductive reasoning. It cannot be wrong. Let's look at it." It is this completely failure to read what I post, understand what I post and absorb what I post which leads me to the conclusion you have no idea what you are talking about. I have tried to explain some basic inductive logic to you but you have repeatedly failed to comprehend it.

An inductive argument is an argument that is intended by the arguer merely to establish or increase the probability of its conclusion. In an inductive argument, the premises are intended only to be so strong that, if they were true, then it would be unlikely that the conclusion is false. There is no standard term for a successful inductive argument. But its success or strength is a matter of degree, unlike with deductive arguments. A deductive argument is valid or else invalid.

Deductive and Inductive Arguments*[Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy]
You might understand the bible academically but you do not feel it or know why it exists. You know very little about the plan of Salvation and you have not received baptism by water and by the spirit of God who testify of truth. How do I know that. You are a non-believer.
The same could be said of every religion which you reject. This whole point is moot.

You are doing it again, dissecting the meaning of every word to disprove my belief as cast aspersions on my character. Circumstantial evidence is not fact. It is fact that I do not want. But you know what I meant you are just being pernickety intentionally. From then onset of this discussion your mind was closed and your opinions fixed. It was inevitable that it would end up with the atheist accusing the Christian of being thick and a waste of space as a human. It always happens regardless as to who the atheist is or who the Christian is. Watch Lawrence Krauss, he is an expert at it. Forum atheists tend to just be angry so they bash Christians, but that is for another thread
Words have meaning, words have definitions, words have context based definition. If you are unable to express yourself well or to use proper terminology this is your problem not mine. I also could accuse you of the same. Kettle met Pot.

If you present arguments which make you look foolish, misunderstand the basic different between inductive and deductive reasoning and admit you know nothing about logic what to do expect? It is you making yourself look foolish, I am just pointing it out.

You could be well educated in engineering, you could show aptitude in this field and you could be an expert in this field. This does not mean your abilities in one field transfers to logic nor philosophy especially without formal training.
 
Last edited:

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
A quick recap here on the Kalam argument.


This is the last post that I am making on this subject. We are going around in circles so I am beginning to not enjoy it so much

Let's set some parameters.

1. There is no such thing as nothing in our universe. Where ever we look we will find something whether it be quantum sub-automic particles or standard elements.

2. The standard cosmological model has successfully determined that there was a singularity that was inconceivable dense and dimensionally microscopic.

3. The Big Bang is a excepted event that took place 13.7 billion years ago.

4. The word "create" is defined in several dictionaries as "bringing into existence", therefore, for clarity, we can replace "begins to exist" with created, as follows. Everything that is created has a cause.

5. Cause is defined as

cause

1. a person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition. "the cause of the accident is not clear"

synonyms: source, root, origin, beginning(s), starting point, seed, germ, genesis, agency, occasion; mainspring, base, basis, foundation, bottom, seat; originator, author, creator, producer, agent, prime mover, maker; fons et origo; literaryfountainhead, wellspring, fount, begetter; rareradix

6. Everything is defined as

everything

1. all things. "they did everything together"
synonyms: each item, each thing, every article, every single thing, the lot, the whole lot, the entirety, the total, the aggregate; all;

7. Everything includes the universe, a chair, a tree, a car, a human being. Everything that exists.

8. It is a possible that cause and effect can occur simultaneously at t=0 at which time the laws of the universe would have began to exist, including cause and effect.

9. Element cannot be created or destroyed. It is eternal in nature and would have existed within the singularity as dense element.

10. Ex-nihilo is a logical fallacy as "nothing" does not exist. Ex-materia is witnessed everywhere in the universe

11. A chair is created from elements that have always existed.

12. The big bang created the universe from something, the singularity.

In addition, it is very likely that because quantum sub-automic particles are not effected by time or distance it is conceivable that it existed pre-BB this is essential as it means that "nothing" cannot exist in our universe or in the pre-BB either. Something exists everywhere.

1. Everything that is created has a cause.

(a) Everything is defined as all things that exist, as in parameter 6.
(b) Create is to bring into existence, as in parameter 4.
(c) Cause is the Genesis of effect, as in parameter 5.

A chair is part of everything. It was created by using element that has always existed. It was caused to exist by the chair maker. All parameters have been met, therefore, the premise is correct. It is as simple as that.

2. The universe began to exist.

Where there was a singularity there is now a universe. It began to exist after the Big Bang.

3. Therefore the universe has a cause.

Self explanatory. No logical fallacies or philosophies to argue over. Just simple common sense.


