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There is more then enough evidence to prove God exists.

outhouse

Atheistically
why is it still called the THEORY of Evolution and not the FACT of Evolution

This is admitting your completely ignorant to the science.


It is a fact :facepalm:

That is what it takes to become a scientific theory.


IAP - IAP Statement on the Teaching of Evolution

We agree that the following evidence-based facts about the origins and evolution of the Earth and of life on this planet have been established by numerous observations and independently derived experimental results from a multitude of scientific disciplines. Even if there are still many open questions about the precise details of evolutionary change, scientific evidence has never contradicted these results:
•In a universe that has evolved towards its present configuration for some 11 to 15 billion years, our Earth formed approximately 4.5 billion years ago.
•Since its formation, the Earth – its geology and its environments – has changed under the effect of numerous physical and chemical forces and continues to do so.
•Life appeared on Earth at least 2.5 billion years ago. The evolution, soon after, of photosynthetic organisms enabled, from at least 2 billion years ago, the slow transformation of the atmosphere to one containing substantial quantities of oxygen. In addition to the release of the oxygen that we breathe, the process of photosynthesis is the ultimate source of fixed energy and food upon which human life on the planet depends.
•Since its first appearance on Earth, life has taken many forms, all of which continue to evolve, in ways which palaeontology and the modern biological and biochemical sciences are describing and independently confirming with increasing precision. Commonalities in the structure of the genetic code of all organisms living today, including humans, clearly indicate their common primordial origin.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Continued

If you are psychologically disposed to believe in God then of course you will defend your beliefs to the hilt.

No, I defend my faith because it is true. If it were not then I would not be here having fun and enjoying your challenges to my beliefs. Now if I was sceptical I would not be enjoying it so much.

Religious faith isn’t a static or passive thing but must be continually worked at if it is to hold up.

Not when a level is reached, like the converting power of the Holy Ghost testifying of that which is true. Then there is no denying or going back.

And you are misapplying the argument from ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam). You cannot assume some truth that exists from faith and then accuse sceptics of being ignorant of what cannot be demonstrated.

What can be demonstrated in religion. If that were true then faith would, once again, be obsolete. If you want to debate matters relating to religion then do so from knowledge and not from ignorance.

An argument from ignorance is the fallacy where a proposition is claimed to be true because it has not been proven false (or false because it has not been proven true) for example: “Just because you are ignorant of the great plan of Salvation doesn’t mean such a plan doesn’t exist.” If that is the case being made then anything can be said to be true of anything.

You are arguing from ignorance. You lack religious knowledge so you say that my beliefs are spurious because you do not understand them or even know they exist.

Also a “trial of faith” can only be something ordained by an autocratic god with the ultimate goal of recognition and fealty; and a god that wants to be served and glorified has anthropomorphic needs and wants, which is absurd if we’re talking about a supposedly Supreme Being.

It was our choice, it was not compelled.

It is a summary of this debate. I said: “With each response you weaken God further by throwing anything and everything into the argument, regardless of coherency or logical absurdities”. There are several examples in your post that I’m responding to here.

That is your opinion. I have corrected you on many misrepresentations here without quipping about it. It is therefore hypocritical to accuse me of being incoherent and absurd in reciting the beliefs of Christians for it is not me you insult but every Christian with these beliefs, and, of course God. God will not be mocked.

Let me spell it out. The definition of the God of classical theism, the one I debate, is pretty much the same in every dictionary and described as the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, benevolent creator etc.

That is true.

But the term “supreme” means greatest in every respect. And I’ve shown that the God of classical theism certainly is not the greatest possible being. And the evidence we see in the world with own our eyes is also testament to that.

The evidence we see with our eyes is the result of man's agency.

A Supreme Being, as defined in most dictionaries, means God, which makes this untrue.

So if he is a non-interventionist God then he cannot self-evidently be all-loving or benevolent. And there is no substantive difference between a God that never intervenes and no God at all.

Why can't he be all-loving and benevolent.

