There is more then enough evidence to prove God exists.

[Robert.Evans]

explanationpower and predictive modeling as well as hard evidence. Also nothing magical, but gradual through environmental pressures.

But you don't seem to understand that you have to accept that everything is natural and will indeed do what it does. Why? Where does it come from? Is that luck? Does luck have to make processes that bring about order? We have predictive modelling through the fractal nature of God. All things follow that. But I don't want to get side tracked here.

You seem to be giving processes the job of mind. They are artificial intelligence. They take things random to a non-random state so taht we can argue about it.. haha

 

[LuisDantas]

Thank you...now you will tell me it was a joke, haha

Sorry, no cigar. I mean it.

But that makes all things natural.

Not all things. Just those that were not deliberately sought.

So whatever the primordial energy is, that makes the multiverse/universe, it is natural. So what then is natural? How is that different than saying everything is God? It appears to me that the argument is that it must come from luck. It does not appear to be much of an argument

Sure, if you take as a premise that the universe was meant to be, then in essence nothing is natural, but rather designed by God.

I think that just empties the concept of God of any meaning, though.

will give you an example: on TV two women, a presenter and a scientist, were looking at shells (or something) The one said, Isn't that amazing. How on earth has that come about, (or words to that effect). The scientific reply was, (yes you guessed it) Its natural. That seemed to be a good enough answer for the other woman, and they walking on.
Tell me what she had said?
Why not just say God did it?

For one, because that is not at all an explanation. For another, because it hints at a purpose when there is no evidence of any.

Sure, just saying that something is natural is not an explanation either, although it does imply that there was no purpose involved in a happening.

What use is an explanation like natural did it, if all things are natural?

Not all things are natural. Some happen because some kind of purpose directed them or sought them.

 

[Sonofason]

Humans are the leading force behind the current extinction rate. We are altering the face of the planet. We are altering the weather patterns. WE can cause or increase earthquakes, We could at any point cause a nuclear winter. If that's not a force I don't know what is. I say natural because as stated above we are natural and occurred naturally. Like you said you can see how one would draw that conclusion, so what would you call that then?
I wouldnt say e are under artificial l selection considering we aren't doing any selecting at all. Most live and most breed. traits are not being selected be either natural processes or by our own intellect. To me, that's no selection.

I doubt the chickens are gratfull. They are inable to live wildly. We kill of most of the male chicks, and pumping out that many eggs is terrible burden for their bodies.

But the problem I see with what you are saying is that genetic mutations are still occurring, aren't they? The difference being that the process of natural selection hasn't been felt. Natural selection doesn't occur over night. I doubt it has a chance to have any affect even over periods of hundreds of years. It could be that the process is moving forward without us, and is soon to catch up. Once that one vaccine isn't manufactured, billions of people die all of the sudden, and then you see natural selection. It never stopped.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Do you know anything at all about climate science? are you aware of the cycle nature of warming and cooling that happens? Do you know how many mass extinctions their are? Do you know what happens when the slate is wiped clean so to speak> Are you aware of how life competes to survive against other life? Competes to breed? ETC?

You are explaining physical processes... that I have no problem with. that is science.

I want to know what is natural. How can a primordial energy change form into whatever, to eventually become a singularity of the big bang with all the right ingredients in it to make everything we see. That is luck. Luck brings about eventually some sort of order. How? If it were luck, why would it not just keep making chaos. How could it order it? How could all these processes (false intelligence) come about to make non randomness?

I am not saying that these physical processes are not right, I am asking how it is that they come about in the first place. Is it luck???

 

[Robert.Evans]

Sorry, no cigar. I mean it.



Not all things. Just those that were not deliberately sought.

Now I think you are changing the meaning of the word natural. Now you also mean man made. correct?
I think that is a little naughty, sir, haha

 

[Iti oj]

Your bascialy saying i know absolutely nothing, teach my physics, teach me climate science, teach me environmental science, teach me geology, teach me paleontology, teach me biology, teach me evolution biology, and probably more sciences besides that. You have also constructed a strawmen that you seem unwilling to dismantle to gain any real knowledge.


What is an environment?

 

[Sonofason]

For arguments sake, let us look at it this way: if one is to say there is no God, then everything is called 'natural'. What then is the difference on something outside of 'us' changing us, or 'us' doing it 'artificially'? If all things are natural, where is the distinction?

And if it is not natural, then what is it? If it is the consciousness of God, I see then a difference, but without it, I see natural working on natural on a natural way... naturally! How does that then make sense? What is the difference in saying God did it?

For some reason human beings have it in their heads that they are special. They like to set themselves above and apart from everything else. Thus we are not natural creatures. We're something special. We're more like gods.

 

[LuisDantas]

But I still have no idea what is meant by this mystical magical power of the word natural. It appears it is all luck to me.

There is no mystical/magical power. Natural selection is guided by environmental circunstances. It does not "want" things to happen; things just happen as they can, subject to the restrictions and advantages that beings happen to find themselves with.

In a sense it is luck, but in another it is just the effect of how their surroundings are. Factors such as the availability of shelter and food, or the presence of specific predators favor some variations over others.