When theists speak of “evidence of God” invariably this argument is cited. And I’m slightly at a loss to know why but I suspect it’s because it is naïvely plausible, initially. The Kalam has been made popular by a modern advocate of the argument, William Lane Craig, who begins his debates with cosmological arguments, which I believe folk are watching on Youtube or similar. Although to be fair to him he doesn’t claim it to be beyond dispute. His purpose in using it is, in part, to defeat those sceptics who argue for an eternal universe or “multiverse” theories, and after quoting the Borde, Guth, and Valenkin, Past-Finite Universe study, he quickly moves away form the argument’s premises and on to the “infinity problem”.

KCA is not beyond dispute but it is not false either.

But make no mistake, the argument is unsound!

And that remark only means that we will continue going around in circles. Debate is therefore futile.

Whatever begins to exist has a cause
The universe began to exist
The universe has a cause

The following demonstrates why the Kalam argument is unsound.

And that remark only means that we will continue going around in circles. Debate is therefore futile.

The primary premise contains an omission in what it sweepingly asserts. It can’t be said that anything or everything that begins to exist has a cause for that would be begging the question, because that is what the argument is supposed to prove in the case of the universe as a whole. Inferences can only be made from what actually exists.

Nothing in our universe comes into existence uncaused. Even in Quantum mechanics just because we do not see a cause does not mean there isn't one. The Higgs boson could not be seen or found but the effect was there. The same principle may apply. No one knows. We have no reason to believe that and effect could be uncaused. There is no presidents for it, indeed, it goes against known natural laws that came into being at the same time as the big bang was caused. It is a supernatural effect as nowhere in nature can it be found.

So I’ve inserted the missing clause into the argument:

P1. Whatever begins to exist in the universe has a cause.

P2. The universe began to exist

Conclusion: The universe has a cause

If you want to write it like this then fine. I am not objecting as it means the same thing.

Even with the inserted clause the primary premise (P1) is false. We don’t observe objects beginning to exist; we only see material objects that change their form. In all cases the new objects are formed from pre-existent matter. There is still the same amount of matter in the universe as there was prior to our observing the new object. The objects cannot therefore be described as beginning to exist in the way the argument misleadingly implies.

We observe objects coming into existence everyday, especially in the manufacturing industry. All that exists comes from element, element is eternal in nature. The manufacturering industry use elements everyday to make worldly goods, that we don't really need, as much as we want. From element a car in created ex-materia.

The argument of the amount of matter remaining constant is a non sequitur. If it were to change every time that something is created then the creation must needs be from nothing. As it is fromIt existing element the universal matter content will remain constant. The matter contained on earth did not increase when I was borne because I have been created, like Adam and Eve, from the dust of the ground, element. I do not see how you can dispute that. Everything is created by element and element has always existed. The creation comes when element is used to construct, in the physical world, or to build, in the natural world.
 
Last edited:

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
The Kalam cosmological argument in a nutshell;

Everything that begins to exist except god, must have a cause.

The universe began to exist.

Therefore god.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
If event A and event B are simultaneous how you can tell which is the cause and which is the event? Also a singularity is not an event so keep this in mind.

Since you said a the singularity contain "Elements" as ex-materia, this ex-materia could have become temporal thus is uncaused. Toss in simultaneous causation of QM, QF and QG. Bingo no need for an external cause

Also since we are making up things such as simultaneous causation why not backwards causation or as above self-causation.
 
Last edited:

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
If event A and event B are simultaneous how you can tell which is the cause and which is the event? Also a singularity is not an event so keep this in mind.

Since you said a the singularity contain "Elements" as ex-materia, this ex-materia could have become temporal thus is uncaused. Toss in simultaneous causation of QM, QF and QG. Bingo no need for an external cause

Also since we are making up things such as simultaneous causation why not backwards causation or as above self-causation.

Made up, you say. Post 2716. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3925161-post2716.html

Grünbaum's objection is pretty clearly a pseudo-dilemma. For he fails to consider the obvious alternative that the cause of the Big Bang operated at to, that is, simultaneously (or coincidentally1) with the Big Bang. Philosophical discussions of causal directionality routinely treat simultaneous causation, the question being how to distinguish A as the cause and B as the effect when these occur together at the same time [Dummett and Flew (1954); Mackie (1966); Suchting (1968-69); Brier (1974), pp. 91-98; Brand (1979)].2 Even on a mundane level, we regularly experience simultaneous causation; to borrow an example from Kant, a heavy ball's resting on a cushion being the cause of a depression in that cushion. 3 Indeed, some philosophers argue that all efficient causation is simultaneous, for if the causal conditions sufficient for some event E were present prior to the time t of E's occurrence, then E would happen prior to t; similarly if the causal conditions for E were to vanish at t after having existed at tn < t, then E would not occur at t. In any case, there seems to be no conceptual difficulty in saying that the cause of the origin of the universe acted simultaneously (or coincidentally) with the origination of the universe. We should therefore say that the cause of the origin of the universe is causally prior to the Big Bang, though not temporally prior to the Big Bang. In such a case, the cause may be said to exist spacelessly and timelessly sans the universe, but temporally subsequent to the moment of creation