The influence of the Holy Ghost intervenes on Gods behalf.
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
But if scientists have got it all nicely figgered out and neatly tied up in pretty pink ribbons, why is it still called the THEORY of Evolution and not the FACT of Evolution, to squash all doubts once and for all?
For example how exactly did the eyes transparent jelly suddenly appear out of nowhere?

Because there are no doubts. The theory of evolution is called so because it tries to explain the mechanisms (theory) that lead to evolution (fact).

There are no doubts about gravity either (I hope), but that does not prevent us from developing a theory of gravitation; that is, what are the mechanisms (theory) that underlie and explain gravitation (fact).

Or do you think that "theory of evolution" means that evolution is hypothetical? :) Well, in this case you must think that the theory of gravity entails that scientists think that gravity is hypothetical, too, lol.

But I am puzzled. In a previous post from another thread you claim that all modern Christians fully agree that evolution occurs. So, why are debating this basic stuff? Are you not a modern Christian?

Ciao

- viole
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
There is more than enough evidence that Serenity cherry picks what is accept causality or not.

Quantum physics does no such thing of the sort. Naturalistic laws do not apply to quantum sub-automic levels. That excludes cause and effect.

Refutes his own argument then moves the goal post in order to deny it.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
There is more than enough evidence that Serenity cherry picks what is accept causality or not.



Refutes his own argument then moves the goal post in order to deny it.

That would be true if it were my own argument, however, it was Bunyip that taught me this principle. Sorry.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Quantum physics does no such thing of the sort. Naturalistic laws do not apply to quantum sub-automic levels. That excludes cause and effect.

What? Naturalistic laws do not apply to quantum sub-automic levels?

Where did you get this from?

Ciao

- viole
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
What? Naturalistic laws do not apply to quantum sub-automic levels?

Where did you get this from?

Ciao

- viole

Where did I get that from? Didn't you read my post in which I said that Bunyip actually taught me that principle, and surprisingly, he is right.

So, you think you know different do you? "Where did I get that from" , insinuating it is rubbish and you know much better. Why not show us evidence that it does work. That would be interesting as I have posted evidence right here, in post 2611, showing that Bunyip is actually right. It is not that it does not work but that it is completely inaccurate. But please, prove me wrong.

Why are there different laws of physics if you look at a problem from the quantum level?

The quantum level is not about absolutes. It's about probabilities. As you move towards a larger scale, those probabilities create the illusion of absolutes, and, at some point, the probabilities are so constrained that they might as well be absolutes.

When one starts to do interpret the results of experiments and measurements involving molecules, atoms, and things smaller. One finds that these results do not obey the laws of classical mechanics, which work so well in our macroscopic world. Newtonian mechanics [classical mechanics] simply makes incorrect predictions. Some early examples are: the heat capacity of substances at low temperatures, the photoelectric effect, the electronic spectrum of the hydrogen atom. This is just a few examples from a long list of failures of classical mechanics on the atomic/molecular level.

CLASSICAL MECHANICS SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK FOR ATOMS AND MOLECULES. Quantum Laws

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00214.htm
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
That would be true if it were my own argument, however, it was Bunyip that taught me this principle. Sorry.

A principle which you put forward in one of your replies. You accepted this idea and concluded it was correct. Still this principle refutes P1 thus KCA is unsound and can be rejected. Thus either you reject KCA or wallow in your own illogical thoughts, ie cherry picking.

Your last post furthers the argument that P1 is a failure of inductive logic based on principles you have accepted. The more you comment the greater amount of arguments provided by you show P1 is false.
 
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Sapiens

Polymathematician
Some atheists say he never existed, and some say he did.
Wish they'd get their story straight..;)
You're changing the subject.

The straight story is that it is irrelevant and ranks with questions like number of angels who can dance on a pin heads' cranium, since there is not deity to have fathered him.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
A principle which you put forward in one of your replies. You accepted this idea and concluded it was correct. Still this principle refutes P1 thus KCA is unsound and can be rejected. Thus either you reject KCA or wallow in your own illogical thoughts, ie cherry picking.

Your last post furthers the argument that P1 is a failure of inductive logic based on principles you have accepted. The more you comment the greater amount of arguments provided by you show P1 is false.

Well, no, P1 Anything that begins to exist has a cause is correct.