 

[LuisDantas]

Now I think you are changing the meaning of the word natural. Now you also mean man made. correct?
I think that is a little naughty, sir, haha

You are, not me.

 

[Iti oj]

You are explaining physical processes... that I have no problem with. that is science.

I want to know what is natural. How can a primordial energy change form into whatever, to eventually become a singularity of the big bang with all the right ingredients in it to make everything we see. That is luck. Luck brings about eventually some sort of order. How? If it were luck, why would it not just keep making chaos. How could it order it? How could all these processes (false intelligence) come about to make non randomness?

I am not saying that these physical processes are not right, I am asking how it is that they come about in the first place. Is it luck???

So god of the gaps argument. The field of science studying that is in its infancy. ALso primordial energy? as far as we know the singularity was, Big bang, and thats when we can start answering questions currently. You keep saying luck vs design. I just don't understand the question or point. The universe doesn't exist, as it exist for us. We exist, as e exist because the universe is as it is. Maybe thats luck, but we keep and will keep explaining more and more of that luck.

 

[LuisDantas]

For some reason human beings have it in their heads that they are special. They like to set themselves above and apart from everything else. Thus we are not natural creatures. We're something special. We're more like gods.

Maybe so, but what is being discussed here is something else. Namely, whether there is in practice any difference between artificial and natural happenings.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Your bascialy saying i know absolutely nothing, teach my physics, teach me climate science, teach me environmental science, teach me geology, teach me paleontology, teach me biology, teach me evolution biology, and probably more sciences besides that. You have also constructed a strawmen that you seem unwilling to dismantle to gain any real knowledge.


What is an environment?

If you are talking to me, I have, as already said, no problem with the physical sciences.
I want to know what the word natural is, IF everything is natural. You use the word process, and yet that is an artificial intelligence smuggled in, which has come about thorugh luck.

 

[Robert.Evans]

There is no mystical/magical power. Natural selection is guided by environmental circunstances. It does not "want" things to happen; things just happen as they can, subject to the restrictions and advantages that beings happen to find themselves with.

Exactly. so luck I think so far...

In a sense it is luck,

Lo and behold, you come to the same conclusion.

but in another it is just the effect of how their surroundings are.

but what brings about those 'factors'. Yet another word that is brought in to explain natural luck

Factors such as the availability of shelter and food,

Ok, so how and why did they evolve as such? Luck? And if you explain them, and then further back, are you not going to get to a position that everything is just luck? I am thinking further back than evolution

or the presence of specific predators favor some variations over others.

as above.

 

[Robert.Evans]

There is no mystical/magical power. .

If it is not magical, now does it produce a big bang? What is the energy that produces and IS everything?

 

[Sonofason]

I stand unconvinced on that particular point. You shouldn't sell yourself so short.




Natural is that what happens without having been meant to or designed to happen.



In insisting that there is room (or need) for an explanation you are in effect denying that it can be natural.

I wonder, can nature design DNA, a blueprint for a life form?

 

[Robert.Evans]

So god of the gaps argument.

No sir

The field of science studying that is in its infancy. ALso primordial energy? as far as we know the singularity was, Big bang, and thats when we can start answering questions currently.

theoretical science would disagree, and with give good reasons why
[/QUOTE]
You keep saying luck vs design. I just don't understand the question or point.
[/QUOTE]
therein is the problem I think. If I build a house with intelligence, it will probably be better than one built without. Would you not say?
How would I build it without? I would have to make some kind of 'processes' that would 'artificially' build it for me. Luck is not going to do it, it is too complex, and that is just a house.

The universe doesn't exist, as it exist for us. We exist, as e exist because the universe is as it is. Maybe thats luck, but we keep and will keep explaining more and more of that luck.

Ok. So all things, ultimately, are luck then. Is that right? Whatever processes come up, they come about by luck. Yes?

 

[LuisDantas]

I wonder, can nature design DNA, a blueprint for a life form?

It did.

 

[LuisDantas]

If it is not magical, now does it produce a big bang? What is the energy that produces and IS everything?

If you take as a premise that anything that happens must have been meant to happen, then I suppose you will see sense in those questions.

One does not have to.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Maybe so, but what is being discussed here is something else. Namely, whether there is in practice any difference between artificial and natural happenings.

haha... there you go again with that word. And what is the 'aritifical' we are speaking of? i am not speaking of anything artificial. I wish to know what 'natural' is, and how it can be an answer to everything. It appears to me it is luck first, and then artificial intelligence which we call luck (perhaps that is what you mean.. perhaps not)

 

[LuisDantas]

haha... there you go again with that word. And what is the 'aritifical' we are speaking of? i am not speaking of anything artificial. I wish to know what 'natural' is, and how it can be an answer to everything. It appears to me it is luck first, and then artificial intelligence which we call luck (perhaps that is what you mean.. perhaps not)

Actually, taking what you say at face value, one must conclude that you do not believe there is such a thing as natural happenings; everything is in fact artificial.

You either have or are for whatever reason pretending to have a very bad case of projection of purpose.