3 It would be in vain to object to the proposed solution that simultaneous causation is impossible due to the finite velocity of the propagation of physical causal influences, for (i) the objection fails to reckon with the fact that remote causes are linked by causal chains to the immediate causes of the events in question, such that for any arbitrarily chosen non-zero interval of time in which the event occurs simultaneously with its cause, one can denominate non-zero subintervals in which remote, intermediate, and immediate causes can be identified in the causal chain, with the result that simultaneous causation is never eliminated, and (ii) the objection is irrelevant to the case of creation, since God is not a physical object dependent upon finite velocity causal signals, but, as one who transcends space, is immediately present through His knowledge and power to every point in space (or on its boundary).

Read more: Creation and Big Bang Cosmology | Reasonable Faith
 
Last edited:

Shad

Veteran Member
Being present at the same time does not imply simultaneous causation. This can be a casual condition. Since information is limited by spatial location and a finite speed, cause and effect can not be occurring within the same space-time reference, t=1. Rather due to information lag the cause t=1 is have an effect at t=2. The appearance of simulation causation is thus false as it is a sensory illusion. You and Craig are confused due to not understanding the finite speed which information is transmitted from one point to another due GRE. To have a infinite speed is incoherent as an object could move from one spatial location to another instantaneously at any place in the universe. This violates GRE and modern physics. You are just repeating Craig's claim without providing a reason why I should accept it. Give me an example.

The link didn't work properly as a part of the quote is attached. If you example was the mountain and valley this is an example of event-causation within temporal-causation. Object 1 is still displacing material from object 2 which is information. See above why this is a failed example


Since you have failed to provide an example of simultaneous causation Craig quote is meaningless. You have not established sufficient reason to accept (SC) so I have no reason to accept Craig argument nor his hypothetical example. By violating space-time limitation the basics of the your KCA is a fallacy of composition, begging the question and metaphysical magic.
 
Last edited:

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
No, I have stated on many occasions that I have no formal education on philosophy and logic in this thread. I am educated though having three recognised qualification. I just see no point in advertising them as it would be elitist and arrogant.

You have demonstrated a domineering attitude that can cause poor judgement and miss-information so I am sceptical as to your modus operandi. You have not lived but you have not told the whole truth either. Your description of my faith is just simply wrong or a poor diagnosis from an amateur physiotherapists. I need no validation to my faith. I am looking for honesty in my responses rather then trickery and manipulations of my words. Anything that begins to exist has a cause. A simple statement that you are obliterating with unnecessary trickery. There is simply no case to answer as if the universe is full of something and so is the pre-BB then everything created will be as a result of reorganisation of something. Cause and effect.

You do not have to respond if you feel it a waste of your time. That is the last thing I want to do.



You might understand the bible academically but you do not feel it or know why it exists. You know very little about the plan of Salvation and you have not received baptism by water and by the spirit of God who testify of truth. How do I know that. You are a non-believer.

You are doing it again, dissecting the meaning of every word to disprove my belief and cast aspersions on my character. Circumstantial evidence is not fact. It is fact that I do not want, or don't expect to find. But you know what I meant, you are just being pernickety intentionally. From the onset of this discussion your mind was closed and your opinions fixed. I should have been more astute and picked up on it sooner. It was inevitable that it would end up with the atheist accusing the Christian of being thick and a waste of space as a human. It always happens regardless as to who the atheist is or who the Christian is. Watch Lawrence Krauss, he is an expert at it. Forum atheists tend to just be angry so they bash Christians, but that is for another thread

You have said this to just about everybody in this entire thread.

:rolleyes:
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
This is the last post that I am making on this subject. We are going around in circles so I am beginning to not enjoy it so much

Let's set some parameters.

1. There is no such thing as nothing in our universe. Where ever we look we will find something whether it be quantum sub-automic particles or standard elements.

2. The standard cosmological model has successfully determined that there was a singularity that was inconceivable dense and dimensionally microscopic.

3. The Big Bang is a excepted event that took place 13.7 billion years ago.

4. The word "create" is defined in several dictionaries as "bringing into existence", therefore, for clarity, we can replace "begins to exist" with created, as follows. Everything that is created has a cause.