For example, he says, “We’ve never seen something which doesn’t exist caused to begin existing. Things which don’t exist can’t be caused to ‘do’ anything, since they aren’t *there* to be influenced by a cause.” His first statement is patently false. Since at one time in the past you didn’t exist, it would follow from TBS’s principle that either (i) you came into being without a cause or (ii) you do not exist, both of which are absurd. (Yes, yes, I know that TBS says that a thing’s material constituents interact causally with one another; but on his view they do not stand in any causal relation with the thing itself, which therefore begins to exist uncaused.) You must have been caused to begin to exist (perhaps precisely by the prior interaction of your material constituents!). TBS’s argument against this alternative is nothing but a rehearsal of his same fallacious argument based on the assumption that causing something to begin to exist involves acting upon a non-existent object

Read more: Must Everything that Begins to Exist Have a Material Cause? | Reasonable Faith

I like this statement, it has opened my eyes to knew knowledge.

"Things which don’t exist can’t be caused to ‘do’ anything, since they aren’t *there* to be influenced by a cause.”

So what exactly was Kalam saying when he said that "anything that begins to exist has a cause". What he meant was that anything that has been created has a cause, which is the same as saying "begins to exist"

create
kriːˈeɪt/Submit
verb
past tense: created; past participle: created
1. bring (something) into existence."he created a thirty-acre lake"
2. to cause to come into existence

synonyms, design, bring into being, frame, form.

Meaning of the Word Create​
You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing, and they will answer, "Doesn't the Bible say He created the world?" And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end.

So, we could write that "Anything that is created has a cause", which is exactly the same as saying "Anything that begins to exist has a cause. To further confirm "Things which don’t exist can’t be caused to ‘do’ anything, since they aren’t *there* to be influenced by a cause.”, well, of course, so the singularity was caused to change into the universe. It was created and in all likelihood it was God who caused it. Kalam was never saying that the universe came into existence from nothing as from nothing comes nothing. Kalam was saying that the universe came into existence ex-materia. You learn something new everyday, don't you? That should effectively remedy your claims that premises P1 is very much proved and that we can then move straight onto P2 and the conclusion
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Where did I get that from? Didn't you read my post in which I said that Bunyip actually taught me that principle, and surprisingly, he is right.

So, you think you know different do you? "Where did I get that from" , insinuating it is rubbish and you know much better. Why not show us evidence that it does work. That would be interesting as I have posted evidence right here, in post 2611, showing that Bunyip is actually right. It is not that it does not work but that it is completely inaccurate. But please, prove me wrong.

Why are there different laws of physics if you look at a problem from the quantum level?

The quantum level is not about absolutes. It's about probabilities. As you move towards a larger scale, those probabilities create the illusion of absolutes, and, at some point, the probabilities are so constrained that they might as well be absolutes.

When one starts to do interpret the results of experiments and measurements involving molecules, atoms, and things smaller. One finds that these results do not obey the laws of classical mechanics, which work so well in our macroscopic world. Newtonian mechanics [classical mechanics] simply makes incorrect predictions. Some early examples are: the heat capacity of substances at low temperatures, the photoelectric effect, the electronic spectrum of the hydrogen atom. This is just a few examples from a long list of failures of classical mechanics on the atomic/molecular level.

CLASSICAL MECHANICS SIMPLY DOES NOT WORK FOR ATOMS AND MOLECULES. Quantum Laws

Quantum Laws

Yes, but how do you go from that to "naturalistic laws do not apply to quantum mechanics?". Classical mechanics does not work for relativity either, does that entail that naturalistic laws do not apply to relativity, either?

I think you are confusing naturalistic laws with classical mechanics. How so? Are the laws of relativity and quantum mechanics supernatural? :)

Ciao

- viole
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
Well, no, P1 Anything that begins to exist has a cause is correct.

False as virtual particles begin to exist and cease uncaused.



I like this statement, it has opened my eyes to knew knowledge.

"Things which don’t exist can’t be caused to ‘do’ anything, since they aren’t *there* to be influenced by a cause.”

So what exactly was Kalam saying when he said that "anything that begins to exist has a cause". What he meant was that anything that has been created has a cause, which is the same as saying "begins to exist"

Then it is up to you to prove the universe was created. This also changes the argument from KCA to another argument.

Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship.
Watchmaker fallacy

Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end.
This raises a few question which you can not answer. If there was "chaos matter" then God could be the product of this matter, not the creator of it. Also this suggest "chaos" space-time is greater than God as it is present. If it were not there would be no "chaos matter". Thus God is not greater than everything but is merely the greatest entity within a "chaos" reality which God is subject to.

Also this is from Joseph Smith who is not an philosopher nor physicist thus it is an argument from authority. I will also reject it as pseudo-philosophy, sophistry, it is.

So, we could write that "Anything that is created has a cause", which is exactly the same as saying "Anything that begins to exist has a cause.
Fallacy of equivocation


To further confirm "Things which don’t exist can’t be caused to ‘do’ anything, since they aren’t *there* to be influenced by a cause.”, well, of course, so the singularity was caused to change into the universe. It was created and in all likelihood it was God who caused it.
Unsupported speculation, ie leap of faith

Kalam was never saying that the universe came into existence from nothing as from nothing comes nothing. Kalam was saying that the universe came into existence ex-materia.
KCA say nothing about if it was matter, energy, consciousness, a time-travelling Dr Who. All is says it has a cause. Yet since P1 is false it fails in its argument.

You learn something new everyday, don't you? That should effectively remedy your claims that premises P1 is very much proved and that we can then move straight onto P2 and the conclusion
No it does not as I have linked evidence of uncaused events and objects. P1 is still false. Since P1 is false it is a non-sequitur to P2 and the conclusion. KCA is unsound and can be dismissed for this reason alone.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
You are confusing two things, an inferential argument that takes premises inductively from features in the world and a deductive argument that is demonstrably true purely to the premises being valid and sound. An inductive argument can still be unsound even if the premises are valid because nothing in experience can ever be certain, whereas a deductive argument such as the “Tom” example will always be true by definition, regardless of there being a “Tom” person.

So

A bachelor is an unmarried male entity
Darth Vader is not married
Darth Vader is a bachelor.

This is not a problem even though Darth Vader does not exist. OK.

No it isn’t necessary for any specific. Allow me to explain with an example by Rene Descartes, a theist philosopher (who himself proposed a version of the cosmological argument), who said: “…because I cannot conceive of a mountain without a valley it does not follow that there is any mountain in the world, or any valley, but only that the mountain and the valley, whether they exist or not, cannot be separated from one another.” Discourse on method and the meditations.
So, how do we know that there is always a valley by a mountain if no mountain or Valley exists. How would we know that the mountain i'r a high object that leaves valleys if we have never set eyes on one as none exist?

Equally, once a thing is defined then it cannot be other than the definition. If a bachelor is an unmarried man then that is the definition, regardless of any individual man.

Well, that is questionable. We can change the meanings of words.


We cannot venture outside the natural world. Newton’s laws apply to things within the natural world and cannot be used to give a cause to the world without asserting “All universes that exist are caused to exist”, a statement that no scientist could or would ever make because it is not empirically demonstrable (and nor is it a necessary truth).
Newton's laws on motion can only be confirmed to work in our world. So, in order for Newton's Laws to be responsible for the universe coming into being we have to look for a way that is possible. We have already gone through it in this thread but I see no reason why we cannot do it again.

Unfortunately, Grünbaum's objection is pretty clearly a pseudo-dilemma. For he fails to consider the obvious alternative that the cause of the Big Bang operated at to, that is, simultaneously (or coincidentally1) with the Big Bang. Philosophical discussions of causal directionality routinely treat simultaneous causation, the question being how to distinguish A as the cause and B as the effect when these occur together at the same time [Dummett and Flew (1954); Mackie (1966); Suchting (1968-69); Brier (1974), pp. 91-98; Brand (1979)].2 Even on a mundane level, we regularly experience simultaneous causation; to borrow an example from Kant, a heavy ball's resting on a cushion being the cause of a depression in that cushion.3 Indeed, some philosophers argue that all efficient causation is simultaneous, for if the causal conditions sufficient for some event E were present prior to the time t of E's occurrence, then E would happen prior to t; similarly if the causal conditions for E were to vanish at t after having existed at tn < t, then E would not occur at t. In any case, there seems to be no conceptual difficulty in saying that the cause of the origin of the universe acted simultaneously (or coincidentally) with the origination of the universe. We should therefore say that the cause of the origin of the universe is causally prior to the Big Bang, though not temporally prior to the Big Bang. In such a case, the cause may be said to exist spacelessly and timelessly sans the universe, but temporally subsequent to the moment of creation