5. Cause is defined as

cause

1. a person or thing that gives rise to an action, phenomenon, or condition. "the cause of the accident is not clear"

synonyms: source, root, origin, beginning(s), starting point, seed, germ, genesis, agency, occasion; mainspring, base, basis, foundation, bottom, seat; originator, author, creator, producer, agent, prime mover, maker; fons et origo; literaryfountainhead, wellspring, fount, begetter; rareradix

6. Everything is defined as

everything

1. all things. "they did everything together"
synonyms: each item, each thing, every article, every single thing, the lot, the whole lot, the entirety, the total, the aggregate; all;

7. Everything includes the universe, a chair, a tree, a car, a human being. Everything that exists.

8. It is a possible that cause and effect can occur simultaneously at t=0 at which time the laws of the universe would have began to exist, including cause and effect.

9. Element cannot be created or destroyed. It is eternal in nature and would have existed within the singularity as dense element.

10. Ex-nihilo is a logical fallacy as "nothing" does not exist. Ex-materia is witnessed everywhere in the universe

11. A chair is created from elements that have always existed.

12. The big bang created the universe from something, the singularity.

In addition, it is very likely that because quantum sub-automic particles are not effected by time or distance it is conceivable that it existed pre-BB this is essential as it means that "nothing" cannot exist in our universe or in the pre-BB either. Something exists everywhere.

1. Everything that is created has a cause.

(a) Everything is defined as all things that exist, as in parameter 6.
(b) Create is to bring into existence, as in parameter 4.
(c) Cause is the Genesis of effect, as in parameter 5.

A chair is part of everything. It was created by using element that has always existed. It was caused to exist by the chair maker. All parameters have been met, therefore, the premise is correct. It is as simple as that.

2. The universe began to exist.

Where there was a singularity there is now a universe. It began to exist after the Big Bang.

3. Therefore the universe has a cause.

Self explanatory. No logical fallacies or philosophies to argue over. Just simple common sense.




KCA is not beyond dispute but it is not false either.



And that remark only means that we will continue going around in circles. Debate is therefore futile.



And that remark only means that we will continue going around in circles. Debate is therefore futile.



Nothing in our universe comes into existence uncaused. Even in Quantum mechanics just because we do not see a cause does not mean there isn't one. The Higgs boson could not be seen or found but the effect was there. The same principle may apply. No one knows. We have no reason to believe that and effect could be uncaused. There is no presidents for it, indeed, it goes against known natural laws that came into being at the same time as the big bang was caused. It is a supernatural effect as nowhere in nature can it be found.



If you want to write it like this then fine. I am not objecting as it means the same thing.



We observe objects coming into existence everyday, especially in the manufacturing industry. All that exists comes from element, element is eternal in nature. The manufacturering industry use elements everyday to make worldly goods, that we don't really need, as much as we want. From element a car in created ex-materia.

The argument of the amount of matter remaining constant is a non sequitur. If it were to change every time that something is created then the creation must needs be from nothing. As it is fromIt existing element the universal matter content will remain constant. The matter contained on earth did not increase when I was borne because I have been created, like Adam and Eve, from the dust of the ground, element. I do not see how you can dispute that. Everything is created by element and element has always existed. The creation comes when element is used to construct, in the physical world, or to build, in the natural world.


Of course we see objects coming into existence everyday – but only from or within already existent matter! You agree that matter doesn’t begin to exist in the universe but only changes its material form, as per the manufacturing examples you gave. But it is self-contradictory to say “elements are eternal in nature”. Everything in nature is contingent and finite, and therefore matter cannot be eternal, and also would involve an infinite regress of causes, which is absurd. It is this, the perennial infinity problem that nullifies any proposal of eternally existing matter.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Is it permissible to ask where God came from?

Science can postulate the existence of many universes. Our universe caused by a prior one. Still model goes back to a time where there was nothing. So whether the first universe came from nothing or God came from nothing to create this one.

Science doesn't have an answer of something from nothing anymore then religious belief. That doesn't provide proof for God any more then not having a cause for God proves it was possible for the universe came from nothing.

Actually since it is a matter of a lack of knowledge both could be equally wrong.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
My six children. That jolt that kick started all of them into existence. Anything that exists in a form that at one time did not exist, which is, pretty much everything. I hope you are not going down the road of coming into existence from nothing ex-nihilo as that has never happened and is illogical. From nothing, nothing comes. Everything in our universe has been created ex-materia. From something. Two words I never heard of until now, that is, ex-nihilo and ex-materia. I doubt if I will ever forget them either.
It depends on what you mean by "created". They were "arranged" from pre-existing material. They didn't pop into being. We still haven't observed something "coming into existence" and that is an important distinction to make.


Circumstantial evidence that when put together make a God more likely then not. That is the problem with a thread this size. I have said this several times in the thread but doubtless to say you have not read it. Not your fault, just the result of a long thread.
Perhaps but I haven't seen a single point stick so far. Do you have a basic rundown of the evidences you feel makes god "more likely" ?
 
Top