Read more: Creation and Big Bang Cosmology | Reasonable Faith

Let me remind you that the Kalam argument says &#8220;Whatever begins to exist&#8221;. &#8220;Whatever&#8221; means &#8220;everything&#8221;, all matter, which includes the chair that was formed out of matter. But we&#8217;ve no experience of all matter beginning to exist and so the primary premise is false.

That is not true. kalams cosmological argument says "Anything that begins to exist has a cause.

I like this statement, it has opened my eyes to knew knowledge.

"Things which don&#8217;t exist can&#8217;t be caused to &#8216;do&#8217; anything, since they aren&#8217;t *there* to be influenced by a cause.&#8221;

So what exactly was Kalam saying when he said that "anything that begins to exist has a cause". What he meant was that anything that has been created has a cause, which is the same as saying "begins to exist"

create
kri&#720;&#712;e&#618;t/Submit
verb
past tense: created; past participle: created
1. bring (something) into existence."he created a thirty-acre lake"
2. to cause to come into existence

synonyms, design, bring into being, frame, form.

Meaning of the Word Create​
You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing, and they will answer, "Doesn't the Bible say He created the world?" And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos&#8212;chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end.

So, we could write that "Anything that is created has a cause", which is exactly the same as saying "Anything that begins to exist has a cause. To further confirm "Things which don&#8217;t exist can&#8217;t be caused to &#8216;do&#8217; anything, since they aren&#8217;t *there* to be influenced by a cause.&#8221;, well, of course, so the singularity was caused to change into the universe. It was created and in all likelihood it was God who caused it. Kalam was never saying that the universe came into existence from nothing as from nothing comes nothing. Kalam was saying that the universe came into existence ex-materia. You learn something new everyday, don't you? That should effectively remedy your claims that premises P1 is very much proved and that we can then move straight onto P2 and the conclusion

I thought you said you&#8217;d grasped the objection? Now I find you&#8217;re still begging the question! If matter is already existent and only changes form then it cannot be said to have begun to exist. So the only way to prove the truth of the proposition &#8220;whatever begins to exist has a cause&#8221; is to demonstrate the premise &#8221;The world has a cause&#8221;, and that cannot be demonstrated by reference to things existent within the world that simply change their form. Please tell me that you&#8217;ve got it now?

Oh, I have got it, only I do not think that you have it. See my previous response.
 

Serenity7855

Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
[ U=Shad;3925150]False as virtual particles begin to exist and cease uncaused.[/QUOTE]

You cannot prove that and if you link me to a pseudoscientific blog I will return the compliment with the same contradicting yours. You prove it in your words.

Then it is up to you to prove the universe was created. This also changes the argument from KCA to another argument.

I do not have to, the standard cosmological models does that very well. It shows us that there was a big bang and it shows us that the big bang came from the singularity. By the definition of the word create we can see that it was a creation from one state into another.

Watchmaker fallacy

How is that then?

This raises a few question which you can not answer. If there was "chaos matter" then God could be the product of this matter, not the creator of it.

Well, I will give it a go, you might be surprised. How do you work that out then. Chaos matter was the result of the big bang, or plasma during the early stages. God existed before the big bang so how could he be a product of it?

Also this suggest "chaos" space-time is greater than God as it is present. If it were not there would be no "chaos matter". Thus God is not greater than everything but is merely the greatest entity within a "chaos" reality which God is subject to.]

What? :shrug:

You are right, I could not answer the second part as I see no coherent question.

Also this is from Joseph Smith who is not an philosopher nor physicist thus it is an argument from authority. I will also reject it as pseudo-philosophy, sophistry, it is.

Well, that is not true, you need to check his creditors, but that is irrelevant. What is relevant is the words he has spoken and if those words are true. They are true so you rejection is based on an inability to answer my argument so you are evading the question.

Fallacy of equivocation

You like using these fallacies when you want to evade the issue, don't you? The fallacy of equivocation occurs when a key term or phrase in an argument is used in an ambiguous way, with one meaning in one portion of the argument and then another meaning in another portion of the argument. Please show me where this has happened in my post.


To further confirm "Things which don&#8217;t exist can&#8217;t be caused to &#8216;do&#8217; anything, since they aren&#8217;t *there* to be influenced by a cause.&#8221;, well, of course, so the singularity was caused to change into the universe. It was created and in all likelihood it was God who caused it.

Unsupported speculation, ie leap of faith

So, do you believe that objects can come into existence ex-nihilo. That is, like a chair coming into existence from nowhere, just popping into existence. If you can prove that then I will, retract my statement, I don't think you can do that so it is not a leap of faith to believe the universe was created ex-materia.

That God might have been the instigator of the event is speculation.

KCA say nothing about if it was matter, energy, consciousness, a time-travelling Dr Who. All is says it has a cause. Yet since P1 is false it fails in its argument.

Oh my, you are wriggling on this one. KCA does not say that it wasn't matter or energy either.

Despite the glaring evidence that clearly states that KCAs first premise can be nothing else but right you still try and argue the point. I am not going to keep repeating my self if you are to stubborn to see the truth.

No it does not as I have linked evidence of uncaused events and objects. P1 is still false. Since P1 is false it is a non-sequitur to P2 and the conclusion. KCA is unsound and can be dismissed for this reason alone.

It does not matter if it was caused or uncaused there was a change in state between the singularity and the big bang. Anything that begins to exist has a cause. The universe qualifies as anything, it has began to exist, therefore it has a cause. The universe was caused to exist. There was the singularity and in its place you will find the universe. The elements that came from that big bang was, at one time, in the singularity, so, it has existed for ever. We know that because it cannot be destroyed, therefore, if it has no end so there can be know beginning.

When you say "For this reason alone" you suggests that you are seeing your errors. You have linked me to someone's personal blog, not a reputable science Web site. .
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
So

A bachelor is an unmarried male entity
Darth Vader is not married
Darth Vader is a bachelor.

This is not a problem even though Darth Vader does not exist. OK.


So, how do we know that there is always a valley by a mountain if no mountain or Valley exists. How would we know that the mountain i'r a high object that leaves valleys if we have never set eyes on one as none exist?

My objection is not if Darth Vader exists or not. It is that P1 is false. Your example is a false comparison.

Well, that is questionable. We can change the meanings of words.

No if you propose an argument using a certain word with a certain meaning you can not change this meaning midway or after the fact. Nor you can you change the meaning of the word. This is a fallacy of equivocation and etymological fallacy.


Newton's laws on motion can only be confirmed to work in our world. So, in order for Newton's Laws to be responsible for the universe coming into being we have to look for a way that is possible. We have already gone through it in this thread but I see no reason why we cannot do it again.

Which has been updated by GR, SR and QT. Yes if you want to use a theory in a form which is out of date by a almost a century go ahead. It does nothing to prove your point.


Unfortunately, Grünbaum's objection is pretty clearly a pseudo-dilemma. For he fails to consider the obvious alternative that the cause of the Big Bang operated at to, that is, simultaneously (or coincidentally1) with the Big Bang. Philosophical discussions of causal directionality routinely treat simultaneous causation, the question being how to distinguish A as the cause and B as the effect when these occur together at the same time [Dummett and Flew (1954); Mackie (1966); Suchting (1968-69); Brier (1974), pp. 91-98; Brand (1979)].2 Even on a mundane level, we regularly experience simultaneous causation; to borrow an example from Kant, a heavy ball's resting on a cushion being the cause of a depression in that cushion.3 Indeed, some philosophers argue that all efficient causation is simultaneous, for if the causal conditions sufficient for some event E were present prior to the time t of E's occurrence, then E would happen prior to t; similarly if the causal conditions for E were to vanish at t after having existed at tn < t, then E would not occur at t. In any case, there seems to be no conceptual difficulty in saying that the cause of the origin of the universe acted simultaneously (or coincidentally) with the origination of the universe. We should therefore say that the cause of the origin of the universe is causally prior to the Big Bang, though not temporally prior to the Big Bang. In such a case, the cause may be said to exist spacelessly and timelessly sans the universe, but temporally subsequent to the moment of creation

Sophistry. If simultaneous causation were coherent then one can speculate God is a product of the BB as well. Both could be uncaused, in the case of the pre-BB singularity principle.




That is not true. kalams cosmological argument says "Anything that begins to exist has a cause.

The classical argument states "Everything. Craig has used "Whatever begins", "Anything", "Everything". He plays language games as his audience are laymen Christians. Craig is inconsistant, that is all your have demonstrated to me.



You ask the learned doctors why they say the world was made out of nothing, and they will answer, "Doesn't the Bible say He created the world?" And they infer, from the word create, that it must have been made out of nothing. Now, the word create came from the word baurau, which does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos—chaotic matter, which is element, and in which dwells all the glory. Element had an existence from the time He had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and re-organized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end.

So, we could write that "Anything that is created has a cause", which is exactly the same as saying "Anything that begins to exist has a cause. To further confirm "Things which don’t exist can’t be caused to ‘do’ anything, since they aren’t *there* to be influenced by a cause.”, well, of course, so the singularity was caused to change into the universe. It was created and in all likelihood it was God who caused it. Kalam was never saying that the universe came into existence from nothing as from nothing comes nothing. Kalam was saying that the universe came into existence ex-materia. You learn something new everyday, don't you? That should effectively remedy your claims that premises P1 is very much proved and that we can then move straight onto P2 and the conclusion



Oh, I have got it, only I do not think that you have it. See my previous response.

Why do I care what Joseph Smith thinks? He is neither a philosophy nor physicist. Argument from authority.

I get the fact that you neither understand systems of logic nor physics. Also you have a touch of cognitive dissonance as you refuted your own argument a few pages ago.
 
If I could take any reasonable man, from off the street, who was totally impartial and without mindless bigotry, void of the brain washing techniques of Atheists and open minded enough to learn, I could satisfy his mind, using the scientific knowledge that we currently have, that it is more likely for their to be a God, then not. Even with the little knowledge that I have of the universe we live on a knife edge in, I could demonstrate that a superior force caused the universe to come into existence. Indeed, Kalam's cosmological argument is sufficient to do that on its own, that is, without mentioning the singularity, the Big Bang, rapid expansion, anthropic principle, dark matter and energy, fine tuning, etc etc etc... So why is it that Atheists have such leverage in our society to preach their counterfeit arguments.

If a man wants to know the truth, without a need to subscribe to any groups who all think the same and who all point the same condescending fingure, as there is safety in numbers, then the truth is in the stars for all to see. Why do men need to be told what to believe instead of finding out for themselves by looking at our world that simply could not exist without divinity.

Look at the vast gap between the intelligence of Man and that of our closest counterpart in the animal Kingdom to see how much more intelligent we are to them. Have we evolved that much faster then they have, and if we have, then why have we? Something so fundamentally obvious, both scientifically, cosmological and supernaturally has to have a form of intelligence behind it. It is so obviously God who created the universe and set our planet up for habitation. The "by chance" idea is hugely more improbable then a supernatural being is, yet we readily believe the former. Why? How do atheists reconcile this overwhelming cosmological and intellectual evidence. How is it possible to categorically claim that God does not exist.
we might just turn that around and say how can people claim that there is a god...if i was a god i would create some type of instinct in man when he was born so that he would know that there is a god
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
we might just turn that around and say how can people claim that there is a god...if i was a god i would create some type of instinct in man when he was born so that he would know that there is a god

And that there was one and only one single type of god. The current confusion about what and who God is only points to a very deep uncertainty.
 
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